For all you new Rotex users.....A public service announcement

[Paul G]

1st 4 hr period has begun, the power co asked to forward their appreciation lol

 

[leakyroof]

While I've never had to do the 'hanging' trick with any of my Festool sanders, the only real complaint I have is that the pad brake on my RO 90 grabs the rotation of the sander while in Random Orbit, not Rotex Mode, too aggressively for my tastes.
I was advised to remove it and lightly sand it to thin it out slightly, increasing the gap, but that only worked for a short time. If I'm not alone with that observation, can others chime in? [unsure]

 

[Jmaichel]

I did not "break in my ETS 150 but have decided to break in the DTS using the hanging trick. I originally just tried to put it to use but I could tell it was acting a little funny, I would not classify it as jumpy just inconsistent and very hot! I decided to give the hanging trick a try and see if there is a noticeable difference in performance of the sander.

James

 

[Rick Christopherson]

Sanders and other tools come with brand new brushes with are square-ish on the end. Therefore, they do not conform to the round shape of the armature in the motor.  So, when you first use the tool, the brushes do not make full possible contact. Over time, say the first 8-10 hours of use, the brushes wear in and begin to conform to the shape of the armature. During that time, the sander will run warmer and will not have full potential power. Some users have chosen to sit or hang a tool in a location and run it to expedite this "break in" period.

There you have it. If you have questions, let me know. Note, I cannot watch the video at the moment to comment on its contents.

Shane

Shane, because you did not watch the video to know what it was about, your posting helped perpetuate a myth by sounding like Festool supported it. The original poster was not talking about breaking in the brushes (which isn't required, but I'll come back to that later) he was talking about breaking in the drivetrain and gears of the sander by hanging it from a cord for 8 hours (I believe). There is no need to break in the drivetrain. Yes, letting a tool run continuously for 8 hours is going to wear parts and cause them to loosen up, but it is not necessary. Festool products are designed to operate right out of the box.

As for the break-in period allegedly reducing jitter, that may or may not be correct (I'll make a followup posting on this). However, what it is actually doing is simply reducing the effectiveness of the pad brake by accelerating its wear. When the sander is suspended like this, the pad wants to go into full-freewheel. That's why the brake is there in the first place, to prevent that freewheel. So running the sander in full freewheel for 8 hours is causing excessive wear that you wouldn't encounter with the same 8 hour period of normal usage while sanding.

As for the brushes, Festool specifically designed them so they don't need break-in. The ends of a new brush are not square like they are with many other tool brands. These are Festool, after all. The brushes are already rounded, and they have ribs on them to shorten the amount of time it takes them to conform to the shape of the commutator.

As for a loss of power from new brushes, that's a myth too. The tool contains a PWM electronic speed controller that maintains power to the motor based on feedback from the motor. The controller will give the sander as much power as the motor demands in order to maintain its set-speed. The controller virtually never gives the motor full, available power. It is always running below maximum power, and therefore, you will never notice whether the motor can or cannot achieve 100% power due to the brushes not being fully seated.

[attachimg=#]

 

[mouppe]

Rick, next you'll be claiming you can't reverse an odometer by driving backwards, when Ferris proved it was true.

 

[Jmaichel]

Sanders and other tools come with brand new brushes with are square-ish on the end. Therefore, they do not conform to the round shape of the armature in the motor.  So, when you first use the tool, the brushes do not make full possible contact. Over time, say the first 8-10 hours of use, the brushes wear in and begin to conform to the shape of the armature. During that time, the sander will run warmer and will not have full potential power. Some users have chosen to sit or hang a tool in a location and run it to expedite this "break in" period.

There you have it. If you have questions, let me know. Note, I cannot watch the video at the moment to comment on its contents.

Shane

Shane, because you did not watch the video to know what it was about, your posting helped perpetuate a myth by sounding like Festool supported it. The original poster was not talking about breaking in the brushes (which isn't required, but I'll come back to that later) he was talking about breaking in the drivetrain and gears of the sander by hanging it from a cord for 8 hours (I believe). There is no need to break in the drivetrain. Yes, letting a tool run continuously for 8 hours is going to wear parts and cause them to loosen up, but it is not necessary. Festool products are designed to operate right out of the box.

As for the break-in period allegedly reducing jitter, that may or may not be correct (I'll make a followup posting on this). However, what it is actually doing is simply reducing the effectiveness of the pad brake by accelerating its wear. When the sander is suspended like this, the pad wants to go into full-freewheel. That's why the brake is there in the first place, to prevent that freewheel. So running the sander in full freewheel for 8 hours is causing excessive wear that you wouldn't encounter with the same 8 hour period of normal usage while sanding.

As for the brushes, Festool specifically designed them so they don't need break-in. The ends of a new brush are not square like they are with many other tool brands. These are Festool, after all. The brushes are already rounded, and they have ribs on them to shorten the amount of time it takes them to conform to the shape of the commutator.

As for a loss of power from new brushes, that's a myth too. The tool contains a PWM electronic speed controller that maintains power to the motor based on feedback from the motor. The controller will give the sander as much power as the motor demands in order to maintain its set-speed. The controller virtually never gives the motor full, available power. It is always running below maximum power, and therefore, you will never notice whether the motor can or cannot achieve 100% power due to the brushes not being fully seated.

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I did not watch the video either but more curious to see if there is any noticeable difference when trying the hanging "break in" method. I am not going to let it run for the full eight hours just for four.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

While I've never had to do the 'hanging' trick with any of my Festool sanders, the only real complaint I have is that the pad brake on my RO 90 grabs the rotation of the sander while in Random Orbit, not Rotex Mode, too aggressively for my tastes.
I was advised to remove it and lightly sand it to thin it out slightly, increasing the gap, but that only worked for a short time. If I'm not alone with that observation, can others chime in? [unsure]

You are correct, and I have been discussing this topic for nearly 15 years regarding any electric sander with pad brakes. I even did testing on the principle. Back in 1999 when I was the product editor with American Woodworker Magazine, I tested several ROS sanders with and without their pad brakes installed. The data was very conclusive that when the pad brake was removed, the sanders performed better while sanding.

The purpose of the pad brake is to prevent freewheeling when you are not sanding. When you are sanding, the pad brake tends to reduce the amount of "randomness" in the random-orbit-motion. At the time of my test (I did not perform this on a Festool sander) the Porter Cable sander had the most aggressive pad brake, because it was a rubber o-ring that wrapped around the eccentric flywheel. The difference between having the brake installed versus removed was dramatic. There was also a direct correlation between how effective the brake was versus how much improvement there was when it was removed. The least effective pad brake (I think it was the Makita) showed just a slight improvement when the brake was removed.

Pad brakes were added to electric sanders a couple decades ago because end-users asked for them; not because they improved performance. They serve a purpose when you are not sanding, but hinder performance when you are sanding. It is a situation where end-user demand drove the design (industry wide).

 

[festnoob]

I guess to each his/her own! I think I'll pass on this. If the sander is jumping I can only see user error in balancing as an issue for such beastly motors; it is meant to be aggressive after all. My Ro150 strips wood like a pimp right out of the box. I can't see any benefit to a motor running idly for extended periods.

But like I said, to each their own.
Are Festool sanders awesome? Yes
Are they German engineered? Yes
Are they in need of a break in period? Slightly during normal use is my take.
Do they need to hang idly for 8 hours before use? I don't know, but I doubt it.

Just my opinion.

 

[Paul G]

Rick, thanks for the additional info. So if the pad brake is being worn by the extended break in and the pad brake hinders performance when sanding, then I'm not quite seeing the problem with this break-in? Just trying to better understand here.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

Rick, thanks for the additional info. So if the pad brake is being worn by the extended break in and the pad brake hinders performance when sanding, then I'm not quite seeing the problem with this break-in? Just trying to better understand here.

Think of it by analogy. Let's say you have a car/truck where the new tires were very noisy while driving on the road because they had an aggressive tread. Would you put the car/truck on a dynamometer for 50,000 miles with wear and tear on the engine and transmission just to reduce the tread pattern on the tires? That is what this topic is suggesting that you do.

Regardless what symptom this break-in is alleging to alleviate, it is not doing it, and is simply reducing the life expectancy of the tool for needless reasons. 8 hours of non-stop use is not the same as 8 hours of real use. 

 

[festoolviking]

Hi

My "break in"-period was achieved during use of the sander and hooked up to my vac. Isn't hooking it up to a vac to consider aswell if you're hanging it up for "brake-in"? My opinion is that the vac is providing a "cooling" effect on the sander apart from DC. Any opinions on this?

Festoolviking  [smile]

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

Think of it by analogy. Let's say you have a car/truck where the new tires were very noisy while driving on the road because they had an aggressive tread. Would you put the car/truck on a dynamometer for 50,000 miles with wear and tear on the engine and transmission just to reduce the tread pattern on the tires? That is what this topic is suggesting that you do.

Regardless what symptom this break-in is alleging to alleviate, it is not doing it, and is simply reducing the life expectancy of the tool for needless reasons. 8 hours of non-stop use is not the same as 8 hours of real use. 

I don't think comparing 50,000 on a vehicle is an accurate comparison to 8 hours on a sander. Nor a sound to a jitter.

Our tools are in fact designed to be used non-stop through a work day, so eight hours. I note I did not say left running without resistance or normal use for 8 hours. If I'm not mistaken, part of the testing process for tools is to run them continuously for a heck of a lot longer than 8 hours, somewhere in the order of many weeks.

Let me just say this... If you are having difficulty with a tool, be it the Rotex or any other tool, please take advantage of our knowledge support staff. Call the service department or talk to one of our application specialists. They are in the best position to give you guidance on how to overcome any issue you have or to offer repair if they believe there is a problem with the tool. It may save you some frustration.

Edit: For the record, at no point in my previous post did I advocate hanging a sander up and letting it run non-stop for 8 hours. What I did say is that based on information shared with me, there is a period of time where the tool is not at its maximum performance level due to the brushes not being fully seated. Just normal use is adequate to take care of this. I did mention that technique, sander speed, using a low grit, working on an extremely uneven or narrow surface, and even potentially suction can contribute to issues.

I don't take tools apart, but the brush I was shown from an RO 150 REQ was about 4" long and square on the ends. That was in summer of 2011.

Shane

 

[Michael Kellough]

What exactly is this "pad brake"? Nothing in the ecat matches that name or description.

 

[Paul G]

well I did the process today, will be doing some sanding in the next day or two to evaluate any perceived impact.

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

What exactly is this "pad brake"? Nothing in the ecat matches that name or description.

Michael, the pad brake is the rubber collar or boot that's just above the pad. It makes some contact with the pad to help prevent it from spinning wildly and can also help prevent incidental gouging of your material as you sit the sander down. Which could be a whole separate debate (which has also be argued here on the forum) about whether to start the sander on or off the material. Regardless of your position on that, if you turn the sander off and then sit it down, without a pad brake the pad could still be spinning and cause scuffing of your finish.

Part #53 on the RO 150 FEQ drawing, #479703, "Collar"

Shane

 

[Michael Kellough]

"Michael, the pad brake is the rubber collar or boot that's just above the pad."

That's what I thought Shane. I knew the collar had that effect but it also directs/maintains the suction from the dust extractor.

"...prevent it from spinning wildly..."

That function is clear but one thing I've always found a bit mysterious is why the pad starts rotating when you push something against, when the sander is running in air? Seems like that would force the pad against the rubber edge of the collar and keep it from rotating. (Referencing an ES sander not a Rotex)

 

[festnoob]

Edit: For the record, at no point in my previous post did I advocate hanging a sander up and letting it run non-stop for 8 hours. What I did say is that based on information shared with me, there is a period of time where the tool is not at its maximum performance level due to the brushes not being fully seated. Just normal use is adequate to take care of this. I did mention that technique, sander speed, using a low grit, working on an extremely uneven or narrow surface, and even potentially suction can contribute to issues.

I don't take tools apart, but the brush I was shown from an RO 150 REQ was about 4" long and square on the ends. That was in summer of 2011.

Shane

That's all I needed to read!

 

[Paul G]

Edit: For the record, at no point in my previous post did I advocate hanging a sander up and letting it run non-stop for 8 hours. What I did say is that based on information shared with me, there is a period of time where the tool is not at its maximum performance level due to the brushes not being fully seated. Just normal use is adequate to take care of this. I did mention that technique, sander speed, using a low grit, working on an extremely uneven or narrow surface, and even potentially suction can contribute to issues.

I don't take tools apart, but the brush I was shown from an RO 150 REQ was about 4" long and square on the ends. That was in summer of 2011.

Shane

That's all I needed to read!

I didn't take that as a warning not to either, nor am I suggesting Shane needs to take a side on this beyond what he's already stated.

 

[festnoob]

Edit: For the record, at no point in my previous post did I advocate hanging a sander up and letting it run non-stop for 8 hours. What I did say is that based on information shared with me, there is a period of time where the tool is not at its maximum performance level due to the brushes not being fully seated. Just normal use is adequate to take care of this. I did mention that technique, sander speed, using a low grit, working on an extremely uneven or narrow surface, and even potentially suction can contribute to issues.

I don't take tools apart, but the brush I was shown from an RO 150 REQ was about 4" long and square on the ends. That was in summer of 2011.

Shane

That's all I needed to read!

I didn't take that as a warning not to either, nor am I suggesting Shane needs to take a side on this beyond what he's already stated.

If Festool thought we had to "break-in" our sanders I'm sure they would've told us. In the end, it's your sander.
If you simply use your sander the way it's meant to be used it'll "break-in" without a hanging  and you'll be "making your gears happy."

 

[Scott B.]

There are a couple of different ways to look at this.

The "break in" discussion. All of the sanders are sensitive to a few factors...base pad, abrasive, motor speed, extraction rate, substrate. Its a different type of sanding tool than most commercially available, given the systemic nature.

So, Alex is kind of right that maybe its a good thing to just use the tool through that awkward phase, where you are trying to figure out the tool right at the same time as the tool is trying to figure out its own attitude, and then you appreciate that it just becomes a joy to use within 4 hours of actual use.

But I do think Eric's video will help alot of weekend users of sanders, who maybe don't even sand 4 hours in a year, to get to a more accessible sanding experience faster by giving the tool some hang time to sort its own attitude out. This would help the learning curve of a part time user. To a new user, Rotex is a very different type of sanding, especially in low grits.

For me, I sometimes sand 4 hours in a morning so its a bit of a moot point. I do find that the sanders become more enjoyable with age, but its symbiotic and paralleled by your own understanding of the tool and skill/comfort level with it.

Sanders are different from bladed tools. It does need to be as simple as possible. There is really no misinformation or rumor risk about it. Its a different experience for everyone, based on the path that led them to the tool, and how it fits into their life.

Overall, yes, I can use a sander professionally right out of the box and figure it out pretty quick, in terms of what I am doing for a task. I do definitely believe that Rotex sanders become much more user friendly after they have a little mud on the tires.

There are similar urban legends around snowboards and bicycles and all other fun things in life. The important part is to enjoy them.