For Precision Tool Lovers - L.S. Starrett Company Factory Tour Series

[peter halle]

I ran across this series of factory tour videos and thought some might find them interesting.

Peter

 

[tjbnwi]

I subscribe to Adam on YT, learned a lot from his videos.

Tom

 

[Cheese]

I ran across this series of factory tour videos and thought some might find them interesting.

Thanks for popping this back up on my radar screen Peter.  [smile]  I was sent the Starrett 1st tour edition about 3 weeks ago, I meant to bring this up on the FOG because I was totally stunned at the amount of old tooling Starrett still uses. Modern production machining with small Hardinge tool room lathes is beyond my comprehension. These lathes, being as accurate as any that are available today, were never designed to manufacture the quantities of precision parts that need to be machined today. 50 years ago when these lathes were in their element, because they were machinist driven rather than CNC driven, if they produced a single part every 5 minutes, that would be noteworthy. That same part produced in a modern Haas CNC lathe would take 30 seconds.

Tour 1 was interesting just to see all of the old tooling Starrett still uses. I now better understand the reason for Starrett pricing...it isn't gouging but it's simply based on time & materials.  [smile]  They are still trying to compete in a CNC world by machining small batches of parts that are then handled/sorted/measured by an individual.

As much as I like and support Starrett tools, they did shoot themselves in the foot many years ago by not procuring and installing CNC equipment that would have theoretically made them very competitive price wise, in the modern tooling market. They certainly saw the trend changing, but never positioned themselves to take advantage of that trend line. That was unfortunate...they seemed to think that the manual production of parts was part of the Starrett MAGIC...they weren't wrong necessarily, but they were also not correct. Time has slowly forced them to produce some of their tools in China and that could have been eliminated if they had reacted quicker.

 

[smorgasbord]

Great post [member=44099]Cheese[/member]

 

[six-point socket II]

A-M-A-Z-I-N-G !!!

Very well put [member=44099]Cheese[/member] !!!

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[usernumber1]

interesting timing
https://www.atholdailynews.com/Starrett-announces-merger-agreement-54362471

 

[Cheese]

interesting timing
https://www.atholdailynews.com/Starrett-announces-merger-agreement-54362471

Well now that's interesting... [scratch chin]

When I watched the 1st Tour I was surprised that Starrett would allow someone to come in and video record their operations. A personal walking tour usually includes the dreaded "No Camera Policy". Maybe the merger was partly responsible?

 

[squall_line]

I have a hard time calling a private equity acquisition a "Merger", but maybe I'm just too cynical.

 

[smorgasbord]

The question is whether the company is going private to enable easier investment in modernizing the company's processes (see [member=44099]Cheese[/member] 's post above) to either make money as a going concern or re-enter the public market afterwards, or whether they want to trade on the Starrett name and start offering cheaper products produced overseas. Look at Harvey purchasing Bridge City Tool Works for one example of how this might go.

Actually, looking up MiddleGround Capital (https://middleground.com/companies/ ) they say about themselves:

Our hands-on operational approach, combined with strategic third-party resources, jointly help to benefit a business and position it for sale as a market-leading company in its field. We are active partners. You can rely on us to be fair, provide guidance when things are going well and to get involved when times are less certain.

So, looks like they're buying it to re-sell it later. Here's their tear-sheet on how they choose what to buy:
[attachimg=1]

That said, Chinese companies like Hongdui have shown that a good path is to purchase some CNC machines and have good enough design (Hongdui isn't just a copy-cat Chinese company, although they have done some rip off copies) to produce good products at reasonable prices. Heck, just look at what's happened to try squares in the past several years: Quality has gone way up and prices way down.

Other companies have gone down the path of "affordable" lines that trade on their previous high quality name to offer decent stuff at decent prices. But, we've also see junk being sold under names that were once associated with high quality, too.

 

[Mortiser]

"Our hands-on operational approach, combined with strategic third-party resources, jointly help to benefit a business and position it for sale as a market-leading company in its field."

This looks like the real story... Middleground is going to "help position" Starrett so that it can be sold to someone who wants to leverage the brand. [member=44099]Cheese[/member] nailed it, they did not update when they should have and now they are too far behind the curve.

 

[FestitaMakool]

Very good summary Cheese  [wink]
Starrett must have realised that they’re missing out.
Although, precision squares in CNC’d aluminium have stretched far up in price lately.

I have dropped a couple of speed squares lately, onto concrete and rocks  [blink].. and there’s a bit filing to be done each time to “de-burr” them. Yes, you should not! drop your squares, but it happens.
My old Sandvik and other squares have held up very well made in steel (Although the Sandvik has a narrow cheek made in aluminium).
I’m hesitant to buy to much aluminium that will be swung around a lot..  [big grin]

 

[rmwarren]

How many 30 year olds did you see operating those manual machines?

Demographics is the death blow to many old line companies. As [member=44099]Cheese[/member] pointed out relative to manufacturing processes, they may have passed the tipping point in more ways than one.

EDIT: It just occurred to me that modernization of the processes may be the only way out of having an aging workforce. It's easier to transition to CNC with operators trained in a few years than it is to spend 10-20 years training someone to replace a retiring machinist.

RMW

 

[Cheese]

How many 30 year olds did you see operating those manual machines?

Demographics is the death blow to many old line companies. As [member=44099]Cheese[/member] pointed out relative to manufacturing processes, they may have passed the tipping point in more ways than one.

EDIT: It just occurred to me that modernization of the processes may be the only way out of having an aging workforce. It's easier to transition to CNC with operators trained in a few years than it is to spend 10-20 years training someone to replace a retiring machinist.

RMW

Ya Richard you nailed it, the old school thinks only about the cost of the capital equipment and then their eyes glaze over and they decide that the cost of the capital equipment is too expensive to implement. They don't factor in that the new capital equipment is basically "smart" and it doesn't take very long to get things up and running because the feedback is digital. The entry cost is high initially but over 10 years, I believe you could easily justify the expense vs the profit.

A machinist on the other hand can take years to get up and running because his/her feedback is through the school of hard knocks which necessarily demands time...time...time.

So it is indeed a sad state of affairs...my thought is this new "Merger" group will clean up the manufacturing building, clean up the manufacturing cells (that don't exist), clean up the balance statement and then put Starrett on the auction block for the highest (probably Chinese) bid. And then...another icon truly bites the dust...

So sad, I've noticed the same gradual transformation with Brown & Sharpe/Interapid/Etalon/Tesa...most of their new products are coming from China. I'm just glad I purchased most of my measuring instruments 20-40 years ago. In the last few years, Starrett really was the last bastion of precision measuring tools.

I'm sure in the future, Starrett granite plates will start to ship from China instead of Minnesota.  [mad] [mad] [mad]

 

[rmwarren]

[member=44099]Cheese[/member] I'm slightly regretting selling off a bunch of Starrett I didn't/don't need and (more importantly) didn't use. Micrometers, inside bore gauges, etc. I still have no use for the tools but the thought I may not be able to replace them (at an acceptable price) if I ever did bums me out.

I recall when Made in China "machine tools" meant inferior quality, filler and hand work covered up with paint. Now they are mostly made on European/US CNC equipment and, aside from the global race to the bottom price competition, the actual quality isn't much different than other mass-market sources.

While I highly respect Woodpecker's leadership in US made precision woodworking tools, I'm not sure I'd notice the difference in most use cases. For the record, I am not advocating for imports versus paying what it takes to buy from domestic producers. I'm merely saying that the difference in product quality may not be that great. And stealing/copying IP... [censored]

QC is the deciding factor, if you let junk leave the shipping dock, it's junk. If you have comparable production equipment, materials, & rigid QC, then junk never leaves the dock and what does ship is probably indiscernible.

The few Bangood/Ali Baba "precision" items I've purchased have been good quality. Case in point are metric gauge blocks, they caliper out (with my import calipers...) at the stated dimensions. Metric blocks simply are not available aside from these import sources, at any price.

FWIW, I loved the look and vibe of Starrett's facilities. I could wander around here for days fondling those tools and fiddling with fixtures. The old wood floors...

Must be time for bed.

RMW

 

[Peter Kelly]

The few Bangood/Ali Baba "precision" items I've purchased have been good quality. Case in point are metric gauge blocks, they caliper out (with my import calipers...) at the stated dimensions. Metric blocks simply are not available aside from these import sources, at any price.

Not sure I follow. Precision metric gauge blocks from Starrett, Mahr, etc. are widely available from the usual retailers. Even Amazon sells the grade 0 ones from Mitutoyo. Not inexpensive but pretty easy to come by.

 

[rmwarren]

Sorry Peter, to clarify I'm referring to the woodworking variety, not the small ones used for setting up sine plates etc.

AND... I was mistaken, Woodpeckers seems to sell them now. Back when I got my first set they were a OTT and I found them used.

RMW

 

[Peter Kelly]

Lee Valley has something similar in metric sizes as well.https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/sho...ing-and-measuring/45089-veritas-set-up-blocks

Bit less spendy than the Woodpeckers assortments.

 

[rmwarren]

I checked that box with 4 sets from Alibaba for around the cost of one from WP.

Sorry if I got the thread sidetracked, all that yacking was basically to say that the quality of imported precision items is basically equal to domesticly produced stuff and due to the investment made in CNC production. Conversely it appears that Starrett failed to make the investment and may be facing challenges due to an aging labor force. Or I may be all wet.

RMW

 

[smorgasbord]

The Hooked On Wood guy found that the Veritas set wasn't that accurate, see

Banggood currently offers two different sets of metric 123 (25-50-75) blocks:

This set is about $26 now and has these specs:
Material: Hardened steel
Size(L*W*H): 25x50x75mm
Precision: ±0.005mm

0.005mm is about 0.0002", same as Vertias' set (assuming Veritas meant "+/-" in their description).

This set is about $40 now (comes in a plastic case with some bolts and a hex wrench) and has these specs :
Material: Hardened Stainless Steel
Holes: 23 in total, 5 holes tapped to 3/8-16
Squareness: 0.0001"
Parallelism: +/- 0.0001"
Height Accuracy in Pair: +/- 0.0001"
Dimensions: 25-50-75mm

Weird that they'd tap Imperial holes in metric sized blocks, but seems their tolerances are stated a bit tighter (immaterial for woodworking use).

There's also this set of slip "gage" blocks for under $65:https://www.banggood.com/32pcs-Stee...locks-1_005-50mm-Measure-Tools-p-1768767.html
They come with inspection test results. They're also the set the Hooked On Wood guy reviews in the video above, and liked, but he didn't have accurate enough measuring tools (no micrometer, for instance).