"Fried" TS55 and Electrical Requirements

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mculik5

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Joined
Dec 20, 2013
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My question for this topic deals with electrical requirements for Festools. Below is the background story that has prompted me to ask this question.

STORY
I'm a hobbyist woodworker and DIYer. I recently purchased a TS55 REQ to feed my Festool addic add to my growing collection of Festools. I love the saw and have nothing but good things to say about it.

However, while I was working the other day, the saw started acting weird. I was cutting 5/4 pine, and mid-way through my cuts, the saw started slowing down. I thought I was pushing too hard, so I slowed down, but the saw didn't pick up speed. This happened a few times. At the time, the saw was plugged into my CT MIDI, which was plugged into a 15A outlet. It didn't make sense to me that insufficient power from the outlet would slow the saw down mid-way through a cut (the saw would slow down right away, probably followed by a breaker trip, if insufficient power were the case, right?), but I decided to switch to a 20A outlet anyway. At first, this seemed to fix the problem. However, as I began my second-to-last cut (of course), the saw started for less than 1/2 second, then stopped...and wouldn't start again.

At first, I thought it had overheated or something, so I let it sit for about 30 minutes. Then I tried all kinds of combinations of Plug-It cords, dust collectors, straight outlets, tests with other tools, etc. to try to isolate the problem. Unfortunately, no matter what I did, the saw wouldn't start, thus isolating the problem at the saw.

I contacted Festool customer service right away. Fortunately, this has been my first experience with Festool customer service, and I am IMPRESSED. So impressed that I almost don't even care that the saw is broken. It will obviously be getting fixed, and I won't be paying for anything. Furthermore, I was able to talk to an intelligent human, and the shipping, both ways, is overnight on Festool's dime. If that's not great customer service, I don't know what is.

The person I talked to said the culprit is likely a problem with the saw speed controller. I guess we'll find out.

QUESTION
First of all, has this problem happened to anyone else?

Second, all of this got me thinking about the electrical requirements for Festools. The CT MIDI draws 1200 watts at max suction. The TS55 REQ also draws 1200 watts. My OF1400 draws 1400 watts. A Kapex (wish I could say "My Kapex...") draws 1600 watts. And according to the specs I've read, the power outlet on the CT MIDI is rated for up to 2400 watts.

In theory, a CT MIDI and attached tool could be drawing up to 3600 watts. In the US, at 120V, this is 30A. The largest commonly available outlet in the US that matches the plug on the US CT MIDI is 20A/2400 watts. My CT MIDI at max suction and OF1400 exceed this.

That said, I completed a huge routing project with the OF1400 and CT MIDI at max suction plugged into the 15A outlet I mentioned before. And it worked fine.

Do you guys commonly use 15A outlets and not worry about it? Do you turn the suction down? I can't imagine that with mobile craftsmen in mind, and recognizing that people may use extension cords, etc., Festool hasn't given some thought to this, but the tool spec numbers don't seem to support it.

Any thoughts? Is using a 15A outlet "hurting" my tools? Could I have inadvertently fried the speed controller by not providing enough power?

Thanks.
 
I plug mine into a standard 20A outlet. I even run my Kapex on that outlet with my CT33
 
Don T said:
I plug mine into a standard 20A outlet. I even run my Kapex on that outlet with my CT33
Click to expand...

by "outlet" you mean "breaker"?

I've never thought to map out the customers panel and find a 20amp circuit vs a 15amp… is this something I need to do?
 
Some people see nothing wrong with putting a 20-amp "device" on a 15-amp circuit.  By "device" I mean receptacle, switch, socket, etc.  My earliest training taught me that NO device on any circuit should be rated at a higher ampacity than the circuit conductors or breaker can support.  That having been said, I commonly use my TS 55 with the CT 22 on a 15 amp circuit with no problem whatsoever.  I have both 15 and 20 amp circuits in my shop and both are clearly identifiable by the receptacle configuration.  The 15 amp circuits get a NEMA 5-15R receptacle and the 20 amp circuits get a NEMA 5-20R receptacle for quick visual; identification.  Duburban, outlet is NOT the same as breaker.  

 
You can identify 15A/20A outlets by the prong holes. A 15A (NEMA 5-15R) outlet has two vertical prongs, plus the ground prong below and between the two vertical prongs. A 20A (NEMA 5-20R) outlet has one vertical prong on the right, a sideways T prong on the left, plus the ground prong.

20A plugs use the sideways part of the T prong. This allows standard plugs and 20A plugs to fit into a 20A outlet, but prevents 20A plugs from fitting into a 15A outlet.

To Sparktrician's point, just because the outlet is 20A doesn't mean the breaker is, and it's the breaker that really matters. More than being a bad idea, I believe it is against code to have 20A outlets on 15A circuits (though you can have 15A outlets on 20A circuits). Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, though.

All that stuff aside, what confuses me is the numbers not adding up. According to the specs, when I'm using my CT MIDI and OF 1400, I'm pulling 2600 watts, which at 120V is ~22A. Yet the CT MIDI plug is a standard (non-20A) plug, and to Sparktrician's point, I've done tons of routing via a 15A circuit without tripping the breaker.

German watts are the same as American watts, right? ;-) What am I missing here?
 
mculik5 said:
You can identify 15A/20A outlets by the prong holes. A 15A (NEMA 5-15R) outlet has two vertical prongs, plus the ground prong below and between the two vertical prongs. A 20A (NEMA 5-20R) outlet has one vertical prong on the right, a sideways T prong on the left, plus the ground prong.

20A plugs use the sideways part of the T prong. This allows standard plugs and 20A plugs to fit into a 20A outlet, but prevents 20A plugs from fitting into a 15A outlet.

To Sparktrician's point, just because the outlet is 20A doesn't mean the breaker is, and it's the breaker that really matters. More than being a bad idea, I believe it is against code to have 20A outlets on 15A circuits (though you can have 15A outlets on 20A circuits). Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, though.

All that stuff aside, what confuses me is the numbers not adding up. According to the specs, when I'm using my CT MIDI and OF 1400, I'm pulling 2600 watts, which at 120V is ~22A. Yet the CT MIDI plug is a standard (non-20A) plug, and to Sparktrician's point, I've done tons of routing via a 15A circuit without tripping the breaker.

German watts are the same as American watts, right? ;-) What am I missing here?
Click to expand...

Actually, it is the wire gauge that really matters.

The label list maximum wattage. Odds are you have not reach the maximum current draw.

Please don't try this at home;



Tom
 
[Summary:
A TS75 and CT36 could likely run continuously for 1.5 hours before tripping a 15 Amp breaker with 14 AWG mains wiring and a 25 C ambient temperature.
At a 40 C ambient temperature, the breaker in the example is likely to trip after 40 seconds to 25 minutes with the same 23 A load.]

Many residential circuit breakers trips according to a time versus current and ambient temperature relationship.  A 15 A circuit breaker does not instantly trip for a 15.1 A load.  Breaker tripping depends on how long the overload lasts.

For example, here is the trip curve of an Eaton/Cutler-Hammer 15 A circuit breaker.
http://www.eaton.com/ecm/idcplg?IdcService=GET_FILE&allowInterrupt=1&RevisionSelectionMethod=LatestReleased&noSaveAs=0&Rendition=Primary&dDocName=1063683065156

Using the graph on page 1 of the linked PDF document, the Eaton/Cutler-Hammer Type BR 15 A circuit breaker will likely trip sometime after 40 seconds to 25 minutes (1500 seconds) at an ambient temperature of 40 C/104 F when a TS75 and CT36 run continuously at maximum current, 13 A and 10A respectively, which is  about 150% (23 A/15 A) of the breakers 15 A rating.  My eyeball extrapolation of the 25 C/77 F graph is that  maximum circuit breaker trip time is about at the 1.5 hour point of continuous operation at maximum current draw.

I don't know how long a CT will run when current draw is 23 A. Maybe a CT would quit before a breaker tripped.
 
mculik5 said:
To Sparktrician's point, just because the outlet is 20A doesn't mean the breaker is, and it's the breaker that really matters. More than being a bad idea, I believe it is against code to have 20A outlets on 15A circuits (though you can have 15A outlets on 20A circuits). Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, though.
Click to expand...

It's simply a bad idea to mismatch breaker/wire gauge/device.  Anyone should be able to identify the ampacity of a circuit by looking at the breaker, wire gauge or device configuration.  There should be no mismatch anywhere on a given circuit.

mculik5 said:
All that stuff aside, what confuses me is the numbers not adding up. According to the specs, when I'm using my CT MIDI and OF 1400, I'm pulling 2600 watts, which at 120V is ~22A. Yet the CT MIDI plug is a standard (non-20A) plug, and to Sparktrician's point, I've done tons of routing via a 15A circuit without tripping the breaker.

German watts are the same as American watts, right? ;-) What am I missing here?
Click to expand...

Amps is amps is amps, whether American, German, Canadian, ad nauseum.  The formula is very simple - P=EI, where Power measured in Watts equals Energy measured in Voltage times Intensity measured in Amps. 

Breakers don't trip the very instant that current rating is exceeded by even the most infinitesimal amount until they get to a preset threshold.  As mentioned earlier, it takes time to trip the breaker.  Most breakers I deal with trip with a 135% overload or greater immediately, but with smaller overloads, it's a longer interval.

 
tjbnwi said:
Actually, it is the wire gauge that really matters.
Click to expand...
Maybe that's it; a voltage drop.

  mculik5, are you using any 18 gauge extension cords with your set-up or using  a branch circuit that has over 50 feet of 14 AWG?
 
I agree with atlr - this is almost certainly an unrelated failure of the saw. But in the moment, I thought maybe an overload, voltage drop, etc., had "fried" the electronics in the saw. That got me thinking about all this electricity stuff, hence the forum post.

Regarding extension cords, I'm not using any. I have a small house, so I have to work outside. The 15A circuit I use is on my porch. I plug the CT right into that. The 20A circuit is in my garage, and the CT cord is just long enough that I don't need any extension cords to use that one, either.

Regarding branch circuit length, the 15A circuit is probably 25', and the 20A circuit is right next to the panel.

Going forward, I'll be using the 20A circuit.

Appreciate all the replies.
 
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