Full overlay vs. inset...

[tiralie]

This has come up a lot in recent discussions on my visit to my brother and sister-in-law in Houston Texas. Seems that after making inset door and drawers for my brothers kitchen, (Picture below) the company that built them will not do them for others who have seen them and like them.

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Their explanation is that after doing them the first time for my sister-in-law they just can/will not do them.
Their excuse is they are too difficult.
I find this hard to believe.

Inset cabinets do cost more (time) but it seems this is not the reason clients are given as to why they are not offered as a choice.

A search on Houzz seems to indicate that people are happy/like with full over lay over the more costly inset cabinets, but cost doesn't seem to be the only factor.

Are inset cabinets less in demand/appealing for reasons other than cost?
Tim

 

[Billedis]

I personally like the overlay style, but not the full overlay, just 1/2".  Inset is fine in some situations as well, however, it does increase the cost unless you do raised panel drawer fronts which I like as well.  Bill

 

[Rollin22Petes]

That really doesn't make any since to me 90% percent of all the cabinets we do are all inset the only difference between that and overlay is you really need to make sure your cabinets and doors are square or your margins around the door will be off or rub in some areas but have a big gap in others. I would really question a shop that wouldn't do them because they say they are to difficult I have never said that to a client. The only time it really adds any significant cost is if the customer wants beaded face frames still not difficult for a quality shop just one added step as you have to allow for the bead and of course apply all the bead. One other thing to note I have seen a lot of shops allow 1/8'' margins around there doors that's to much it needs to be only 1/16 '' to give you the best look.   

 

[Linbro]

Sounds like the company lost money, big time, on the job - once bitten...?

I'm constantly surprised how much unskilled labour is used in the cabinet industry. I guess it's one area of the building industry that can be simplified, and good design, skill etc. go out the window. I know a lot of cabinetmakers that wouldn't take on/be able to do a faceframe kitchen.
I'm new to face frame joinery, as I was brought up on frameless. Renovating my toilet and laundry at home at the moment, and have used a beaded face frame with inset doors - very satisfying. And the CMS makes it a very enjoyable process!
Lincoln.

 

[Rollin22Petes]

Linbro 

You bring up a sad but true point there is a lot of unskilled labor in the professional cabinet world.  I have had to deal with it for years in the hiring process seems nobody cares about the quality of there work anymore. Having said that as a professional woodworker I have seen some projects on here and other forums that were very impressive for guys that do it as a hobby.

 

[WastedP]

I built my own personal kitchen with frameless and framed inset cabinets.  Each has it's advantages and disadvantages.  I first learned to install framed cabinetry, with occasional frameless cabs, and I hated them.  After I sold and spent a lot of time with frameless, I found them easier to install.  However, inset cabinetry never seems to be easy to install, it needs to be installed pretty much perfectly.  I am okay with that, but there may be some shops that don't want to spend that kind of time on install, or might not know how to charge for it.  Also, any area with wide temp and humidity swings through the four seasons makes inset cabinetry a tougher row to hoe, since customers will complain things get dry (here, it's usually January/February) and doors stick.

I have been working with a cheaper brand of cabinets of late, and the rep told me to discourage people from buying inset cabinets because of customer satisfaction issues.  I thought that was kind of sad, especially since painted inset cabinetry with apron sinks are "in" right now.  Their production system is pretty slap-dash and low-skilled, so it's easy to see why they wouldn't want to deal with inset.  But they'll drop off an "all plywood" box that has the appearance of a cabinet, four weeks after you order.  A lot of customers don't seem to have the patience for a cabinet with a longer lead time.

 

[#Tee]

ya i like the overlay, the inset takes up real estate and doesnt look any better vs overlay. also inset with the tight fit will cause jamming issues with humidity and you will see the ugly even gaps. i dont see any benefits with inset over overlay.

 

[junk731]

Tim the company probably blew their budget and really didn't know what they were getting into or have the skill level required for inset cabinets. There are several inconsistencies in the design of the various cabs in the pic. The skill needed to install inset is also higher. install any large cab slightly skewed and you have a very evident nightmare with gap misalignment. Couple this all together and you get their new policy.

John

 

[Rollin22Petes]

John

You bring a very good point not every person or shop has the skill level to do inset properly and as you stated one cabinet out of square can multiply into a huge mess if you are not careful. I guess I have done them for so long it's second nature

 

[Tyler Ernsberger]

Not only does it take a good shop with good carpenters.  It also takes a good installer.  If a installer doesnt take his time and make sure all the cabinets are square and level,  it will make margins around the door impossible.   

 

[sae]

Sounds like he doesn't have the skills, nor the ability to subcontract?

I'm not sure why he would flat out refuse business when he hasn't even put a dollar figure on it.

 

[Rollin22Petes]

That's another great point we are very fortunate that our installer also doubles as the hardware guy fitting doors & drawers so he knows first hand about proper installation because if something is wrong he's the guy that has to fix it  [wink]

 

[mastercabman]

Inset are a little bit harder to make(more labor in the "beaded inset")
Not too many cabinet manufacturer offers inset
We carry a line of cabinets that started making inset about 5-6 years ago and they are not charging more than full overlay
They do a pretty good job
I have seen local custom shop inset and it just does not look good at all

 

[Sparktrician]

Overlay doors make it easy to conceal sloppy cabinet installations that are made obvious by inset doors. 

 

[Hurricane Whisperer]

The most beautiful cabinets and fine furniture feature inset doors and drawers.  For most cabinets, I find that full overlay frameless beat out overlay framed with some exceptions.

Overlayed doors are going to be easier to produce and install and for the majority of purchasers of practical kitchen cabinets, the best value.  Frameless cabinets also provide quite a bit more room with less wasted space.

If you have built a business around providing economical overlayed doors, then you may not find the occasional customer who wants inset AND wants to pay for it also to be worth disrupting your shop for the vast majority of production.

If a shop is in the right market with customers with large kitchens and the money to fill them with the best, then you really can't beat an inset door for beauty.  But Houston is built on clay that we call gumbo and the houses are typically built on slabs with no piers put in.  The clay expands and contracts and foundations move and crown molding shows gaps, sheet rock corners crack and doors become easy or difficult to open depending on the amount of rain or drought we have.  That's when the calls go out to have piers installed under the house which typically means the perimeter only.

 

[tiralie]

Tim the company probably blew their budget and really didn't know what they were getting into or have the skill level required for inset cabinets.

Yes I agree, although the installation is not as good as it could be so they saved some costs there.

There are several inconsistencies in the design of the various cabs in the pic.

Are you referring to the design or the installation/build?

The skill needed to install inset is also higher. install any large cab slightly skewed and you have a very evident nightmare with gap misalignment. Couple this all together and you get their new policy.

I don't get the outright refusal to quote inset cabinets. Even if the client is difficult, you would think a high price would scare them off rather than refusing to do the project. After all the sunk costs on the first one, you would think that the organization would have learned something about what to improve and how to price it. It's a head scratcher.
Tim

 

[tiralie]

If you have built a business around providing economical overlayed doors, then you may not find the occasional customer who wants inset AND wants to pay for it also to be worth disrupting your shop for the vast majority of production.

Ya, that is what has me confused, if your shop is set up to do overlayed doors and you take on a project to do inset when you haven't done them before wouldn't you want to leverage that experience into more work and (perhaps) high margin work?

But Houston is built on clay that we call gumbo and the houses are typically built on slabs with no piers put in.  The clay expands and contracts and foundations move and crown molding shows gaps, sheet rock corners crack and doors become easy or difficult to open depending on the amount of rain or drought we have.  That's when the calls go out to have piers installed under the house which typically means the perimeter only.

These are custom built homes in the $1 million range. I watched them put the piers in. Not the same kind of construction as the north east with basements and foundations but interesting.
Tim

 

[junk731]

There are several inconsistencies in the design of the various cabs in the pic.

Are you referring to the design or the installation/build?

I don't get the outright refusal to quote inset cabinets. Even if the client is difficult, you would think a high price would scare them off rather than refusing to do the project. After all the sunk costs on the first one, you would think that the organization would have learned something about what to improve and how to price it. It's a head scratcher.
Tim
[/quote]

The easiest cabs to see the major differences are above the fridge, stove exhaust hood and over the microwave. There is no face frame like divider between the doors on the microwave cab.

The refusal to quote means they want to stick to what they know and don't want new challenges with their setup and method of work. Tim I don't think every company wants new diversions, they tend to cost lots of money.

John

 

[Hurricane Whisperer]

If you have built a business around providing economical overlayed doors, then you may not find the occasional customer who wants inset AND wants to pay for it also to be worth disrupting your shop for the vast majority of production.

Ya, that is what has me confused, if your shop is set up to do overlayed doors and you take on a project to do inset when you haven't done them before wouldn't you want to leverage that experience into more work and (perhaps) high margin work?

But Houston is built on clay that we call gumbo and the houses are typically built on slabs with no piers put in.  The clay expands and contracts and foundations move and crown molding shows gaps, sheet rock corners crack and doors become easy or difficult to open depending on the amount of rain or drought we have.  That's when the calls go out to have piers installed under the house which typically means the perimeter only.

These are custom built homes in the $1 million range. I watched them put the piers in. Not the same kind of construction as the north east with basements and foundations but interesting.
Tim

I agree, that it seems a waste not to capitalize on the effort.  However, in order to sustain it, you need to purchase equipment, train and retain craftsman, and have a sufficient market.  The business is probably going with the odds.

 

[WastedP]

The easiest cabs to see the major differences are above the fridge, stove exhaust hood and over the microwave. There is no face frame like divider between the doors on the microwave cab.

I think that's just the difference between a single opening with butted doors and a frame with a center stile between the doors.  That usually boils down to customer preference, but there are limits.  I don't like to do single doors over 24" wide; with inset doors I would use butted doors to maximize access to the cabinet.

I would expect that the short, wide doors above the built-in refrigerator will never, ever have even reveals around them.

I have seen a shop that can build hundreds of frameless cabinets in a week struggle to build a single faceframe kitchen in the same time frame, but they charged for it.