Getting a Fuji Q4 Gold, What do I need.... Tim...Scott...Tom..Others?

[Mauri Motti]

Oh man what is this difficult. truth is I waited to long getting one. Now I have to get one (like asap) and after the research I have done before, I came to the Q4. Have participated in many earlier discussions here at fog on the how and what. Scott is in favour of the Apollo 1050vr as I remember but its too many bucks for me. I did consider the Apollo 1035 as it's within in my price range but ok, the Fuji it'll be. I do everything I do by brush and every time a big project comes including painting I think to myself, oh boy if I could just spray this decently I would save so much time.. Now I'm in one of those projects again literally painting many kilometers of wood. So... it's kind of too late to order a hvlp now but i'm sure somewhere in the nearby future I'll be in the same boat once again. I want to spray water borne finishes and oils like the Osmo colours I use all the time. Therefore I thought to get two cups for the same gun (is this the right thing to do?) to separate water and oil based finishes in "their own" cup.
I have difficulties selecting the right needle/ nozzle sizes as I have no previous experience. Here's what in my shopping basket at the moment;

-Fuji Q4 Gold Pro Turbine Unit & T70 Gravity Feed Spray Gun - PACKAGE DEAL

-Fuji XT Aircap Set - 1.8mm Aircap

-Fuji T70 Series 600cc Gravity Cup

-Fuji Q Model Turbine Filter

-Fuji T70 Series Gravity Cup Parts Kit

-Fuji Gravity Feed Gun Holder Stand

The t70 gun that includes the package deal comes with a 1,3mm needle thats why I included the 1,8mm
I intend to order the filters, spare rings etc. with it as I have to order from the UK as there are no dealers in my country.

Any thoughts appreciated!
Kind regards,
Mauri Motti

 

[Scott B.]

I'll defer to Tim and Tom, as I'm not familiar with the Fuji.

I will say that hvlp is slow in production work.

I'm happy to help with process questions etc

 

[RC]

I recall Henrik had a good write-up on using the 3M PPS changeable cup system in the previous model Xpc Fuji guns for what you are after with the double cups. Might be worth a look?

 

[Mauri Motti]

Thanks for the quick replies. I knew/ was afraid that that was gonne be your answer Scott, I mean you referring to Tim & Tom. You also don't have tips or tricks on selecting needles and nozzle for my needs? I am not so worried about the slow production issue as I'm sure an hvlp will  be way up from my brush work!

Thanks for your reply Reiska. Thought yesterday to pm you and ask you about your whereabouts your Q4. I mainly use waterborne Teknos Futura paints, 20 for indoor and 40 for outdoors but will surely use Tikkurila paints in the future. And as mentioned in the previous post, Osmo color oils, hard wax etc. Thanks for the reverence to Henrik (our Danish fogger I presume?) I'll start looking for that post right now.

Any input still welcome.....PLEASE

 

[Scott B.]

Thanks for the quick replies. I knew/ was afraid that that was gonne be your answer Scott, I mean you referring to Tim & Tom. You also don't have tips or tricks on selecting needles and nozzle for my needs? I am not so worried about the slow production issue as I'm sure an hvlp will  be way up from my brush work!

Thanks for your reply Reiska. Thought yesterday to pm you and ask you about your whereabouts your Q4. I mainly use waterborne Teknos Futura paints, 20 for indoor and 40 for outdoors but will surely use Tikkurila paints in the future. And as mentioned in the previous post, Osmo color oils, hard wax etc. Thanks for the reverence to Henrik (our Danish fogger I presume?) I'll start looking for that post right now.

Any input still welcome.....PLEASE

Mauri

I would need to know more about your needs, what type of work you do the most. What products you use the most. How your spray area is set up, etc.

 

[Mauri Motti]

[laughing] Nice you're still here Scott!

I do a lot of Pine wood painting. From window frames to ceiling boards to doors, floor trims etc. But also tables, chairs and cupboards (which are mostly not in Pine though) The Pine gets often waterborne paints and the tables chairs and cupboards( which are mostly in hardwood) get a oil wax or oil finish, As I don't have a dedicated finishing room in my shop but I do sometimes finish there but the risk of having (very) fine dust on my work is a to big a risk and too much extra work sanding this out again. Therefore I tend to use my heated one car garage for applying finishes and it eliminates the dust issue. It is much smaller as my shop and thus easily cleanable and maskable when spraying. Fresh air circulation may be a problem here..? I do prime and sand in the shop but do finish in the garage. It is a space that is heated to 18 degrees Celsius , about 64,5 Fahrenheit. I have no running water nor 3 phase in the car garage but I do in the shop which is connected directly to my car garage. I don't own a big compressor though I did consider getting one and run 3 phase to the garage just for spraying but I can't justify the expenses. Therefore HVLP.

Teknos is a Finnish paint manufacturer which I like. They offer both oil and water based paints from which I favour their water based. Futura aqua (furniture paints) is the one I use 90% of the time which they offer in in- and outdoor paints.

Osmo Color hard wax and oils I mostly use for my hardwood furniture.

Hope this helps. I included the links to the specific paints information as I hope they mean anything to you.. This kind of info beats me though [embarassed]

Thanks in advance,

Mauri Motti

PS; I see that the Teknos manufacturers link opens automatically in Finnish, at least here it does, in the upper right corner you can change this to English.

 

[tiralie]

Mauri:

I do everything I do by brush and every time a big project comes including painting I think to myself, oh boy if I could just spray this decently I would save so much time.. Now I'm in one of those projects again literally painting many kilometers of wood.

Yes, for a large project I agree you will save time. If you are painting small projects you won't save time using a spray system. The set up and prep will take as long as brushing or rolling but you will also need a "clean room" preferably with some ventilation to spray in.

Therefore I thought to get two cups for the same gun (is this the right thing to do?) to separate water and oil based finishes in "their own" cup.
I have difficulties selecting the right needle/ nozzle sizes as I have no previous experience. Here's what in my shopping basket at the moment;

If you are spraying oil and water borne I would encourage you to get the PPS system and/or getting the siphon version of the T70. Changing the gravity cup is not hard, but if you want to change out coatings or colors it is a lot easier to do this with PPS cups than cleaning out a siphon cup or changing over while the cup has coating in it. Changing out one siphon cup and putting a cap on it is easier than changing a gravity cup. The PPS system in either a gravity cup or siphon cup configuration will be the quickest for change overs.

You don't need the turbine filter. The turbine filter is easily removed and cleaned with a mild (dish washing) soap and warm water.

Get a whip hose and either make a turntable or buy one. You will work faster with smaller projects turning the object vs. walking around it.

Because of the high solids in the Teknos 80 I would also get the 2.0 Aircap set in addition to the 1.8 and experiment with which one works better. You may need to thin 5% (distilled water) or so.

I think the gun holder stand and some spare cup gaskets are a good to have on hand if you are gonna use the Fuji cups.

I do a lot of Pine wood painting. From window frames to ceiling boards to doors, floor trims etc.  I do prime and sand in the shop but do finish in the garage.

If you are setting up to spray the final coat, you might as well spray the prime. What kind of prime do you use?

Therefore I tend to use my heated one car garage for applying finishes and it eliminates the dust issue. It is much smaller as my shop and thus easily cleanable and maskable when spraying. Fresh air circulation may be a problem here..?

It is a space that is heated to 18 degrees Celsius , about 64,5 Fahrenheit.

18 C./64.5 F is a bit cool, but it will work. It will take longer for the finish to cure (water to evaporate) particularly when thin, and you may have some dust settle on the freshly sprayed material before it dries completely.
Ideally, I would get a small room fan to suck air out of the garage for air movement and a small radiant space heater to increase the heat so the water in the coatings evaporate quicker. Put the fan in front of an open door or window to get some air flow through the garage. You don't need a lot of air flow but a little helps move any air borne finish away from the freshly sprayed coating.
Tim

 

[Mauri Motti]

Thank you for your reply Tim, much appreciated!

My shop as well as the car garage are geothermal heated. I can increase the temperature if I want but it'll be expensive as the electricity will kick in. Of course if a big painting project comes along I could easily bring the temperature up for just the few days I will be spraying. Ventilation in the garage will possibly be a problem as in our wintertime I can't just leave the door open. I do have some air vents in the wall and in both doors to where I could place a ventilator to help ventilation (?). ( will include pics so you'll get an idea of what i'm talking about.. Sure thing it'll be far from ideal as these vents are very small but though four of them in the same space) In summertime ventilation nor temperature won't be so much of an issue I guess.

PPS sounds like a good option as an alternative for what I'm trying to achieve. Reiska revered to a post Henrik has done but I can't find that. After googling PPS I have a idea what it's all about. I choose the gravity gun as I learned it gives me greater accessibility in tighter spaces. But, if I have a whole batch to me primed, and coated twice, will just two gravity cups not do? (assuming everything painted requires the same colour) Possibly three cups, one for priming, one for oils/ hard waxes and one for the waterborne final coats.
Thanks mentioning about the turbine filter, if I can just wash it it will be just fine.
What's a whip hose exactly? Making a turnable I figured I'll do. Also thanks for recommending the 2.0mm air cap. Will definitely get one. Just for the sake of not having to wait getting it over from the UK as I can't get this locally let alone nationally.
Would love to be able to prime with the hvlp too but I thought it'll be a too big of a mess..(?) I use strictly Tikkurilla's Otex for priming. Here a PDF

Kind regards,
Mauri Motti

Edit; Have read some more and now see the advantages of the whip hose over the conventional one!

 

[Mauri Motti]

Note the vents in the door; (from which the rotating covers can be totally removed to improve airflow)

And the vents in the wall;  (from which the rotating covers also can be totally removed to improve airflow)

 

[RC]

Bummer! I got mixed up with forums... With Henrik's story I meant TripleH (hhh)'s This Thread on Wood Talk Online (WTO)... Duh!

Also Here's a link to Fuji's own FAQ about PPS.

Sorry for the confusion!

 

[Scott B.]

What Tim said!

 

[Mauri Motti]

Bummer! I got mixed up with forums... With Henrik's story I meant TripleH (hhh)'s This Thread on Wood Talk Online (WTO)... Duh!

Also Here's a link to Fuji's own FAQ about PPS.

Sorry for the confusion!

Thanks for the links Reiska. I did research this morning on 3M's PPS and it seems a great option for my needs but it seems not available in Europe. I read from ukworkshop that people order them from the US or ebay, also US. I will call to 3M Finland tomorrow, hopefully they can help us here with PPS. What paints are you using with your Fuji Reiska? What needles and nozzles are you using with the paints available in our stores?

Mauri

 

[Mauri Motti]

What Tim said!

[tongue]  [laughing]

 

[tiralie]

I forgot to mention, to get a respirator. If you are going to spray in your garage without any ventilation I would suggest at the very least a half face piece mask similar to the 3M 7500 series.

My shop as well as the car garage are geothermal heated. I can increase the temperature if I want but it'll be expensive as the electricity will kick in. Of course if a big painting project comes along I could easily bring the temperature up for just the few days I will be spraying.

Look into small propane powered radiant heaters. Generally cheaper than increasing the heat via electricity. You really only need to get the heat up to 70 F or 20-21 C. while you are spraying and drying and really you only need it to be warm in the zone your drying in.

Ventilation in the garage will possibly be a problem as in our wintertime I can't just leave the door open.

Thanks for the pictures, those vents aren't big enough. You only need to open the garage doors 30 cm or so while spraying so the fan can suck any particles out versus having them stay in your garage and sticking to your newly sprayed finish. You could build an insulated panel that sits in the opening and holds the fan and still work in relative comfort.

But, if I have a whole batch to me primed, and coated twice, will just two gravity cups not do? (assuming everything painted requires the same colour) Possibly three cups, one for priming, one for oils/ hard waxes and one for the waterborne final coats.

Yes using 2 cups will work. For your larger jobs you will be filling them often. To start you might want to buy the 1000c  gravity cup as your back up or second cup. The gravity cup is smaller than the siphon cup and for your larger jobs you will want to eventually move to a pressure pot to save the time it takes to stop and refill the gravity cup. It's easier to fill the siphon cup because you can remove it from the gun, it's easier (at least for me it was) to convert to a pressure pot and with the pressure pot attached, I can actually get right into tighter areas than with the gravity cup. Even with the PPS on my gun and the ability to turn the PPS cup out of the way, I personally don't find it very effective. I like to spray steadily and  continuously and stopping to turn the cup etc. just doesn't work for me.

Would love to be able to prime with the hvlp too but I thought it'll be a too big of a mess..(?) I use strictly Tikkurilla's Otex for priming.

Tikkurilla Otex is a solvent based primer and I would not recommend that you spray it in your garage.

Note: Costs mount up quickly when you get into spray painting. The equipment has a cost but it is one time, but as in all things woodworking the infrastructure fixed/variable costs (space, heating, cooling, consumables, repairs and maintenance etc.) to support the tools actually costs more. Unless you really need to have the type of finish or the efficiency that spraying gives you I don't think there is anything wrong with a brush and or roller. Some people actually prefer the brushed look and there are many paints that are formulated to be brushed but settle out almost as smooth as if they were professionally sprayed.

 

[Mauri Motti]

Isn't the T 70 gravity a pressure pot? Thats what I've understood while reading about it anyways. Will check this again.
I have a 3M respirator! Thanks mentioning though, very important indeed. You don't recommend me spraying the solvent based Otex in my garage. Is a water based primer a better option? (does that even exist [embarassed]) You're right reminding me that the brush aint wrong and pointing out the costs of spraying. I am one of those that really appreciates the look of brushed finishes but there's a limit to everything. I am a woodworker and I'm very much willing to finish projects for customers but I often end up spending more time painting then working wood. And indeed, when I do achieve a almost flawless finish it may look as if its sprayed depending on the paints used on the project. Also, i'm having problems (not experienced enough) achieving a good finish on a project with many angles/ corners that all need a fine finish. I was afraid the vents in my garage weren't sufficient enough. Your idea of an insulated panel that hold a ventilator is an excellent idea for when its cold here. Also a propane heater is an option. 1000 cc cup I will consider too but first I want to check the costs of doing the 3M PPS. As was mentioned here earlier, it would really suit my needs. Siphon cup in stead of gravity I will also re-consider as you say it doesn't limit your spraying in tight corners. I also get it when you mention not having to want to turn the cup while spraying! Is the T70 siphon a pressured cup? Will look it up anyways but if you're reading this..

Today, when painting projects in the shop  , it came to me that I could possibly set up a dedicated finishing space in my shop. I have a second floor in one half of my shop but it isn't a closed space. There is sufficient airflow though as I have air circulation pipes running through the ceiling of the shop as well as on the second floor. I may be able to build something like a booth there (tent-like something) which is easily build up when needed.

 

[tiralie]

Isn't the T 70 gravity a pressure pot? Thats what I've understood while reading about it anyways. Will check this again.

Yes, both the gravity and siphon cup are pressurized. I was referring to a system where you connect your Fuji gun to a stand alone pressure pot pressurized by a small compressor.

Is a water based primer a better option? (does that even exist

Yes. There is some very good water borne primer for interior. For exterior I would still stay with solvent based but I am stuck in my ways.

I will consider too but first I want to check the costs of doing the 3M PPS. As was mentioned here earlier, it would really suit my needs.

Getting in touch with the local 3M guys would be a good thing. The 3m PPS cups do come in various sizes. Hopefully they can help you with what you need.

Siphon cup in stead of gravity I will also re-consider as you say it doesn't limit your spraying in tight corners.

Only if you remove the gravity cup and connect to a separate pressure pot. Research pressure pots and spray painting.

 

[Mauri Motti]

Ok, so that means that when using a pressure pot you don't use the Q4 at all?
I will ask for waterborne primers for furniture use at my local store.

Thanks Tim, you've provided some invaluable information to me.

 

[RC]

Sad to confess, but my Q4 hasn't seen any use yet. I got every other aircap/nozzle set for my xpc gravity feeder except the smallest one (it was for instant suntan lotion and maybr stain I think) and a cleaning set from Axminster where I ordered mine from.

I'm currently planning some wardrobe & cupboard projects so maybe next summer mine will see some action.

I've been scouting out our housing complex 'hobby room' to see if I could setup some kind of curtain spraybooth in there to have a closed space for spraying.

I'm also debating with myself would I dare to build a fancy workbench there and hope no-one breaks it with stupidity... Duh! The problems of shared workspaces :-(

 

[tjbnwi]

I just got a T-70 siphon/bottom feed to use with a pressure pot. It is the only bottom feed gun I own, my preferred is a gravity. I used my Xpc side/gravity feed for years with a pot, the hose off the side was a bit of a pain.

With all your changes, as Tim said get the PPS system. They make different size liners, I used an 8 ounce last night to stain a few shelfs I missed on a count. Nice to just throw away the liner. Get a restaurant condiment bottle, trim the tip to fit the PPS adapter, you can flush the gun without turning on the turbine.

I like pressure pots. They have served me well. The change out can be a pain if you need multiple finishes/colors.

In my 38 man hours thread the stain was shot with the Xpc/PPS combo and the finish shot through the T-70 connected to the new pot. I had planned on using a AAA for the finish, long story why I did not use it.............

When you swap out needles make sure you check the packing nut. It may need to be snugged to prevent dripping.

I did a photo post on the PPS married to the Xpc. I believe it is in the dealer section, I believe it was K-119 who asked about it.

My turbine is a Q4 Gold.

Tom  

 

[Mauri Motti]

Sad to confess, but my Q4 hasn't seen any use yet. I got every other aircap/nozzle set for my xpc gravity feeder except the smallest one (it was for instant suntan lotion and maybr stain I think) and a cleaning set from Axminster where I ordered mine from.

I'm currently planning some wardrobe & cupboard projects so maybe next summer mine will see some action.

I've been scouting out our housing complex 'hobby room' to see if I could setup some kind of curtain spraybooth in there to have a closed space for spraying.

I'm also debating with myself would I dare to build a fancy workbench there and hope no-one breaks it with stupidity... Duh! The problems of shared workspaces :-(

Well, I'm sure it'll get its use at some point. Nice to hear you do have (though a common) space available to work when needed! I recall you have the XTP gun but do I understand correct that you have all these? Thats quite an investment!
I also plan to purchase from Axminster. Rutland, where I order from sometimes, also has them but since I've never purchased from Ax and know people that are happy to doing business with them I figured, why not. I called 3M Finland today and even though I had to explain to them what PPS was they eventually called me back and told me the can deliver! Yahoo!!
Next follows an excerpt from an email from 3m to me today;

"I could ask even if our salesman had the time to stop by to introduce you in detail to the equipment."

Now thats awesome!! Worth while the three phone calls, leaving messages to answering machines writing and receiving emails today. Funny though that everyone at 3M I talked to had any clue what PPS was. (Not that I knew until yesterday, but hey, I don't work there  [tongue]

T. Mauri