Giving my DF 500 Q one more chance before I get rid of it.

[Scott in San Diego]

I just decided to make a repeat test joint with no requirement other than producing one matching surface.  I clamped each workpiece with a bench hold-down.  I locked the Domino fence mechanism and presented the tool against each workpiece with heavy pressure on the fence assembly and made smoothly controlled cuts.  When I finished and joined the dry assembly, the two surfaces which were against the bench-top during the cut were about 1/32 mismatched.  I am now not optimistic that screwing the tool to a jig is going to improve the joint but I plan to try it anyway.

Is the other surface flush or is it offset 1/32" also.  If it is flush, your two work pieces are different thicknesses.  If it is offset, try flipping one board and dry fit them.

BTW, for the type of edge joining you are doing, the fence is your reference side and the joiner bottom base should overhang and not touch the bench top.  When doing layout, mark the reference surface on the board to help keep track of what side is what.  The mortises do not have to be centered vertically on the edge of the work.  A few pictures of your setup might help the gang here to assist you.

 

[grbmds]

I've read this thread with interest because I can't really figure out why problems with the use of the Domino are occurring. I never have any issues with alignment other than those caused by my errors or techniques. I rarely use the "paddles" on the fence for lineup, choosing instead, to merely make matching marks on the mating pieces and lining those marks up with the cursor on the Domino's window. The resulting alignment is so close that it is essentially perfect and better than I could accomplish any other way. Many times I just cut all slots at the smallest size and the alignment is still "perfect".

Based on the original poster's description of what he must do to get the alignment close, I didn't find anything that would be contrary to what is required during use. Since a lot of force is being exerted during the plunge, counter acting force must be applied to keep the Domino from moving, both vertically and horizontally.

The comparison was made to a biscuit joiner. The Domino and a biscuit joiner are two different tools and, for me, have always serve two different purposes. The Domino produces a solid, strong, and structurally sound loose tenon joint which can be used for furniture and cabinet making and replaces a traditional mortise and tenon joint. The biscuit joiner results in improved line up for gluing, but really isn't meant for strength in furniture or cabinet construction. The Domino joint is a mortise and tenon joint. The biscuit joint isn't.

I found that reading the Supplemental Manual, now available on the Festool website as a downloadable file,
provided a lot of guidance that helped me with various techniques and with operation that wasn't completely intuitive. It improved my setup and work with Domino.

Also, I assume the OP is using dust collection with the Domino since since he has experience with a biscuit joiner. Dust collection is a must with the Domino.

Not trying to be critical. For me, the Domino is a tool which has no equal in terms of quick, easy mortise and tenon joinery. All the joints are strong, fit more tightly than any standard mortise and tenon joint I ever cut, and work for unusual situations where a hand cut joint would be more difficult to make. I've never found it to be inaccurate so I would like everyone who uses it to experience the benefits of a tool which clearly makes creating furniture, cabinets, boxes, drawers, picture frames; almost anything, easier and more fun.

 

[dckchk]

I am completely aware of the differences in function and application of Dominos and biscuits.  Application differences aside there is no question that referencing cuts on small workpieces up from the table surface rather than down from the top surface of the workpiece is more convenient and should be more repeatable.  That is why most experienced users recommend that method with biscuit joiners.  The machine base can never move relative to the cutter and its generally easier to manage the workpiece.  The only problem that should potentially exist is the possibility of the workpiece or the machine moving side to side.  I do not have that problem.  I have no difficulty placing the center of a domino on my chosen mark.  I can locate and make the cut in the sides and in the ends of sticks without trim fences, sandpaper, pins, or any other alignment aid to my complete satisfaction.  What I cannot do is make a pair of cuts on two workpieces each of which is clamped to a table with the base of my DF 500 also pressed against the table and end up with a well aligned single surface when the two pieces are assembled with a domino.  One of the cuts is invariably above or below the other.
  I am assembling a jig which will consist of a 2' x3' plate with the DF 500 attached using the mounting holes in the base and a pair of fences which effectively extend the face of the DF 500 the full length of the plate.  The intent is to make it easier to handle and accurately position small workpieces without the need for clamping anything.  When the project becomes too large for the jig tool is easily removed for freehand work.  At least that's the theory.  If the cutter can't be counted on to maintain height repeatability the tool isn't useful at all.
  I have checked for play in the cutter mechanism with the tool clamped in a vise and find it to be negligible. I'm still hoping that the problem is related to tool movement during the plunge even though I'm applying the right forces and using a reasonable feed rate.
  I have noticed that there is a raised bump on the bottom of the motor assembly which is nearly, but not quite, perfectly aligned with the machine base.  It is almost as if Festool intended this bump to slide along the benchtop to help keep the base from tipping.

 

[grbmds]

I don't remember ever having those problems. However, because the Domino references from the top of the work piece, it is necessary to have enough clearance between the top of the workpiece and the base of the Domino so that it can truly rest on the workpiece. I have made the mistake of not having enough clearance at least once, not thinking ahead. Now I just use the Vacsys to clamp the pieces and that is no longer an issue. An expensive way to resolve it, but it's so easy to use, I couldn't resist.

I just don't get any noticeable movement vertically or horizontally unless I erroneously don't keep a firm hold on the tool while plunging or try to plunge too fast. For me, as long as I follow the correct setup and operating process, I get perfect results. Sorry to hear it really hasn't worked as well as you hoped. It should, not only be the accurate tool it was designed to be, but really satisfying and "fun" to use.

 

[Kevin D.]

I'm stunned.  I can't see why why you are having probs other than inplemention errors.

Used mine since 2009.

 

[nclemmons]

Couple of more questions...

where are you located?  Thinking someone on FOG may be able to observe your tool usage and offer you advice in use.

And what are the dimensions of the pieces you are dominoing and what size domino are you using? 

Can you share some pics or even better a video?

 

[Jimdude]

English is not my native language, but if I understand you correctly, you're referencing off the clamping table surface (*).

If so, how are you clamping the wood? Can it bend up during the cut? I can imagine that the forces of the bit biting into the wood could make the end of the workpiece "floppy" (which doesn't happen if you reference off the fence, because then you press both the domino and the workpiece together). Is the workpiece REALLY pressed down against the table as close to the Domino as possible?

(Oh, and is the table flat?)

(*) Because you only trust the one dimension that cannot -accidently- change on a Domino, namely the distance between its base and the cutter, right?

 

[DrD]

[member=64480]dckchk[/member]

If I understand you correctly: 1) horizontal position of the mortise cut by the DF is NOT an issue; 2) correct/reproducible  vertical (elevation) of the mortise relative to the piece being mortised IS; 3) in referencing off the top surface, you are using the DF fence with the knob, and you have observed - correctly - that fence can move during plunging; and 4) you are mortising mostly 5/8" stock. 

In your experience, referencing off the "top" surface using the fence has proven to be unacceptable, you are looking for a satisfactory way to reference off the "bottom" surface, which has an even more unique set of issues.

If theses assumptions are close to correct, there is a really practical, inexpensive, repeatable, accurate, and uncomplicated solution, where you can reference off the "top" or upper surface:  the Domiplate from Seneca Woodworking - senecawoodworking.com - which costs all of $64.95 + shipping (no, I don't work for nor get a commission fro Seneca).  Many DF users have this virtually indispensable accessory, and use it routinely - I know I do.

Now, if this helps - great, and if it doesn't I'm sorry I went on for so long.  Just hope you can enjoy using one of the finest wood joining tools available, with it's short-comings and all.

Best wishes!

edit:  as for the pins/paddles on the face of the DF - I have secured mine back into the face where they are no longer in the way; I find them totally useless.

 

[dckchk]

  Up front in this reply I should report that I believe I have confirmed that my problem is entirely due to an inability to guarantee solid bench-top referencing through each and every cut.  I purchased the Woodpeckers domino offset base system when it was available.  I intended it for use on large assemblies where the tool must be brought to the assembly.  When the joint can be laid out on a flat surface I preferred to reference off the base of the machine.  Since receiving it most of my work has been with workpieces under 4' in length and easily handled on a bench.  I have many other ways of creating mortise & tenon joints so I have taken to using the DF 500 only occasionally when speed was more important than accuracy.  This AM I pulled out the offset base and made several cuts the kind of precision I would expect from this machine - undetectable discontinuity sliding a finger over the referenced surfaces.
  Then why am I not happy making all my cuts this way?  It is because referencing off the top surface of a stick is slower and less accurate than referencing off the top surface of a bench.  Yes I can put the stick in a vise, carefully align the flap fence, (or the Seneca plate, or the Woodpeckers offset base) to the top surface of the stick, rock the tool to confirm planar registration, and maintain that alignment through the cut.  OR I can place the stick on the bench against a stop, slide the DF 500 to the mark and make the cut with no concern whatever for a planar mismatch of any sort.  I find not being able to do this simply because of design deficiencies in the machine to be very frustrating.
  I am now confident that bolting the machine to a fixed jig to guarantee base registration is going to allow me to work more efficiently in the manner that I prefer and still allow me to remove the machine for freehand use.
  In my opinion the fundamental cutting mechanism of the Festool machines is clever and effective however the fence system and depth adjustment features have not been optimized.  The base is simply too short (front to back).  The flap fence is too fragile, prone to slippage, and does not offer enough options.  There probably should be an additional sliding fence perpendicular to the flap similar to that of many biscuit joiners which could contain the 45 degree notch to outside referencing of miter joints.  There should also be threaded holes in the flap fence to facilitate atthments and the unhelpful pins (or flaps) should be eliminated. Stick-on sandpaper works just fine as has been suggested.
  When I first posted I was not so much looking for help as just venting my frustration with a costly tool which I have not found to live up to its promise for me.  I expect that after mounting in a jig I will be in a much happier place.  I have done the same thing with an older 150/5 sander to produce a much used edge sander.

 

[ChuckM]

  "OR I can place the stick on the bench against a stop, slide the DF 500 to the mark and make the cut with no concern whatever for a planar mismatch of any sort.  I find not being able to do this simply because of design deficiencies in the machine to be very frustrating."

- I agree for some repetitive cuts, using the baseplate for registration is more reliable and quicker. E.g.

"There should also be threaded holes in the flap fence to facilitate atthments and the unhelpful pins (or flaps) should be eliminated. Stick-on sandpaper works just fine as has been suggested."

- I use the stop latches most of the time which will result in the front edges or ends of two workpieces dead flush automatically.

 
I'm sorry to hear about the kinds of frustrations you shared here. Almost from Day 1 since I got my DF 500 (2013), I have built many floating-tenon-joinery projects (panel glue-ups, tables, cabinets, shelves and boxes) with great success, using no after-market jigs or accessories. This tool has saved uncountable number of shop hours for many of my projects where speed was a critical factor (e.g. trying to finish as many projects as possible before their deadlines arrived) and accuracy of cuts was important.

 

[grbmds]

Everyone works in ways that suit them. For some, the Domino may not be a tool which they find is a good fit with what they do or how they do it. It's no different than any other tool. All the tools I own require a certain set of steps to use them effectively. There are always multiple ways ways to do the job. That's one of the things that is so great about woodworking. There are multiple ways to do the job. Some are better than others and some work better for some people than others. None of them are necessarily wrong if they get the desired result. I love the Domino and have never had a bad result unless I have been responsible for it through an error. For me, it is one of the tools in my shop that I wouldn't want to do without.

 

[Holmz]

Everyone works in ways that suit them. For some, the Domino may not be a tool which they find is a good fit with what they do or how they do it. It's no different than any other tool. All the tools I own require a certain set of steps to use them effectively. There are always multiple ways ways to do the job. That's one of the things that is so great about woodworking. There are multiple ways to do the job. Some are better than others and some work better for some people than others. None of them are necessarily wrong if they get the desired result. I love the Domino and have never had a bad result unless I have been responsible for it through an error. For me, it is one of the tools in my shop that I wouldn't want to do without.

It is harmony day here too.
And that is a awesome post for it.

Whether or not there is in no 'wrong way', the OP's were not right.
And whether or not most people love the tool, it is not working for the OP.

 

[grbmds]

Everyone works in ways that suit them. For some, the Domino may not be a tool which they find is a good fit with what they do or how they do it. It's no different than any other tool. All the tools I own require a certain set of steps to use them effectively. There are always multiple ways ways to do the job. That's one of the things that is so great about woodworking. There are multiple ways to do the job. Some are better than others and some work better for some people than others. None of them are necessarily wrong if they get the desired result. I love the Domino and have never had a bad result unless I have been responsible for it through an error. For me, it is one of the tools in my shop that I wouldn't want to do without.

It is harmony day here too.
And that is a awesome post for it.

Whether or not there is in no 'wrong way', the OP's were not right.
And whether or not most people love the tool, it is not working for the OP.

Guess my point was that maybe the Domino just doesn't suit existing habits or methods of work. When it becomes a chore to use a tool or frustrating because it doesn't produce the result you expect, then it's time to get rid of it. There are several I'm thinking of getting rid of because they just didn't produce the expected result for the jobs I want to use them for. I've found other ways and tools that work better for me and get the result I expect, am happy with, and makes woodworking more satisfying for me. Don't know why the Domino doesn't work the way the OP thought it would, but it works for me; in fact makes me happy when I use it, and the result gives me a tremendous amount of satisfaction; but, hey, that's me.

 

[Holmz]

[embarassed]yeah [member=19734]grbmds[/member] Randy I can agree with ˆthatˆ.
(Apologies for my earlier post was not being overly harmonious...  [embarassed] )

The other point is that a lot of people do this as a recreational activity...
So at some point if it is too challenging then the joy can be lost.

Life can be too short for the frustration.

 

[dckchk]

  OK, I have now assembled and used my DF 500 mounting jig.  As I suspected from my experiment with the Woodpeckers offset base, solidly bolting the DF 500 to a plate produces perfectly aligned reference surfaces.  Apparently despite my best efforts to hold the business end of the tool tight to the bench-top, the back end has been dropping during the plunge.  I'll be 80 in a couple of months and I'm finding it a bit harder to muscle things around these days.
  I am attaching a photo of the jig I am using which is going to make it much easier for me to produce "horizontal" joints in the most common plane on average sized material.  I find it very easy to work with because only the workpiece needs to be held or clamped.  I will make up a couple of spacer blocks to help with end cuts in narrow workpieces.  I'll also probably add cam-lock hold-downs or some such.  The use of reference posts on the plate and sliding around the perimeter will assist with various angle cuts.  I also still have to install measurement tapes.
  This should be more convenient for much of the work that I do on material 1" thick or under.  When I need to cut "vertical" joints or work on larger projects its easy to unmount the DF 500 and reference off the top surface as most are doing.

 

[dckchk]

I meant to add that it seems perfectly feasable to rout a depression to accommodate an adapter plate under the DF 500 which will allow raising with spacer plates and facilitate removal for other applications.

 

[semenza]

Cool set up. Woodhaven used to make a bench mount like that for the Domino.

Seth

 

[grbmds]

[embarassed]yeah [member=19734]grbmds[/member] Randy I can agree with ˆthatˆ.
(Apologies for my earlier post was not being overly harmonious...  [embarassed] )

The other point is that a lot of people do this as a recreational activity...
So at some point if it is too challenging then the joy can be lost.

Life can be too short for the frustration.

[member=40772]Holmz[/member]  Like me, I don't want the demands of satisfying a deadline so I just do the projects I want to do when I want to do them. It's because of that that I love the Domino. It lets me do strong mortise and tenon joints quickly and accurately; joints that would otherwise take me several times longer to do by another method. Therefore, I still get the satisfaction of designing a piece, getting the wood ready, cutting it, and assembling it for the final project without spending all of my time cutting multiple mortise and tenon joints. I built a piece of furniture for my daughter with all Domino joints that would have required many mortise and tenon joints; a few that would have been very difficult without the Domino. For some, I know that their satisfaction comes from the actual cutting of the joints and that is great (plus it saves them a lot of money to spend on good quality hand tools). Whatever makes you happy and satisfied is the way to go. I always feel bad when a user has difficulty doing what they want to do with a tool.

[member=64480]dckchk[/member] Glad to hear the Woodpecker base works for you. I do own that and have used it in a number of projects. It definitely does give you a more stable base and stays in place better than the Domino on its own. I just don't use it all the time because the Domino won't store in the systainer with the Woodpecker base attached, so it requires I install it each time. Again, glad to hear the Domino with the Offset Base works for you because the Domino is truly a wonderful tool which has allowed me to improve my work.

 

[dckchk]

I should also have added that with the Domino fixed in place like this the fence stops make it easy to add just 1mm or less to the width of a  mortise.  This is quicker than cutting down a domino and I think results in a better joint.

 

[grbmds]

I should also have added that with the Domino fixed in place like this the fence stops make it easy to add just 1mm or less to the width of a  mortise.  This is quicker than cutting down a domino and I think results in a better joint.

Interesting. Since I've never found the need to create a mortise at any other widths than the 3 possible widths on the Domino, I have to ask why would that result in a better joint? The Dominos fit perfectly in the smallest size slot (sometimes with a tiny bit of sanding off the edges but generally not needed).