Had a power surge, smoked the CT 15 :/

[bwehman]

Welp, huge storm ran through the area and after a power surge ran through the house, I found that sadly my CT15 was indeed dead. It was the only thing plugged into the wall that was "on" (...it's kind of always in that standby mode, never truly off). Thankfully the Kapex connected to it was fine. Ordered a new PCB from Festool so hopefully will be back in service Friday.

Just installed a whole house surge protector today to mitigate this from happening again.

 

[ChuckM]

I don't know how true it is, but in another forum, some people were saying that even if the machine was turned off, it could still be damaged by a power surge. The machine needed to be unplugged from the wall outlet.

Can someone confirm or refute that?

 

[ChuckM]

Snip

Just installed a whole house surge protector today to mitigate this from happening again.

Do you need a qualified electrician to do that? How is it done?

 

[blues]

I don't know how true it is, but in another forum, some people were saying that even if the machine was turned off, it could still be damaged by a power surge. The machine needed to be unplugged from the wall outlet.

Can someone confirm or refute that?

The incoming power lead is usually routed through a switch for most electrical/electronic equipment. When the switch is off  you have electrical isolation from the grid - hence you are protected from any suges. But if you are in standby (power is ON) you do have live power entering the equiment to the input stage and that is exposed to the surge. So it is likely that is the part of the board that got fried.
Yes.. to protect your equipment from power surges when not in use, you must ensure that your equipment is electically isolated or routed through a surge protector. To fool proof it - simply unplug it.
A surge protector will also protect your equipment when your equipment is in use. Well that is the primary purpose of the surge protector anyways.
It is common for audiophiles to use sophisticated powersupplies that provide clean power to highend electronics since the quality of power has a huge impact on audio quality. Even there they use a surge protector so the hit can be taken by a cheaper equipment outside the system and its easy to replace. Hope this makes sense.

 

[mino]

The incoming power lead is usually routed through a switch for most electrical/electronic equipment. When the switch is off  you have electrical isolation from the grid - hence you are protected from any suges.
...

This is true for mechanical switches like on the CT 26/36/48 series which directly trigger a relay and there is no power to the electronics while OFF.

Not so with the CT MINI/MIDI/15/25 series.These use an electronic switch which needs constant standby power to the board.

Either way, a shop should have a central "OFF" switch to be flapped every time one leaves the shop. Unplugging individuad tools is both a PITA and does not address the fire/kids/etc. hazards.

@ OP
I believe this is covered under the all-inclusive service you got for three years .. so if still covered would check with Festool before ordering a part on your tab..

 

[squall_line]

The incoming power lead is usually routed through a switch for most electrical/electronic equipment. When the switch is off  you have electrical isolation from the grid - hence you are protected from any suges.
...

This is true for mechanical switches like on the CT 26/36/48 series which directly trigger a relay and there is no power to the electronics while OFF.

Not so with the CT MINI/MIDI/15/25 series.These use an electronic switch which needs constant standby power to the board.

Either way, a shop should have a central "OFF" switch to be flapped every time one leaves the shop. Unplugging individuad tools is both a PITA and does not address the fire/kids/etc. hazards.

I believe that the CT MINI-I/MIDI-I/15/25 all still have a physical switch.  When I power mine On/Off, you can feel the switch move in and out to make/break contact, it just happens to be behind a rubber pad.  The rest of the controls are on a PCB, however.

Speaking of centralized power, Jason Bent had an interesting post a few months (maybe a year? I don't have the time to look it up right now) ago about a system that provides electronic blast gate control but also power relays for equipment, so that everything in the shop can be turned off from a central switch (or even an app, I'm sure).  My only current option, were I to build out a shop in my garage, would be to throw the sub-panel breaker for the entire garage, which would also disable my garage opener and radon pump.  I'm sure most hobbyists are in a similar position, possibly even without the sub panel.

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.
The incoming power lead is usually routed through a switch for most electrical/electronic equipment. When the switch is off  you have electrical isolation from the grid - hence you are protected from any suges. Snip.

That's what I thought all along, too, but some forum posters were saying that even with the switch in its off position, a very powerful surge could still "jump" inside the switch to damage the machine. Is this true?

 

[ChuckM]

Snip. I'm sure most hobbyists are in a similar position, possibly even without the sub panel.

All hobby woodworkers I know, including myself, work out of their garages or basements, which have been built prior to them doing woodworking, and sub-panels are naturally absent. Depending on locations and conditions, installing a sub-panel in the shop by an electrician would cost about $4,000 - $5,000 Cdn.

 

[six-point socket II]

[member=57948]ChuckS[/member] I'll gladly let one of the native English speakers with electrical background/knowledge do the actual in-depth explanation if needed.

But yes, depending on the voltage of that surge and its origins, in a switch, that mechanically isolates, the gap between the two "connectors" can be too small and then there is an arc and it just jumps over. (Very, very simple put. As everyone knows, I'm not a native English speaker.)

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[squall_line]

[member=57948]ChuckS[/member] I'll gladly let one of the native English speakers with electrical background/knowledge do the actual in-depth explanation if needed.

But yes, depending on the voltage of that surge and its origins, in a switch, that mechanically isolates, the gap between the two "connectors" can be too small and then there is an arc and it just jumps over. (Very, very simple put. As everyone knows, I'm not a native English speaker.)

Kind regards,
Oliver

As a native English speaker, I don't know that I could have put it any better than this, Oliver, from a layperson's perspective. Kudos!

 

[mino]

All hobby woodworkers I know, including myself, work out of their garages or basements, which have been built prior to them doing woodworking, and sub-panels are naturally absent. Depending on locations and conditions, installing a sub-panel in the shop by an electrician would cost about $4,000 - $5,000 Cdn.

No need for a full-fledged fixed installation. No need to build a spaceship.

Just get a bog-standard mobile/construction site manufactured panel with a mobile input and plug it to your main mains line socket. Generaly one would want dedicated 30A/50A (US) or 400V pulled to the shop, but that is not strictly a must.
Then wire everything from that distribution box.

Advantage is that if one ever moves, all that is needed at the new place is one pulled socket. No major rebuild of the wiring.

In our community shop we had just 3 3-phase 16A@400V wall sockets. We plugged a mobile distrib box to each. On average the distrib boxes then have 10+ sockets for connection of static tools and/or further extenders.

Advantages:
- no need for rewiring (assuming initial available power is adequate) or minimal pull for one feeder with an industrial socket only
- no need to ask landlord for any approvals (this is huge, was what forced our hand initially)
- no sunken costs to improve a building one does not (necessarily) own and future occupant may not value/need the setup
- no dependent on the landlord taking care of the GFCI breakers (this is huge in practice in old building where you really do not want to bet your life on the breakers working properly)
- mobile, so can move whereever needed, easy to sell on after a re-cert

Disadvantages:
- takes some space that needs to be reserved to hang it on a wall (I do not see as a disadvantage, the central-stop needs to be easily accessible anyway and this ensures it)

Now, I am not saying that is the right approach for everyone. Just trying to show that a central-stop in a shop is nowhere near as hard as many think.

EDIT: czenglish to english ..

 

[squall_line]

All hobby woodworkers I know, including myself, work out of their garages or basements, which have been built prior to them doing woodworking, and sub-panels are naturally absent. Depending on locations and conditions, installing a sub-panel in the shop by an electrician would cost about $4,000 - $5,000 Cdn.

No need for a full-fledged fixed installation. No need to build a spaceship.

Just get a bog-standard mobile/construction site manufactured panel with a mobile input and plug it to your main mains line socket. Generaly one would want dedicated 30A/50A (US) or 400V pulled to the shop, but that is not strictly a must.
Then wire everything from that distribution box.

Advantage is that if one ever moves, all that is needed at the new place is one pulled socket. No major rebuild of the wiring.

In our community shop we had just 3 3-phase 16A@400V wall sockets. We plugged a mobile distrib box to each. On average the distrib boxes then have 10+ sockets for connection of static tools and/or further extenders.

Advantages:
- no need for rewiring (assuming initial available power is adequate) or minimal pull for one feeder with an industrial socket only
- no need to ask landlord for any approvals (this is huge, was what forced our hand initially)
- no sunken costs to improve a building one does not (necessarily) own and future occupant may not value/need the setup
- no dependent on the landlord taking care of the GFCI breakers (this is huge in practice in old building where you really do not want to bet your life on the breakers working properly)
- mobile, so can move whereever needed, easy to sell on after a re-cert

Disadvantages:
- takes some space that needs to be reserved to hang it on a wall (I do not see as a disadvantage, the central-stop needs to be easily accessible anyway and this ensures it)

Now, I am not saying that is the right approach for everyone. Just trying to show that a central-stop in a shop is nowhere near as hard as many think.

EDIT: czenglish to english ..

Pulling the 50A line to the shop is most of the cost, at least in the US.  The panel itself is pretty negligible in terms of cost.

There's also code compliance and Wife Approval Factors to consider.

 

[ChuckM]

[member=57948]ChuckS[/member] I'll gladly let one of the native English speakers with electrical background/knowledge do the actual in-depth explanation if needed.

But yes, depending on the voltage of that surge and its origins, in a switch, that mechanically isolates, the gap between the two "connectors" can be too small and then there is an arc and it just jumps over. (Very, very simple put. As everyone knows, I'm not a native English speaker.)

Kind regards,
Oliver

As a native English speaker, I don't know that I could have put it any better than this, Oliver, from a layperson's perspective. Kudos!

This^^^^^^^^

Thx, Oliver [member=61712]six-point socket II[/member]

 

[mino]

Pulling the 50A line to the shop is most of the cost, at least in the US.  The panel itself is pretty negligible in terms of cost.

There's also code compliance and Wife Approval Factors to consider.

Yeah, I know, US voltage ... here every socket is 16A@230V by default which is equiv to the US 30A one .. which is mostly OK for a garage shop where tools are not used simultaneously.

As mentioned, we have 3x400V but only 16A and it is absolutely fine. Whole woodshop area is run from only one of those distrib boxes and while the phases load is spread, in reality we could have made it single-phase as well. The 3x400V feed is used as 3x 230V @16A as no 400V kit is in the woodshop.

Safety /where I put this/ is one thing I have learned the hard way to never negotiate over. Not with colleagues, not with family.

 

[ChuckM]

snip.
No need for a full-fledged fixed installation. No need to build a spaceship.snip.

The benefits of a sub-panel in the shop are obvious, but the execution isn't simple to people like me who has had little electrical background. Before we can even add an outlet, let alone a sub-panel, we need to get a city permit/subsequent inspections. Depending on the scale or complexity of the job and location (urban vs rural), we may even need to get the power company involved. This may all sound easy for a local qualified electrician who does that for a living, it's not something many of us woodworkers may want to invest our time on.

 

[mino]

The benefits of a sub-panel in the shop are obvious, but the execution isn't simple to people like me who has had little electrical background. Before we can even add an outlet, let alone a sub-panel, we need to get a city permit/subsequent inspections. Depending on the scale or complexity of the job and location (urban vs rural), we may even need to get the power company involved. This may all sound easy for a local qualified electrician who does that for a living, it's not something many of us woodworkers may want to invest our time on.

Sorry, I am trully off on US regs.

Genuine Q, do you really have to ask for a permit to use a mobile distrib box analoguous to below ?

Ref: below goes for $200 over here and is:
- 16A@230V IN
- 3x 16A@230V OUT
+ GFCI and individual B breakers

 

[squall_line]

The benefits of a sub-panel in the shop are obvious, but the execution isn't simple to people like me who has had little electrical background. Before we can even add an outlet, let alone a sub-panel, we need to get a city permit/subsequent inspections. Depending on the scale or complexity of the job and location (urban vs rural), we may even need to get the power company involved. This may all sound easy for a local qualified electrician who does that for a living, it's not something many of us woodworkers may want to invest our time on.

Sorry, I am trully off on US regs.

Genuine Q, do you really have to ask for a permit to use a mobile distrib box analoguous to below ?

Ref: below goes for $200 over here and is:
- 16A@230V IN
- 3x 16A@230V OUT
+ GFCI and individual B breakers

No, that would likely not require a permit.

If you're using a 15A or 20A outlet, at most (depending on the age of the home, it's a 90% chance it's 15A and shared with at least 100sf of area inside the house), and you don't want to overload that with multiple machines, you would need to pull a permit to install a 220V outlet and then a separate distribution box to break it back out into 110V.

 

[ChuckM]

I know nothing about distribution boxes, and Google found me this for 50A boxes:

arentSkuKey=WP5686872

My main panel is 125A in the basement, and my portable garage heater for the shop is 220V (on a 30A circuit breaker). I suppose if I wanted to have a sub-panel in the shop, I'd do it the proper way, instead of using a DB.

 

[mino]

Thanks.

What I had on mind was just a bigger version of the setup I posted. That is what we use. No fixed install.

Just a bit bigger as we had it custom made (easy here, many companies do/sell these custom for building site use).

The main one is that the infeed may support "up to", say, 63A on the socket, but that does not mean one cannot plug it into a 16A socket. I it is just a max limit on the distrib box side. I mention it because the ones we use are configured for 16A@3x400V but were acquired as customised version of a 63A@3x400V ones because we wanted many sockets directly on the box which the smaller 16A ones, like on the photo, do not provide.

In a way, it functions as a big "power extender" and allows us to also avoid any extender "chains". Static tools like a CNC or a static vac plug directly into the distrib box while hand tools have a single-step extender setup going to the workstations.

EDIT:
searched too and it seems in GB/US this type of a distrib box is either way way less common or has a different/special name, sorry for mystification, did not realize that

example, this is how it is called in czech:
https://www.google.com/search?q=přenosný+stavební+rozvaděč

EDIT2:
Ok, so language .. the correct term is "(portable) (construction) switchboard" not a distribution box which seems to be reserved for static setups.

 

[Cheese]

Speaking of centralized power, Jason Bent had an interesting post a few months (maybe a year? I don't have the time to look it up right now) ago about a system that provides electronic blast gate control but also power relays for equipment, so that everything in the shop can be turned off from a central switch (or even an app, I'm sure).  My only current option, were I to build out a shop in my garage, would be to throw the sub-panel breaker for the entire garage, which would also disable my garage opener and radon pump.  I'm sure most hobbyists are in a similar position, possibly even without the sub panel.

When I built the new garage I opted to install a 200 amp Leviton panel in the garage despite having a Square D panel that powers the house which meant my "handles" wouldn't match which makes me crazy.  [smile]

Leviton makes "Smart breakers" which means they can be turned on/off with an app on your phone. The idea was, that I could cut power to the overhead door to thwart potential theft as well as cut power to the shop tools that were still plugged in to protect against any power surge.

We get a lot of lightning storms in the summer in the late evening/early morning hours. Two years ago I lost a Festool TCL 3 charger and a Festool MXC charger during one of these storms.

The "Smart breakers" aren't cheap but they do work well. The standard 20 amp breaker is $7 while the smart version is about $130 but I only need 3 of them. They can also be programed to turn on & off on different time schedules which is what I plan on doing.
1...Garage door circuit  2...White power tool circuit  3...Black power tool circuit

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https://www.continentaldoorco.com/blog/preventing-garage-door-hacking/