Hammer B3 vs. Felder KF500

[HowardH]

I have a dilemma.  I currently own a K3 Winner and I'm considering upgrading to either a B3 or KF500.  I got the bid for the Felder - $10,300.  I think the Hammer version would be about $2500 less.  Is it worth spending the extra to get the Felder version?  I was told most of the guts are the same.  It's a big jump up to the x-roll table and having the removable spindle could be a good thing.  I guess part of the decision would be how much I could sell my existing unit for.  It's a lot of money and I've been happy with my Hammer.  Would I be even happier with the Felder? BTW, I was told today that although they are going to have a general price increase in a couple of weeks, the prices in the U.S. would probably remain the same or even go down a bit on certain machines.

 

[jacko9]

Since you like great tools, get the Felder and think of the extra cost in terms of dollars/year owned.

Jack

 

[junk731]

Howard the 2 machines are very similar except for the X-Roll slider which has a "P"rail, the interchangable spindles and a better range of fences. The internals are basically the same until you get to the "S" series. Then it has the internals of the 700 series. What you have to do is define your needs and reconcile that with your pocket book. The only real advantage IMHO is if you want to get a router spindle and that alone will be the cost of a reasonably good router table. If you have pile of money, the room and going to do it professionally I will always suggest the Felder and the KF700S covers all the bases.

John

 

[Iceclimber]

I think if you find yourself wanting for something "a tool" and know you will use it just buy exactly what you know your heart wants the first time. Even if you have to save a little longer or put off the purchase of another tool for a while.

In my experience when you settle you always remember you settled and wish for the machine you really wanted. I did not learn this lesson with machines as it am new to collecting machines. I have applied this lesson to many other areas of my life and it works at least for me. Another person gets all excited on saving money on one tool so they could get two tools.

Me i know eventually ill have all the tools i want. I would much rather long term have a shop full of exactly the tools i wanted than a bunch i settled on.

Like the dilemma i am going through with the Planer/jointer combo machine at the moment. Im going to get a 12" machine and want the 16" that decision was mostly made due to having to get a 1300lb machine into my basement workshop. If i went 16" i would hands down hold out till i could afford the Felder AD 741.

Being i cant go 16" i have pretty much decided on the MiniMax FS30 Classic that i will upgrade to a Shelix cutter head down the road. Reason being it seems a much kore robust machine akin to the AD741 but in a 12" size something Felder nor Hammer offer in the size range.

 

[junk731]

There was a reason Felder didn't go with the byrd head design  and designed there own. The smaller diameter heads that both machines have have a tendency to leave a very slight scallop because of knife orientation. I took a look at the MiniMax site and the first thing that hit me about the J/P was the porkchop style guard that they use for the US machines. It doesn't sound like much but after using the Euroguard you will understand. The change over time for knives is not a major concern, when I had my Hammer A3-31 the change over time was about 10 minutes. The cobalt knives (M42) offered by Felder are quite nice and have a very long life especially being double sided and are reasonably priced. Just for the record Felder has the AD541 which is 12" machine. The story from my salesman who is also the manager is people typically go for the A3-31 with the spiral head on price point so very few AD531 are sold. On the other hand sales of AD741 are signifcant. I don't think you will be unhappy with the Minimax, I'm just offering some of reasons I went the Felder route.

John

 

[Iceclimber]

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

If i go the MiniMax route i will get the Euro guard without question when i place the order. I may try and use it as a bargaining tool however i hear unlike Felder Minimax does not negotiate.

I talked to my Felder rep and gave me the same explanation to the AD541. If i purchased the Ad541 and added the silent cutter head i am close to the cost of the AD741 and it comes standard with the silent cutter head. The real detractor for me in going with the AD 741 is the 1100lb weight. I just cant move that kimda weight into my shop. Lets not pretend the cost is prohibitive also but i might do it if i could get it into my shop.

My logic with the Minimax FS30 is this. It is probably more on par with quality of build to say the AD531 and less expensive. Sure it does not have the spiral cutter block but i bet the right Tersa knife with work just fine for me even on my figured woods. One other thought on knives is i often work with Teak and it trashes anything it touches. I am thinking the time and cost involved in changing or rotating spiral cutter heads will be much more significant than just swapping out a few Tersa knives. The reality is i am a furniture guy so hand planing and sanding will always exist to some degree. Sure the least of both i can get away with is optimal but im always going to do some.

As is now i would say when using my Dewalt lunch box planer i go through a set of knives per project as i always work with rough lumber that require i fully dimension it. The stuff i purchase is way to expensive to let anyone else near it hence not letting the retailer do at least some of the work for me.

Im actually about to get into the car in 5 minutes to go take a look at a A3-31 eith spiral cutter in person. Who knows maybe i change my mind. It is much less expensive. Machine than the MiniMax or Felder...

There was a reason Felder didn't go with the byrd head design  and designed there own. The smaller diameter heads that both machines have have a tendency to leave a very slight scallop because of knife orientation. I took a look at the MiniMax site and the first thing that hit me about the J/P was the porkchop style guard that they use for the US machines. It doesn't sound like much but after using the Euroguard you will understand. The change over time for knives is not a major concern, when I had my Hammer A3-31 the change over time was about 10 minutes. The cobalt knives (M42) offered by Felder are quite nice and have a very long life especially being double sided and are reasonably priced. Just for the record Felder has the AD541 which is 12" machine. The story from my salesman who is also the manager is people typically go for the A3-31 with the spiral head on price point so very few AD531 are sold. On the other hand sales of AD741 are signifcant. I don't think you will be unhappy with the Minimax, I'm just offering some of reasons I went the Felder route.

John

 

[jacko9]

The one comment I would add is that the Shelix cutter head leaves a rippled surface that needs to be sanded after planing.  The ripples are that noticable unlike the finish I get with my solid carbide blades on my Jointer.

I'm sure this finish is a result of the Shelix design and has been talked about on this forum as well as others so you might want to take this into consideration as you make your choice.

Jack

 

[Iceclimber]

Rippled left to right or rippled lengthwise?

I just got back from looking at a A3-31. The Hammer rep was nice enough to set me up with a very very nice gentleman he sold the machine to a couple years ago now.

All i can say is that silent cutter head is AMAZING!

It puts my 6" Yates machine with straight knives and Dewalt lunch box plainer to shame. I sent a piece of birdseye i had bern suffering terrible tear out on both my machines with brand new knives through his machine with knives that have not been flipped or rather rotated sine he purchased it and the finish was near perfect!

This is pretty unbelievable being the guy had a saw mill on his property and claimed to have sent thousands of board feet through the machine.

The 12" jointer table is much bigger in person than i expected. The planer table does seem a bit small.

Mechanically the machine is as nice s machine i can imagine could be made. That silent cutter head is impressive just to look at. My intuition that the machine overall is not built tank like was accurate though. I would still love to stand in front of and throw a few boards through the MiniMax before i make my final decision.

For the savings over the MiniMax i am inclined to just go with the Hammer Machine. The reality is after throwing a couple boards through it it could not have done a better job.

The one comment I would add is that the Shelix cutter head leaves a rippled surface that needs to be sanded after planing.  The ripples are that noticable unlike the finish I get with my solid carbide blades on my Jointer.

I'm sure this finish is a result of the Shelix design and has been talked about on this forum as well as others so you might want to take this into consideration as you make your choice.

Jack

 

[HowardH]

you won't regret it.  The Hammer is simply outstanding, especially the silent power head.  After having a Dewalt 735 that was as loud as a F-18 taking off, It's so quiet it doesn't disturb anyone else in the house.  Hearing protection really isn't all that necessary. 

 

[Iceclimber]

Yeah i cant stress enough the cut was dam near perfect. The only thing wrong with the cut was due to me "user error" as i was not used to a Euro fence. I got some horizontal lines because my feed rate was a atrocity being i was not keeping the board moving. Still even those horizontal lines are so insignificant i could easily sand them out with 220 in no time.

Its just my ego that wants the Felder or MiniMax machine and thats a terrible reason in my opinion. Any time you want just for wanting its abad thing in my opinion.

Still i have yet to get the MiniMax idea completely out of my head. I really wish i could just get myself in front of one so i can put it out of my mind and not buy the Hammer then spend the rest of my life wondering if i would have been more happy with the MiniMax.

you won't regret it.  The Hammer is simply outstanding, especially the silent power head.  After having a Dewalt 735 that was as loud as a F-18 taking off, It's so quiet it doesn't disturb anyone else in the house.  Hearing protection really isn't all that necessary.

 

[jacko9]

You asked about the ripple with the Shelix cutter, the pattern is parallel with the cutter head (cross wise on the board being fed through).  This cutter is pretty quite and cuts very well even in exotics like rosewood but, the ripple does require at least 100 grit sanding to remove.  I recently built a white oak desk and noticed that after sanding that the boards were of different thickness and luckily I had cut the joints before sanding.  If there was a better cutting head available for my OLD Powermatic planer I would have preferred a machine that left me a reasonable surface finish.  If this is a concern for you and if you need additional information I can see if I can photograph the surface finish as it comes out of the machine.  I should say that this has been consistant since I had the cutter head installed.

Jack

 

[Iceclimber]

Hmm,

Well that sounds like exactly what i got. I assumed it had to do with a uneven feed rate on my part.

It seems to me like both style knifes have their pros and cons. I will say this the lack of tear out in the highly figured birdseye i ran through was seen as a huge leap forward in the right direction from what i am used to with straight knives.

I would think for the most part any piece of wood out of a machine is going to require some hand work before finish.

I dont know what i dont know though and if the Tersa cutter head on the right machine can offer a comparable finish even on highly figured wood as the silent/spiral cutter than i really should consider it as i do like that MiniMax machine. Plus having the option to change knifes in a few minutes and run a rough cut set and finish cut set sounds pretty good also.

Pictures would be appreciated.

You asked about the ripple with the Shelix cutter, the pattern is parallel with the cutter head (cross wise on the board being fed through).  This cutter is pretty quite and cuts very well even in exotics like rosewood but, the ripple does require at least 100 grit sanding to remove.  I recently built a white oak desk and noticed that after sanding that the boards were of different thickness and luckily I had cut the joints before sanding.  If there was a better cutting head available for my OLD Powermatic planer I would have preferred a machine that left me a reasonable surface finish.  If this is a concern for you and if you need additional information I can see if I can photograph the surface finish as it comes out of the machine.  I should say that this has been consistant since I had the cutter head installed.

Jack

 

[Wooden Skye]

Will Minimax sales guy put you in touch with someone that has the machine you want?  Taking a test drive of the hammer shows you what you can expect, known quality.  If you can't try the MM, then you may regret if buying without trying before hand.

 

[Iceclimber]

If i cant test drive the MM i will hands down but the Hammer. I might be tmepted to hold out for a Felder but again thats just me being greedy.

Will Minimax sales guy put you in touch with someone that has the machine you want?  Taking a test drive of the hammer shows you what you can expect, known quality.  If you can't try the MM, then you may regret if buying without trying before hand.

 

[andvari]

you won't regret it.  The Hammer is simply outstanding, especially the silent power head.  After having a Dewalt 735 that was as loud as a F-18 taking off, It's so quiet it doesn't disturb anyone else in the house.  Hearing protection really isn't all that necessary.

I went down to Delaware to see the A3-31 with silent power a couple of weeks ago. With me I brought a really nasty sample of wood - a 10' wide piece of hard, heavily figured curly maple that had a bit of a twist in it. The A3-31 really did a great job with it. The guys there resawed, jointed and planed it. After jointing it was flat and smooth with just a little bit of tearout. It's quite possible to say it could have been finished right out of the machine. Maybe somebody fussier than I would have noticed some ripples. I didn't.

I am hoping for delivery along with a N4400 bandsaw in April.

 

[g1_lo]

I just had the N4400 delivered and commissioned alongside their planer/thicknesser.

I asked the technician his thoughts on choosing between the hammer and the 700 felder panel saws.

He just said if you can afford the difference you won't be disappointed. He said the build quality on the x roll table is immense.

Here in the UK they usually put you in touch with someone with the machine your looking at. Whereby you can meet them and see it in action and get a first hand review. Which is great as it allows you too make a commercial decision rather than a heart one.

 

[junk731]

Iceclimber you will find that with any machine with the silentpower or byrd type head that it takes noticeably more effort to joint in comparison to straight knives. This is due to the cutangle necessary for the carbide inserts on both heads. With more use the jointing gets better. Typically when we joint, the surface is not perfect even leaving some rough sawn in the mid section but both edges are parallel and flat so it can be run through the planer. The planer then does all the work on both sides with its even feed rate and consistent pressure. The small planer table is a fact on almost all newer J/P's and really isn't a problem because the board should be flat from jointing and planer section has pressure rollers to keep the wood firmly in contact with the surface. When considering which machine you should get remember that Felders/Hammers are in many ways like Festool for resale and retain their value extremely well making potential upgrading easy.

John

 

[Iceclimber]

Already looking at double drum sanders.

Thats gonna be a while as i will have to add a additional 100amp electrical service to my existing 100amp service.

Think a couple years down the road "a while"...

So for now this jointer planer combo had better do everything good enough that minimal hand work can be done to get me a finished product.

This tool thing really is a sickness.

In a way it will be a relief to have purchased all the machines my heart can desire and get to just building stuff and collecting wood

I really do prefer spending my money on wood than machines. True story!

Iceclimber you will find that with any machine with the silentpower or byrd type head that it takes noticeably more effort to joint in comparison to straight knives. This is due to the cutangle necessary for the carbide inserts on both heads. With more use the jointing gets better. Typically when we joint, the surface is not perfect even leaving some rough sawn in the mid section but both edges are parallel and flat so it can be run through the planer. The planer then does all the work on both sides with its even feed rate and consistent pressure. The small planer table is a fact on almost all newer J/P's and really isn't a problem because the board should be flat from jointing and planer section has pressure rollers to keep the wood firmly in contact with the surface. When considering which machine you should get remember that Felders/Hammers are in many ways like Festool for resale and retain their value extremely well making potential upgrading easy.

John

 

[junk731]

Howard I have to apologize for my part in taking your post so far sideways from your original question. I hope you don't mind and found some of the info useful.

John

 

[HowardH]

Yes, it did veer off the road a bit!  ;D  Not a problem though.  It's all good!