Has anyone used this before for cabinets?

Deansocial said:
Ken Nagrod said:
I tried contacting Brooks, the owner.  He can't even handle a phone.  My opinion, stick with the tried and true, let someone else be the guinea pig.

is that your opinion when the plungle saw came out or the domino?

Dean, you've been hanging out with JMB too long.  [tongue]  My statement was based on the premise that this is something new (at least to us) and if I can't even get proper phone support from the manufacturer, why would I want to try his products and possibly have a problem or question that required their assistance.  That's why I'd stick with the shims for the time being and I usually use the plastic ones so I don't have to worry about compression or splitting.

The best cabinet installation method is a 2 person job.  One person holds the base cabinets level and the other directs the cement pumper truck pour.  Hopefully it sets up fast for the first guy.
 
Come to think of it I remember as an apprentice back in the late 80's that the kitchens (cheap ones) that I fitted on housing sites had sides that went all the way to the floor. We had to trim or pack them up depending on how bad the floor was. Ever since then every single kitchen I've ever fitted has had plastic legs and I've fitted thousands in my time.

As for fitting time of the legs, they take seconds if you know what you're doing and in the scheme of things its nothing, probably takes me longer to unwrap the units  [laughing]
 
My kitchen has those plastic adjustable legs. I thought it was the easiest kitchen I have ever installed.  Just set the box and lay down and adjust the feet to the desired height, it just doesn't get much simpler. I really like the clip on toe kicks as well, a few times I needed to fish a wire or set ant traps, just pop a kick off and snap it back on. I wish more manufactures in the US would use the plastic legs, I know the first time I saw them I thought they were junk but boy they sped up my install time.

Dave
 
I recently installed a berloni job (italian manufacturer) and was non-plussed about the legs.  Yes, it was fast to level to the cabinets, but it was offset by the install time spent on putting the damn things on.  And god forbid you slide a tall pantry unit without wearing your kid gloves.  Particle board garbage couldn't handle the stress and the legs would break out of.the hole

Luckily, like Mastercabman said, cabinets here are manufactured with full length end panels.  So i'll stick with shims.
 
Good afternoon Festool members;

I was invited to log-in for the purpose of answering some of your questions / concerns about our product, the EZ-Level Cabinet Leveling & Stabilization System.  First let me say that I have been remodeling houses since 1985 and kitchens for the past 10 years or so. Before the economy died we had a 3 month waiting list for any new kitchen remodel, as we only had 3 crews running at the time. Our kitchens ranged from $10,000 – $120,000.
There are parts of a remodel that warrant time spent, but wasting time on any part of that remodel destroys overall profitability. All good managers know this and spend countless hours assessing and adjusting so that every hour spent on a job is profitable.

Shims were out of the question, and like many of you, we tried the other levelers including the ABS Plastic Legs. However, I noticed that in almost every case two men would be tied up leveling… as one was crawling underneath the cabinets while the other was looking at the laser line. Not to mention they shear off if you try to scoot the cabinets around. (which happens a lot) We also built ladder boxes (or toe-kick bases) but that wasn’t much quicker (albeit more stable)

Therefore I set out to develop a system (for our own needs) that would adjust through the toe kick so that one crew member can level a kitchen quickly while the others move onto something more profitable. I spent 3 months engineering our system and at the time it was ugly, but it solved the problem immediately…with the exception of the fact that the other crew members would stand there and WATCH as the other would laser level the kitchen … because it was “cool”.  However it gave me an idea. Because it’s so unique and cool to watch we started to “promote” the system to our customers, therefore we named it the EZ-Level. By doing so we had customers inviting their neighbors, and friends to watch as we split the laser beam in minutes. Some even posted on you tube! The word got out quickly and the phone started to ring with new orders because of the levelers.  Who would have thought?

So I spent the next years perfecting and patenting it to sell on the open market. Surprising to me was that 80% our customers are “homeowners” who in turn give them to their installers to install. Come to find out… they could care less about the time savings… but they care a great deal about the “Long Term” and are all too happy to invest a few extra dollars for the best foundation possible. That gave us another idea. How about offering the EZ-Levels as a premium upgrade for installs?  WOW… who would have ever guessed that 95% would be eager to pay for a leveling system? Now… they don’t cost a dime for a lot of jobs.

So here is the scoop:
1. Installation - It takes approximately 10 minutes for me to install levelers on an entire kitchen. (the first job will take you an hour to read the directions etc) Most installers that have been using our system say it takes approx. 15 minutes to install the levelers. There is no measuring because we include a drilling jig to mark for the holes in the toe-kick. Drilling the hole with a paddle bit is not easy so we sell a “step bit” which bores the whole in about 15 seconds.

2. Time Savings - At the Vegas KBIS show I demonstrated LIVE… Laser leveling an entire kitchen in less than 5 minutes! I also have a video of a kitchen whereby I laser leveled a kitchen in 4 mins and 13 seconds.  On the job I usually laser level kitchens in about 10 minutes.

3. Other Problems - On my own kitchen I had 4 pieces of granite installed around a wall which meant that the granite itself was not perfectly flat. In that case I simply continued to adjust the cabinets after the granite was sat into place… so that they fully supported the granite. In essence I had to “un-level the cabinets”, but it fixed the issue in a few minutes.

4. Missing tile – Sometimes the tile is missing where the old cabinets used to be. Sometimes the new cabinets set half way on top of those tiles. Before our levelers… that was a time suck… but with the EZ-Level system it simple doesn’t matter. You could set the cabinets on gravel and leaser them.

5. Water protection – To me it’s a big deal because I sold a TON of kitchens to folks who had a small water leak (from their ice line or whatever) which trashed their cabinets. Insurance companies paid me for their new cabinets but they never paid for the new back splash, or anything else because they weren’t technically damaged. In every case the customer ended up losing money.  Plywood cabinets were not covered for replacement… those had to be removed and refinished as they are not a total loss according to the insurance company.

6. Cost – You do not need two sets of levelers per cabinet. Cabinet runs only need levelers on each side and at each seam (like fence posts). This yields a cost of approximately $20 per cabinet. (if the customer does not pay for the leveling system)

7. If your competition is still using shims and your customer sees our video, you will win the bid every single time. Once a customer is informed of things like Thermal expansion, settling etc they will demand a leveling system that fastens securely to the cabinet. That way they stay put no matter what.

8. I sell composite shims on my site because you still need them when it comes time to fasten the cabinets to the wall. There will always be a gap that needs filling. Screw through the cabinet, shim and into the wall. (I provide any and all tools I find helpful to my customers)

9. I also gained two kitchen jobs (both over 30,000) because the clients wanted to keep the existing granite in place. No one else would attempt it but we did. We simply stuck the ez-levels on 34” 2x4’s and used them as little jacks holding up the granite while we cut the old cabinets out… one at a time. Both jobs were VERY hard to do but we charged them HOURLY and they didn’t care. (also we had to cut to bottoms of the toe-kicks off because they had tiled “to” the old cabinets. ) We did so… slid them in… dropped them into the hole and leveled them up until each corner rested on the granite. My customers were elated!  (I was relieved).

10. I also gain numerous OLD HOUSE remodels. We have a lot of 100 year old homes on the beach and they love our system. If the house settles in a year… just tweak the levelers to make sure everything is still stable. (those jobs are usually higher priced remodels too which is always good)

11. Can I laser every single kitchen in less than 5-10 minutes? Not always…  Most of the time… yes. Some of our larger kitchens take a bit longer. Big islands take time, and some kitchens are a disaster from the start… or their cabinets aren’t flush on top or something. But here’s the cool thing. Even if it takes me 20 minutes to laser those kitchens… just imagine what it would have taken me without the EZ-Level system!

EZ-Level Reviews - Here is the bottom line for me:
*Time is money… and the EZ-Level’s save a lot of time.
*Having a reputation for using the best materials, tools and methodology gains long term referrals.
*Protecting customers from potential long term disasters also gains referrals.

Those are the reasons why we have so many contractors who purchase the EZ-Level system every single month. It improves their overall bottom line.
Thank you Ken for allowing me an opportunity to respond to the group.
 
Thanks Ken... Glad to be here.
I found a pretty cool photo of the job that I described earlier whereby we had to remove the guys cabients while keeping his granite in place.
(still... very scarey to do... but we got it done). Funny... while looking for the photo I realized that we ended up with his kitchen, both bathrooms, and his laundry room... all because we could do this one thing.
I've attached the photo... hopefully it comes through on the post.
 
For built-in cupboards I almost always use shimes to level up the skirting base first then put the main cabinets on that. To try and fit the plastic legs on large cabinets like that is a bit of a nightmare, because tilting the cabinet upright can often break the plastic legs, and adjusting the legs with all that weight is nearly impossible. Now for kitchens the plastic legs work like a treat. Just my  [2cents]
 
Brook
You state  $20.00 per cabinets,  How much do you get per cabinets for installes?
I do see the ez -level to be a great thing but at $20.00 per cabinets?
What happen when you have a job that has 20 cabinets,you spend $400.00 on the job?
For new construction i'm lucky to get $20-$25.00 per cabinets.
How can you make any money? 
I still think that using shims  ($4-$5 a bundle) is wayyy cheaper and just as fast.
Please tell me how do you figure the cost of those ez-level legs?
 
I use 2x6 ripped to give me the 4" hieght of the toe kick to make a base. Ill screw the base together, level it and place the cabs om the base. If I have a sub flor Ill use some brackets to attach the base to the sub floor. Then I ust set the cabs on the base, shim behind and attach the cabs to the wall and screw the cabs together.

Its fairly quick and easy to do it this way.
 
Good afternoon mastercabman;
I agree... our products were never suited for those applications (paid by the box only). If you are paid a flat fee of $20-$25 per cabinet and there is no way to reach the end user (homeowner)... there is no money to pay for the levelers. I installed for a few builders around here I remember... Many of them ONLY care about the price.

Our products are best suited for medium to high end cabinet dealers/installers who have larger margins to work with. When I looked at what I would pay my crew... versus the cost of the levelers the decision was obvious. I came out ahead every single time using the levelers. Our standard protocol was this: Once the bases were set into place... one man would level the kitchen while the others would start cleaning up... putting saws in the trailers etc. (one day there was a competition whereby our chief installer bet lunch that he could level up the cabinets before the chop saw was blown off and loaded into the trailer. (he lost buy it was pretty close)

Also... don't forget, clients are usually happy to pay a little extra to protect their cabinets and granite. Remember, If they hired professionals they are open to (and hoping for) good suggestions and will almost always choose the best foundation possible (so long as the price is reasonable).

As far as building toe-kick bases or ladder boxes like sancho57 does. That was the only real solution for us before the ez-levels, but I was looking for a quicker more cost effective solution. I have clients who buy the ez-levels for some jobs... and use ladder boxes on others. (just depends on the layout, price point etc).
 
If you are having to "Blow Off" the chop saw then you are using the wrong chop saw  [poke]  ;)
 
I have a question for all the pro's.  I was considering purchasing the ez level system for my kitchen install.  The big draw to me was screwing multiple cabinets together on their backs and installing a row of cabinets as one piece, thus making sure the cabinet faces and tops are flush.  Is there a way to do this with shims, or do you have to set one cabinet at a time and individually level each one? Thanks for the help.
 
Coming from a homeowner's/DIY-er point of view, I agree with what Brooks said in the 4th paragraph of his long post above in that the initial time & money invested is well worth the security of a solidly supported outcome.  No call-backs which favors both the customer & the contractor outside of a failed EZLevel adjuster.  I don't care what it takes up front because, once they're installed, I don't wanna know nothin' about anything going wrong that results in even the thought of re-pulling my cabs out once everything's completely installled.  As long as those little pivot pins on the adjusters don't fail - considering that's technically the point where all the weight of the cabs lie - I know my cabs will stay right where I positioned them.  Plus, I like the idea that I can always re-adjust them later to assist in making up for any slight discrepancies, imperfections, or settling with regard to the resting/contact points of the counter top should it be sitting out-of-level w/o having to pull my cabs out again.  As for prep & installation of the levelers, it took me longer to read the instructions than to actually install them.  Once I completely installed the first one, the rest were easy as pie.  Took mere minutes for each one.  I almost wish there was more involved to justify the cost of the levelers & tools I invested in! (about $325 total for laser, clamps. tools/bits/screws, & levelers).  Can you imagine; complaining about something because it went well?  I"ll never even consider helping anyone I know do cabs w/o these.  FWIW, Brooks was also courteously helpful to me on the phone & I already let the owner of the local hardware store down the street, which I visit often, know about the EZLevel website.   

Regards,
Spacehog
Formerly a DIY-er, now a professional!
(OK, OK, I won't get carried away there..)
 
This is an old thread, however, I was wondering if there has been any more recent experiences with the EZ-Level system by FOG members. I am currently designing and building three walk-in closets for my home and have been trying to decide on which leveling system to use: ladder frame (plus shims), plastic (plinth) feet or the EZ-Levers.

The EZ-Level system looks good for a DIY guy like me where cost/profit isn't the issue. On the other side of this argument, I suppose, it could be said that the time to level with a ladder frame is not really an issue for the DIYer?

Specific questions include:

1. How would you deal with any resulting gap from using the EZ-Level system at the bottom of the cabinet side at the end of the cabinet run? (Using the plastic foot leveling system this is not an issue because of the clip on base board system. Likewise, it is not an issue with the ladder frame approach since the base board is fit after leveling.)

2. For DIYer working alone, would the plastic or EZ-level systems be easier to use and level than the ladder frame? Also, would it make more sense to level each cabinet sequentially, if working alone, rather than joining a run of cabinets together?

I should qualify the above by stating that this is the first time I that I will have built my own closest organizers cabinets. I do have some experience installing IKEA cabinets in my basement using the plastic (plinth) feet system and found this system easy and effective to use. I also noticed that Danny Proulx seems to recommend the use of the adjustable plastic leg level system in his book "Building Frameless Kitchen Cabinets". As a result, I am leaning towards using either the plastic (plinth) feet or EZ-Level systems. Am I on the right track?

Thanks in advance.

Bryan

 
I never bought any but met someone who tried them
For a professional cabinets installer like myself I just can't justify the cost
The guy that I met told me that he will not use them again.he did like them but just not enough money in the job
It's just way too much and its not that much faster and better than using standard cedar shims
I can level my cabinets much faster with shims
However it is a clever way to level your cabinets and if money is no object then give it a try
 
Not sure how you lot do it all but I have a female friend who installs a lot of kitchens, she's about eight stone dripping wet (think that's about 112 Lbs in Liberian money) and she manages fine on her own with the base cabinets with normal adjustable legs like you get from Howdens and Magnet in the UK.

The only time she needs a hand is on large worktops.
 
demographic said:
Not sure how you lot do it all but I have a female friend who installs a lot of kitchens, she's about eight stone dripping wet (think that's about 112 Lbs in Liberian money) and she manages fine on her own with the base cabinets with normal adjustable legs like you get from Howdens and Magnet in the UK.

The only time she needs a hand is on large worktops.

I think you have missed how Americans level their units.
It's very slow and outdated and not really the best way.

To me this system would be a massive improvement on their end. Especially because how the build their units.

For us in the UK we have plastic legs with adjustment and using a system like this would be going a step backwards for us. Especially because our units would need to be made with extended side panels.    Our legs now just clip on you don't even have to screw them just bang them on in a hole job done. They are also cheap.

However this system I can see coming in very handy for custom build units which sit on the floor without a plinth or skirting.  You could hide these in the pillars.

 
Firestorm said:
This is an old thread, however, I was wondering if there has been any more recent experiences with the EZ-Level system by FOG members. I am currently designing and building three walk-in closets for my home and have been trying to decide on which leveling system to use: ladder frame (plus shims), plastic (plinth) feet or the EZ-Levers.

I installed a set on a short cabinet between the stove and the fridge. I liked them alot, easy to adjust by myself. I will also use them on the other side of the kitchen when I redo that area.

I didn't have to deal with the cabinet side gap because it is covered by the stove.
 
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