Help me plan my new shop.

[erock]

Hey FOGERS!

  So here's the deal.  Some of you may know that I'm building my moms kitchen cabinets and recording the process.

Well, I'm tired of moving things around.  I'm sure some of you guys know what I'm talking about…..move something to move something just to get to something….then move that thing

again!  [scared]

Well, I'm tired of having to move things around….so I've decided to look into building a 24 x 24 OR  26 x 26 garage in the back yard.  26 x26 is the largest outbuilding that I can build

where I live.  It will be a woodworking shop ONLY !    [big grin]  No yard equipment.  NO patio furniture….NO parking spot for the wife.  Just tools !!!

So I'm looking for ideas from you guys.  What size shops do you have?  I'm sure some of you would say just build the 26 x 26 and go with it….but if I don't need the space…why waist it?

At lease that's my thought process now.  I have plans on adding a Hammer A3 to my  new shop as well as………yes, maybe even a table saw!  [eek]    And other great tools. 

I'll have at lease a 200 amp panel.  220v and 110v  20 amp outlets.  Pretty much the best of the best…..but I don't know what the best is yet.  So if you could share your best feature

of your shop…..or if you built your shop and would do something different and share that with me  I would really appreciate it ! 

I'm going to sub out the foundation and slab work.  But build the rest myself.  I'm planning on using 2x6's for the walls so I can get more insulation in the walls.

I'm thinking T11 for the siding?  I could use help/input on that.

Instead of a garage door, I'm thinking French doors instead……I'm thinking a big garage door would be a big heating/cooling loss.

So how are you guys heating your shops?  How are you guys lighting your shops?  What are you guys doing for flooring? 

So yeah……any help you guys can provide would be great!  Today is  day one of thinking about this and starting the planning of the build. 

I'm calling the auditor tomorrow to see how it will increase the property tax.  And the electric company to find out what is involved in running power to the new garage…and then

the city to find out what's allowed.  So maybe this spring or summer something might take off?!

If all goes well,  I have some projects lined up that could pay for the majority of this build.  I may be building 2 - 3 other sets of kitchen cabinets and a couple entrainment centers…..

so fingers crossed, this little hobby of mine might start pay for itself.  The budget for the new shop is around $30K…but the more I can save on the build can go into better tools  [wink]

Thanks in advance for any input/suggestions your guys can provide.

Eric

 

[Scott B.]

I think my top 3, from the construction of our production shop (which gained the benefit of everything we didn't do for our first shop, which is our spray shop):

1. Do radiant slab heat
2. Epoxy finish on the concrete for cleanability
3. Put everything in the shop that is not bolted to the wall on casters

And, I would do an overhead. I just hate banging into mandoor jambs and cases with things.

Carriage house style on outside. Zip system with blocking for vertical shiplap.

Plan to spend about $400k  [scared] jk

 

[erock]

  400k !  [scared]  [eek]

I better think about putting a bed and shower in the shop……cause the wife will never let me back into the house !    [tongue]  [wink]

Now I have to research radiant slab heating    [scratch chin]

Yes,  casters will be on everything !!!  Thanks Scott !

Eric

 

[GreenGA]

If for any reason you do not install radiant heat, consider using a crawl space with heavier 2-by material. A crawl space will allow you to pipe everything; heat, power, dust extraction, etc..., under the floor, rather than trying to figure out were to run everything afterwards.

 

[Paul G]

Since I have no dedicated shop I have no experience to share. Fascinated that $30k would build it, around here about 1/3-1/2 that would be eaten up by all the various govt entities that must be paid off before getting a permit. Will be watching this thread with interest since I'm also in the planning stages.

 

[erock]

If for any reason you do not install radiant heat, consider using a crawl space with heavier 2-by material. A crawl space will allow you to pipe everything; heat, power, dust extraction, etc..., under the floor, rather than trying to figure out were to run everything afterwards.

 Very interesting!    That way if I buy a table saw I can run the dust collection under the floor……thanks for bringing that up!  I've just added this to my notes.

Eric

 

[tbellemare]

Eric:

I think GreenGA's idea of a crawl space type construction is intriguing also.

If it were me wanting to build anything, I would start some detailed plans and add detailed costing (to all of the details). You might find that the total is overwhelming. When you have all of the details in front of you, you can then determine where there are ways to combine/streamline/eliminate things to save on immediate costs and time. Time can easily turn in to money fast...

Tom

 

[RKA]

I'm using a minisplit heat pump to heat and cool the garage.  Our winters are fairly mild, but I tested it for the heck of it last week.  2-4F outside and it was pushing out heat!  (It's rated to operate down to 5F). Anyway, if you want to go down that road, hit me up.  I've even saved the tools which you're welcome to borrow.  

That said, for your climate, cooling is probably an indulgence.  You'll probably appreciate the rapid heat rise from a natural gas heater since it's a hobby garage.  So if you go that route, don't forget to call the gas company too.  You're not going to get that rapid heat rise from radiant, so plan on keeping the temps relatively constant with radiant, however, you can't beat the comfort of warm feet.  Whatever route you go, insulate the slab if it's in the budget.  My feeling is I'm compensating for cold concrete by turning up the heat.  

Edit:  you may want to look for a sealed combustion natural gas heater if you plan to do painting out there.  It will cost you more, but it avoids any possibility of the heater igniting fumes in the shop.

 

[CarolinaNomad]

Radiant heating is maximized by using concrete with insulation under the slab.  With radiant heating, you don't need forced air which circulates the dust.  But like others have said, it needs to run constantly.  Also, radiant heating is more energy efficient than forced air heating.

You can always run the dust collection system under the slab as well as conduit for running wiring.  This of course would require some pre planning

You probably have seen this you tube video, but it has some great ideas.

 

[nclemmons]

Check out garagejournal.com -

Plenty of ideas there.  While a lot go toward garage style auto shops, there are also quite a few with general purpose and woodworking shops.

Look forward to following the story!

neil

 

[stvrowe]

I built my shop 23 years ago along with the house and it is a detached 3 car garage with 200 amp service.  Four years ago I finally installed a heat pump for heat and air and it works fairly well but in late afternoon when the sun is beating on the garage doors, the A/C runs nearly continuously.  Hindsight is nearly always 20/20 and with that in mind, I offer the following for your consideration as I would build my shop differently today.

1) A slab is a bad idea, my feet and back hurt after a long day in the shop.  Go with a crawl space with beefed up floor joists, heavy plywood subfloor, and possibly a wood floor to ease your future pain.
2) Don't use a garage door.  They have a lot of pathways for air leakage and the rail system will be a nuisance.
3) Think about how you will get materials into your shop and give advanced thought to how you will store them.
4) For a detached workshop, install a half bath with a utility sink.  ( I didn't and have regretted that decision for years)
5) Consider a separate room for the dust collector and provide access in that room to remove waste material directly to the outside.  A separate room will make your shop quieter as dust collectors are noisy.  Provide a means for returning air from the room back to the general shop space.
6) If you intend on having a compressed air system installed, have a small insulated closet to contain the compressor and minimize noise.
7) On the subject of dust collection piping in crawl spaces I am not a fan.  This is a limited access area for installation and as I have added machinery over the years, I have changed my system around more times than I can remember.  The thought of going into a crawl space to add more ductwork just isn't appealing to me.  Additionally, consider the location of dust collection ports such as the Hammer saw you are considering.  The main dust collection port for this is near the floor level and bending over to operate blast gates (unless you automate them) would be something that would not be kind to my back.
8) I would love to have an office space in my shop (library, computer, drafting table, etc.) but that doesn't sound feasible with the size shop you are limited to unless you install a second floor.
9) The best choice for heat & air is very regional and I would consult with HVAC experts in your area for the best choice for you.  Consider whether you intend on the environmental controls to be used the same way as you do in your house or, whether you intend on cycling it on/off on an as needed basis.  This will impact your choices. 
10) Build your shop as big as possible because tools and machinery are really gases and not solids.  They will expand to conform to the shape and size of whatever container they are placed in and by definition, you never have enough room. [big grin]

Hope the above helps.
Steve

 

[Wooden Skye]

Eric

Some of these are my thoughts for the shop I would like to do as part of an addition 28x18.

If you want French doors, I would put them in, but make sure that you install the appropriate header so if the next person that owns the house wants an actual garage door, at least some of the infrastructure is in place.  This is what my contractor recommended and made sense.  

As for heat, unless i was in the shop all day, I would probably pass on radiant heat.  I think heat would be a place where you need to have multiple options, as a way to cut down some costs.

I would put plumbing for a sink and toilet at least.  

I would want the side walls at least 10 feet, but this depends on what the town allows.

I like the crawl space idea for running MEP, I would also put any dust collection outside the main shop, will help with noise reduction.  

 

[wow]

Build your shop as big as possible because tools and machinery are really gases and not solids.  They will expand to conform to the shape and size of whatever container they are placed in and by definition, you never have enough room. [big grin]
Steve

This explains a lot!  [eek]

 

[ShawnRussell]

My start was lighting.. I went with T8 but should have gone with T5. You can now find LED lighting for about the same price as good T5. Check out Matt Risinger's Youtube for his review of LED lighting; he also has a slew of videos on efficient building practices... I would personally watch all of his videos.

(I hope posting to another forum is ok since this is an article and not the discussion thread)
Here is a link to a a great lighting article: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/content.php?146-Lighting-the-Small-Workshop-by-Jack-Lindsey

I went with the T8 version of this fixture: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lithonia-Lighting-6-Light-T5-High-Output-White-Fluorescent-High-Bay-IBZ-654/203629843#
I wired the lights in banks so that I could turn on sections of lighting and the fixture is set so you can wire odd/even on the lights. I went with 6500K bulbs. Light temperature makes a huge difference. I also bought paint that was color matched to the temperature of the bulbs.

 

[rmwarren]

If for any reason you do not install radiant heat, consider using a crawl space with heavier 2-by material. A crawl space will allow you to pipe everything; heat, power, dust extraction, etc..., under the floor, rather than trying to figure out were to run everything afterwards.

 Very interesting!    That way if I buy a table saw I can run the dust collection under the floor……thanks for bringing that up!  I've just added this to my notes.

Eric

2 thoughts:

1 - If you can use a crawl space DO IT, for the reasons John mentioned and also to avoid a concrete floor. Speaking from experience concrete is cold, tough on your feet over a long day & hard on tool edges (oops). Besides, you can temporarily screw stuff down to a wood floor if necessary.

2 - Heat - look into radiant panels like the Enerjoy - http://www.sshcinc.com/FineWoodworking.pdf. I used this in a previous shop and it was very comfortable and efficient. I only wanted the space kept around 60-65 degrees (my favorite work temp) and it required only a few panels for a 24' by 32' shop. One source is http://www.heatinggreen.com/tag/enerjoy-radiant-heating-panels/. Benefits are clean, no open flames/moving air, expandable and you can install them yourself.

Enjoy the process of designing the shop, you may only get to do it once (I'm jealous...).

RMW

 

[GarryMartin]

Looks like a good thread with some interesting observations and ideas for you to investigate.

One that hasn't been mentioned yet is one that you may or may not want to consider; I'd guess you probably will...  [big grin]

Windows, lighting and ceiling height all have a role to play in video production. You've created some excellent videos that have been very well received, and I'm sure you'll want to go on to make more and better ones.

I'm sure you've seen it, but Marc Spagnuolo does a good job of walking you through his dream build and the decisions he made; some related to video production as well as woodworking.  [wink]

http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/videos/dream-shop-build/

 

[Kev]

Funny how a lot of the core is about heating, when down here my first thoughts would be about being able to completely open up as much of the shop as possible.

I like the underfloor DC thoughts ... great for space saving and a natural place for power, etc. Maybe a grid of large channels if a complete raised floor wasn't practical??

 

[junk731]

Try to go for at  least a 10' ceiling especially with the cabwork your planning. Makes it easier for above floor dust collection too. Try to budget for T5 or LED lighting. Personally I don't think running anything in floor is wise in a small space like 24 x 24 you will be moving equipment to much and as with everything you will want to modify once you have worked in it awhile. Slotwall for the interior walls with lots of 120v/240v sockets. Checkout Garaga high insulation garage doors, I believe mine are R18 or R20. Also some good windows it always nice to see outside.

John

 

[peter halle]

I am a proponent of crawl spaces, and will offer a few thoughts:

1.  In your design phase take into account that if you plan on using a crawl space you will most probably end up with a taller structure because of the necessary clearances.  This may require stairs into your structure based on your lot.  If you end up having beams supporting floor joists, if you have the joists tie into the beams rather than rest on them you can reduce the height.
2.  In your design, if using a crawl, work to make the floor as stiff as financially possible.  If you have long spans of engineered joists there still will be deflection and possible bounciness.
3.  Check to see if you can use a sealed crawl space if you condition the shop.  This in essence would require insulating the inside of the foundation walls and the interior of the rim joists and the bands.  Also you will need to install a heavy vapor barrier and seal it to the foundation walls and any piers.  If you are building yourself this is most easily done before installing joists (vapor barrier) and (foundation insulation).  The bands and rim joists can be insulated after installing the joists and before installing the subfloor.  You might find that this process saves some money (reduce the quantity of insulation) as well as increases your comfort and reduces your heating costs.
4.  Check with your local building department about adding foam insulation to the interior of the studs prior to a wall covering (sheetrock, ply, etc) or to the exterior over any structure sheathing or under the T-111.  If one of these approaches can be used you might be able to get comparable performance to a 2 x 6 wall thru the use of 2 x 4's due to reducing thermal bridging. In a conventional 2 x 4 or 2 x 6 wall the studs are uninsulated and transfer in and out.
5.  Windows are great.  We all need light.  But don't go overboard.  No matter how great a window is, it is still basically a hole in the wall.  My brother who is an architect tells the story of a window rep telling him about all the advances in window performance (essentially doubling the insulating value) and then replying to the rep that he could better design the shell's performance be reducing the number of windows in the structure by 2 using the old design and then save his clients even more money.  Skylights with splayed insulated light shafts and a plexi panel at the ceiling might allow for more diffused lights.
6.  I know Scott likes epoxy coating on floors but I am not a fan of that in a woodworking shop.  Any sawdust on the floor can make it slick.  You might want to look at a commercial VCT tile floor that is just sealed - not waxed.  Comfortable, easier on sharp edges, repairable.  A lighter color will help bounce light.
7.  A water source and drain would be great if it fits in the budget.  If you end up just going with heat, making allowance for the use of a dehumidifier with drainage to the outside or to a piped drain will make it more comfortable in the summer and help with condensation on tools in the transitional months.
8.  Garage door / large door - Another possibility - if it will work aesthetically - are sliding doors.  They can be insulated better than roll up doors, only opened as much as needed, and if opened all the way in favorable weather will allow a ton of light in.  To gain the best of both worlds using something like this in combination could help with temp control:  http://www.teksupply.com/contractor/supplies/ProductDisplay?catalogId=13552&storeId=10001&langId=-1&division=TekSupply&productId=22251  Anyone who has ever worked in a grocery store has seen this installed on every walk-in cooler or freezer.

Sorry for the long post.  Just a few of many thoughts.

Peter

 

[Rob Z]

Hi Eric

My shop is in my garage (on a slab), and I've dealt with the hard surface/back ache problem by installing high-quality interlocking  rubber mats throughout most of the space.  This helps, but it's a bit of a pain to have to pull them up when (infrequently) we have to roll around heavy machinery or carts that will dig into the mats.  Even thought the mats are good, I would really rather have a wood surface with some "give" to it.

But practically speaking, I would LOVE to have access from below, to be able to run power and ductwork, as needed, to machines and work benches.

So I think if I ever can get to the point where you are now, my new-shop-build plans would definitely include space below, whether via a crawl space or basement.