Help please from a Pro painter

[erock]

I'm a hobbyist woodworker with a  time under my belt as a paid carpenter. But  in no way am I  finish guy.  And lets face it, the finish is the final detail that everyone is going to notice. 

I have a HVLP and everything needed to apply a finish, water base or oil.  I understand the work involved in achieving a high end product.

So my question for the pro is :  What poly do you recommend for kitchen cabinets?

I received a phone call from my Mother who wants me to build her dream kitchen.  She wants natural wood.  Probably no staining involved, just going thru
the grits with the sanders, wiping with  denatured alcohol and or  tack cloth (not if it's a water base poly) and spraying a couple coats of poly.

In my area, I have access to Sherwin Williams, Benjamin Moore and of coarse the big box places.

Knowing my Mother, it could be Maple, Cherry or Oak lumber.    I'm taking her to my favorite lumber yard next Saturday.  NO, it's not Lowe's or HD    [tongue]

I'm sure I'm leaving info out and I'm sorry.  But any info or help you brothers can give me would be great.
This project is still in the developmental stage, so I have time to get my resources together.

The best thing about this project is, My Mother knows how big of a Festool nut I am.  She buys me systainers ever Christmas and birthday.
When she called me her first questions was  "what Festool tool do I have to buy you to build my kitchen cabinets?"

OH and I have to install new doors and windows and hardwood flooring AND tile !!    [scared]

But each job led with the question "what Festool would it take for you too......"    [big grin]

Thanks for all the info you guys can pass a long.

Eric

 

[tjbnwi]

Look into;

SW Kem Aqua.

General Finish Enduro.

Both are water bourne. Use their proper sanding sealer.

Which HVLP?

I know Tim used Target, I have yet to use a Target product.

Once the wood is chosen, let us know. Sometimes water polies can be to "clear".

Avoid tack rags, a vacuum for dusting and water may be your best wipe down solvent.

Tom

 

[GPowers]

[popcorn]

 

[erock]

Thanks Tom,

  I have a Wagner 300 HVLP gun and the Rockler HVLP gun.  I know they are not professional grade guns, but for the projects I have done, they have

worked great.  I have a buddy who  will  lend me his Sherwin Williams FinishPro  system (I believe that's the name of it).  But the hose on it is way too

long and thick, it would be a PITA to have in my shop. 

Once the timber is picked I will report back.    Thanks.

Eric

 

[tiralie]

So my question for the pro is :  What poly do you recommend for kitchen cabinets?

Eric:
For me it depends on what my customer or in your case your mother likes/wants. Because it doesn't sound like you are really set up to spray a lot of solvent based finishes I would recommend a water borne finish as it's safer.

Over time, kitchen cabinets (doors and door fronts in particular) can take a beating (kids and us guys) so a tough but flexible (won't chip) finish I think is better for face frames and doors and drawer fronts.  
I would look for coating something that was highly resistant to cleaners and acids like vinegar so you might want to test a two component coating like General Finishes Enduro conversion varnish which is really and post catalyzed urethane or Enduro Pre-Cat Urethane which you can add a cross linker to, to increase it's toughness. I like General Enduro Var or Target EM8000 Conversion Varnish which gives maple a beautiful amber color and it's a tough finish but I would definitely test it first.
As Tom has said, I use Target EM 9000, and it's easy to apply and I have used it for both residential and commercial projects. I really like using the EM 1000 sanding sealer or their Ultra seal shellac based sealer for that solvent based color. You can order Target coatings from their site.  

I received a phone call from my Mother who wants me to build her dream kitchen.  She wants natural wood.  Probably no staining involved, just going thru
the grits with the sanders, wiping with  denatured alcohol and or  tack cloth (not if it's a water base poly) and spraying a couple coats of poly.

In my area, I have access to Sherwin Williams, Benjamin Moore and of coarse the big box places.

Both Sherwin Williams (owns everybody- Minwax, Glidden, Mohawk, Purdy, Krylon, Pratt & Lambert, Thompsons) and Benjamin Moore make good products and you should be able to get products that are similar to the Target and General coatings but you can order Target coatings online and Lee Valley sells General Finishes so you should also be able to source those fairly easily.

Knowing my Mother, it could be Maple, Cherry or Oak lumber.     I'm taking her to my favorite lumber yard next Saturday.  NO, it's not Lowe's or HD    [tongue]

After your mother has picked the type of wood I would definitely do some tests get an approval and lock in the recipe.
Good luck on the trip to the lumber store. Too many choices (for your mother) could lead to longer decision time. [wink]

If you are going to use Cherry, and the kitchen gets a lot of sun you may want to think about a UV protection to make sure the cherry that gets exposed to the sun doesn't change color (compared to the rest) over time. On the other hand your mother might like that look.

I'm sure I'm leaving info out and I'm sorry.  But any info or help you brothers can give me would be great.
This project is still in the developmental stage, so I have time to get my resources together.

I would consider building some drying racks ( like Jeff's here) and spray your carcass pieces before assembly. Spraying inside a box with a HVLP is a PIA . If you are like me and are heavy handed with the spray gun, it's definitely easier to spray sealer on a horizontal surface, to avoid over spray and runs because of it's low viscosity. Because polyurethane can take the handling (cutting, line boring etc.) during assembly, I usually cut my carcass panels to one dimension (width) spray and then cut to length and assemble.

The best thing about this project is, My Mother knows how big of a Festool nut I am.  She buys me systainers ever Christmas and birthday.
When she called me her first questions was  "what Festool tool do I have to buy you to build my kitchen cabinets?"

She sounds like a good negotiator and she's got your number. Building a kitchen is a big job, she better be buying you every Festool available in NA for all that work  [big grin].

Tim

 

[erock]

Tim,

  Thank you for your input.  That is exactly what I needed man!

I never thought about the sun fading the poly!  You are correct, I'm not set up to spray a solvent  base poly.  I have a paint booth were I work, but I don't want

to pack up the doors and drawer fronts drive 35 minutes just to use the booth on weekends or after shop hours.  I will however be using pre finished plywood.

I'm going to check out Target EM9000,  my two nephews are young boys that will put this kitchen thru some "stuff" for sure.

Your idea about drying racks it fantastic.  I will most definitely build a couple to help me out.

Thanks for your response Tim! 

 

[phmade]

I've a relative rookie to finishing as well, but I've been able to achieve some great results.  I think it's important to just decide on going Waterborne - it seems that everything is headed that way anyway.  If you're new to finishing, then you won't have to "unlearn" the solvent based tricks.  I stick to Target coatings because they seem to offer everything I need.  I use the EM9000 and 9300 when I need an ultra clear finish (like when I'm coating over a dyed surface).  I recently tried their conversion varnish (EM8000) and I was pretty pleased with it.  It's not quite as warm as the solvent-based stuff but it's VERY close.  I really like the General Finishes Enduro Var for a nice "warm" finish. 

While I always try to stick with the waterborne products, I can't seem to avoid shellac.  It's such a great finish because it sticks to everything and everything sticks to it.  I rarely use shellac as my topcoat but it's nice for sealing without raising the grain like the waterborne products.  I'm about to use Zinnser B-I-N on a big kitchen job that will be painted.  I'm using the BIN to seal MDF before spraying Target pigmented laquer and then EM9000.

Good luck with finishing - I think the best advice I was given was: "Just go try it!".  If you're careful, clean, and detailed, it's pretty hard to mess it up too bad.

 

[ridgenj]

Folks,

New to the hobby and need quick advice on final choice for a turbine system. I witness Eric's agony in a different thread and still couldn't figure out what he is finally using.

My wife asked me to build a few shelves in our new home and since, I purchased many Festool tools etc etc. A month later she needs to move all their shoes to make space for my tools, remember three white painted shelves in addition to what it was already build in.

For my book cases and cabinets I will use cherry and Baltic Birch HW in A1 quality and Target Coating products.

My final two choices are:

Fuji Q4 Gold with 3M PPS or
Apollo VR five stage.

Suggestions to a weekend warrior.

Cheers
Luis

 

[tiralie]

I witness Eric's agony in a different threat an still couldn't figure out  what he finally purchased.

I believe Eric got a Apollo ECO-5 Turbine System with E7000

For my library I will use cherry hardwood and b

...and b?

Tim

 

[ridgenj]

My apologies, my iPhone fired the questions before I finished.
L

 

[Brice Burrell]

Folks,

New to the hobby and need quick advice on final choice for a turbine system. I witness Eric's agony in a different threat......

The lesson to take away from Eric's thread is that there is no perfect solution or answer here.  Pretty much no stone was left unturned in that thread so don't feel like someone is holding out the perfect answer for you.  Take all you can from that thread, call a reputable dealer for some final advice and make the decision.  That's not to say the guys here aren't willing to rehash all the agonizing details, again. [tongue] [big grin]

Also, don't put to much stock on what he decided on.  That was his decision, it may or may not be what's right for you.  Good luck.

 

[ridgenj]

Thanks Brice and I concur with you!
Following my wife's logic, will have to buy both.
I think both systems are future proofed and I like Fuji better. The green cool aid is telling me, just invest and go for the more expensive one.

Lol
Luis

 

[tiralie]

... all the agonizing details, again. [tongue] [big grin]

LOL...maybe that's why Eric left the forum.

Tim

 

[tjbnwi]

I know that Eric bought a very early Apollo, used. It is one of the first two generations. He has used it, and except some equipment flaws, it appears to be working out for him.

I have the Q4, with the PPS. I like the unit a lot and it has served me well. I believe in Eric's thread I linked a video of it in use, (if it's not there let me know) also the use of a wet mil gauge. I have used the last generation Apollo, the Fugi won out due to meeting a delivery schedule (I could get the unit here sooner, without paying extra shipping). I recall the units being on par with each other. The PPS is most convenient when having to do color or finish changes often on the same project, or small volumes. If you go PPS you have to get the various size cups and liners, otherwise it is useless. I've gotten 6 uses out of a liner. Most times I use the factory cup, for large volumes, it's a pressure pot.

Eric,

Late summer early fall, I may be back in Cleveland to continue the work on the Sheridan. If you have not resolved some of the finishing questions let me know. We can go over some things hands on.

Tom

 

[mastercabman]

Eric
I would look into getting prefinished plywood for your boxes(carcasse)Then you can just deal with the face frames and end panels.
You will need to go to a cabinet/plywood supplier.
As for finish on face frame.i use conversion varnish but that stuff is more for pros and cabinet shop.If you never use it before, then don't.
I would follow advise from Tim or Tom about using a waterborne product.
Safe to use anywhere.

 

[ridgenj]

Thanks to all for the recommendations.
My son got me a Graco Proshop Fine Finish gun and ordered a Titan Capspray 115 HVLP as a gift to me.
What now???
I just ordered Target Coating products, BTW they are having a sale with free shipping and special discount on their web shop. Soon I will start with my water games training and hope to get proficient with the spray gun.

The Proshop feels nice in the hand, like the GREX green buddy or P635.

I am thinking in getting the Graco TrueCoat II Pro for painting walls with latex. Another "honey do" hobbie.

I still like to get the Fuji Q4 Gold and tending to cancel the Titan 115 order.
Any experience with the Titan?

BTW, I use prefinished and A1 cheery HW for almost everything because I am too lazy to figure it out and I know, wasting money but it is an expense of having a learning curve to master.
TG there is no ROI for weekend warriors, otherwise, we are looking at the most expensive shelves ever made.

Cheers
Luis

 

[tiralie]

I still like to get the Fuji Q4 Gold and tending to cancel the Titan 115 order.
Any experience with the Titan

Luis:
While I haven't used it I think the Titan setup would be as good or slightly better than a Q4 in that the Titan is a 5 stage vs the 4 stage fuji.
For me the real difference in brands all things being equal, guns are really the only significant differentiation between a fuji 4 stage and for e.g. a Titan 4 stage.
Tim

 

[ridgenj]

Thanks Tim, at the end I got the Fuji Q4 Gold and returned the Titan.
Cheers
Luis

 

[erock]

Thanks for all your help guys!!

I will report back when my Mother picks the species of wood she wants.  I thought we would be going to the lumber yard today, but she wasn't feeling up

to it, she's a little under the weather.  Which is fine by me, because today is a beautiful day in sunny Cleveland Ohio!! 

I need to get some sun on my bright white chicken legs!

Eric

 

[FulThrotl]

i would think the best finish is one you can apply with the equipment that you have.

enduro was mentioned, and i've had good luck with it on a dining room table, but
it comes down to you and what you are comfortable with.

test drives are a good idea. when the material is picked out, get some
and make a couple door faces, and get a quart of material, and finish them.
and see how they look, and if everyone involved is happy.

when my wife and i bought our house, the floors needed refinishing.
i knew how, and how much work it was going to take. my spouse had
grave concerns about me doing it.

so, i refinished a parquet floor in the house we were renting at the time.
i knew the owner pretty well, so i suggested she let me have a go at it,
she pays for the materials, and i get a test drive.

everyone was happy.

I'm a hobbyist woodworker with a  time under my belt as a paid carpenter. But   in no way am I  finish guy.  And lets face it, the finish is the final detail that everyone is going to notice. 

I have a HVLP and everything needed to apply a finish, water base or oil.   I understand the work involved in achieving a high end product.

So my question for the pro is :  What poly do you recommend for kitchen cabinets?

I received a phone call from my Mother who wants me to build her dream kitchen.  She wants natural wood.  Probably no staining involved, just going thru
the grits with the sanders, wiping with  denatured alcohol and or  tack cloth (not if it's a water base poly) and spraying a couple coats of poly.

In my area, I have access to Sherwin Williams, Benjamin Moore and of coarse the big box places.

Knowing my Mother, it could be Maple, Cherry or Oak lumber.     I'm taking her to my favorite lumber yard next Saturday.  NO, it's not Lowe's or HD    [tongue]

I'm sure I'm leaving info out and I'm sorry.  But any info or help you brothers can give me would be great.
This project is still in the developmental stage, so I have time to get my resources together.

The best thing about this project is, My Mother knows how big of a Festool nut I am.  She buys me systainers ever Christmas and birthday.
When she called me her first questions was  "what Festool tool do I have to buy you to build my kitchen cabinets?"

OH and I have to install new doors and windows and hardwood flooring AND tile !!    [scared]

But each job led with the question "what Festool would it take for you too......"     [big grin]

Thanks for all the info you guys can pass a long.

Eric