help: Preventing blotches with cherry and dark stain
- Thread starter nclemmons
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craig feuerzeig
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Richard Leon said:Here are the Photos. Three quick coats of garnet shellac rubbed out the first two times with granat 400. Added a little baby oil to make the third coat easier to apply.
You can see the difference with the unfinished cherry exterior.
Jesse +1. Shellac and wax every time.
Wow... what a beautiful finish! [cool]
mouppe
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Thanks Craig.
I am sure you spotted a couple of your long bowclamps in there! I don't get to use them all that often, but when it comes to something like this face frame glue-up they are invaluable. I did the whole face frame with only 8 clamps (plus the two bowclamps) and had just the right amount of squeeze-out all around.
I am sure you spotted a couple of your long bowclamps in there! I don't get to use them all that often, but when it comes to something like this face frame glue-up they are invaluable. I did the whole face frame with only 8 clamps (plus the two bowclamps) and had just the right amount of squeeze-out all around.
craig feuerzeig
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Haha... sure did Richard. Thank you. And sorry Neil, don't want to hijack your thread... Couldn't resist, forgive me. [laughing]
CharlesWilson
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Finally, I got a chance to take pictures of the finished and rubbed piece:
and with the additional work surface pulled out:
Charles
and with the additional work surface pulled out:
Charles
Ken Nagrod
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Sweet! [thumbs up]
CharlesWilson
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Those are pretty close to the actual colors, as I had more control of the lighting for these exposures. The 'room' is a glorified closet, but eventually the desk will get out into the living space.
Charles
Charles
Thanks for the replies.
So more questions. I have two coats of Charles Neil's prestain blotch control on the piece.
I have tried two wiping coats of old masters gel On similar pieces of cherry and the grain comes through and I assume the piece will darken in time as Cherry does. The stain is an antique walnut - more brown, and less red.
Alternative is spraying light coats of a water based dye. Finding and color matching the dye has yet to be done but what I have seen at Rockler and Woodcraft is not the right color. Browns are too green in the right shades.
If I spray, That would get me to a darker color and allow me to blend slight differences in color due to veneer panels on the two ends of the dresser. In watching Charles' videos, he does not wipe after the light coats but lightly does successive coats. Will I get grain raising? Should I go with the wiping gel or the sprayed dye HVLP applied and then finished with Enduro semi gloss ware based poly?
Neil
So more questions. I have two coats of Charles Neil's prestain blotch control on the piece.
I have tried two wiping coats of old masters gel On similar pieces of cherry and the grain comes through and I assume the piece will darken in time as Cherry does. The stain is an antique walnut - more brown, and less red.
Alternative is spraying light coats of a water based dye. Finding and color matching the dye has yet to be done but what I have seen at Rockler and Woodcraft is not the right color. Browns are too green in the right shades.
If I spray, That would get me to a darker color and allow me to blend slight differences in color due to veneer panels on the two ends of the dresser. In watching Charles' videos, he does not wipe after the light coats but lightly does successive coats. Will I get grain raising? Should I go with the wiping gel or the sprayed dye HVLP applied and then finished with Enduro semi gloss ware based poly?
Neil
neilc said:
I would suggest you mix the dyes you can purchase at Rockler and woodcraft. Use an eye dropper with the Transtint dyes and have a notepad to keep track of what you are doing. Work the color wheel --- opposites on the color wheel cancel each other out --- too red, add green; too green, add red. You can even add these to already mixed stains. Don't be afraid to experiment a little. This will cost a little money to get enough dyes on hand to work the color wheel.
tiralie
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neilc said:
You can lightly sand after dying but you risk removing some of the dye in some areas.This can create an interesting effect or even fix some over enthusiastic color application.
Generally I pretreat or raise the grain with distilled water before staining, I then lightly sand with an Aluminum Oxide pad (generic 3M Scotch guard burgundy) dust off and spray top coat.
Because you have pretreated with Charles Neil's prestain blotch control which I understand is a sizing, it probably already lifted the grain somewhat and has sealed it from any more grain raising. Unless the directions on the CN prestain blotch control says otherwise I would lightly sand it before you apply your stain and you should have minimal if no grain raising. In my experience if I have grain raising after staining, prepping for my second coating (light sanding with pad) removes the nibs.
Tim
YASMINSDAD
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Hi
www.floorsanding-uk.com
Please see my published article here:
http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/ppuk_discovering_article_039.shtml
1. Finish sand to P240.
2. Water wash.
3. Sand raised grain with lubricated (stearated) P240 or P400 Silicon carbide.
4. Apply water stain, water black with walnut crystals and dash of ammonia or soda crystals for a light colour, for a dark colour you will need a brown (or mix red and yellow in proportion with the black) aniline dye as making a dark walnut crystal stain will give it some pigment affect and may go patchy.
5. Sand with worn P320 sanding sponge or P400 paper (don't burn the edges)
6. Apply shellac to fix water stain.
7. When dry apply finish of choice. Either nitro cellulose (NC), oil based poly, water based poly. One coat of shellac will be okay after an hour or two for use with even NC.
TIPS:
Cherry, other fruit woods (also Maple/Beech) have very fine, tight swirly grain that changes direction so areas that appear smooth, flat and plain coloured may actually contain grain structures (cf. "straws") that lie perpendicular or at a large angle to the surface and so will absorb much more stain/pigment and will so appear darker, creating the "patchy" effect. By water washing and flattening the raised grain you will reduce some of the 'furriness' which can accentuate this.
When using a water stain you will get a very clear, transparent colour that will enhance the contrast of the figure not reduce it. If you use a shade or two lighter water stain, when dry you can add a small amount of spirit dye and/or pigment to the shellac, when applied with a squirrel or zorino colouring/polishing mop (brush) over two coats this will darken the initial stain to the required colour. The advantage of using this method is that whilst the water staining retains maximum clarity, the additional coats of shellac stain (which also fix, seal and apply body) add a semi opaque layer that helps to even up the patchy effect as the shellac colour will partly be absorbed and partly rest on the surface. If you require more evenness apply more coats of shellac or increase the amount of added spirit stain/pigment, if you require more clarity but permit more patchiness then apply/add less.
There is no magic way to eliminate patchiness as you cannot change the orientation of the wood fibres, you either use clear stain or pigment, accentuate or cover up. Using the above method you can very finely vary the amount of 'covering up' by getting most of the colour depth (shade) via clear water staining thus leaving you to apply a much smaller amount of pigmented stain (covering up)
I use this method al the time, frequently I will use three, four, five or more layers to build up an even and totally natural looking effect. The only caveat is that if you use more than two thin coats of shellac you may lose adhesion or cause bleeding/pulling issues with solvent based NC based lacquers. Shelac is actually an excellent barrier seal and very neutral, the key to goo adhesion is if you require strong mechanical strength to your finish do not sand the shellac layers, the slight grain raising will form little 'micro spikes' that will interleave with the top lacquer/finish. If you are finishing with shellac or wax then denibbing with P240/320/400 is fine.
Toby
www.floorsanding-uk.com
Please see my published article here:
http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/ppuk_discovering_article_039.shtml
1. Finish sand to P240.
2. Water wash.
3. Sand raised grain with lubricated (stearated) P240 or P400 Silicon carbide.
4. Apply water stain, water black with walnut crystals and dash of ammonia or soda crystals for a light colour, for a dark colour you will need a brown (or mix red and yellow in proportion with the black) aniline dye as making a dark walnut crystal stain will give it some pigment affect and may go patchy.
5. Sand with worn P320 sanding sponge or P400 paper (don't burn the edges)
6. Apply shellac to fix water stain.
7. When dry apply finish of choice. Either nitro cellulose (NC), oil based poly, water based poly. One coat of shellac will be okay after an hour or two for use with even NC.
TIPS:
Cherry, other fruit woods (also Maple/Beech) have very fine, tight swirly grain that changes direction so areas that appear smooth, flat and plain coloured may actually contain grain structures (cf. "straws") that lie perpendicular or at a large angle to the surface and so will absorb much more stain/pigment and will so appear darker, creating the "patchy" effect. By water washing and flattening the raised grain you will reduce some of the 'furriness' which can accentuate this.
When using a water stain you will get a very clear, transparent colour that will enhance the contrast of the figure not reduce it. If you use a shade or two lighter water stain, when dry you can add a small amount of spirit dye and/or pigment to the shellac, when applied with a squirrel or zorino colouring/polishing mop (brush) over two coats this will darken the initial stain to the required colour. The advantage of using this method is that whilst the water staining retains maximum clarity, the additional coats of shellac stain (which also fix, seal and apply body) add a semi opaque layer that helps to even up the patchy effect as the shellac colour will partly be absorbed and partly rest on the surface. If you require more evenness apply more coats of shellac or increase the amount of added spirit stain/pigment, if you require more clarity but permit more patchiness then apply/add less.
There is no magic way to eliminate patchiness as you cannot change the orientation of the wood fibres, you either use clear stain or pigment, accentuate or cover up. Using the above method you can very finely vary the amount of 'covering up' by getting most of the colour depth (shade) via clear water staining thus leaving you to apply a much smaller amount of pigmented stain (covering up)
I use this method al the time, frequently I will use three, four, five or more layers to build up an even and totally natural looking effect. The only caveat is that if you use more than two thin coats of shellac you may lose adhesion or cause bleeding/pulling issues with solvent based NC based lacquers. Shelac is actually an excellent barrier seal and very neutral, the key to goo adhesion is if you require strong mechanical strength to your finish do not sand the shellac layers, the slight grain raising will form little 'micro spikes' that will interleave with the top lacquer/finish. If you are finishing with shellac or wax then denibbing with P240/320/400 is fine.
Toby
CharlesWilson
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- Jan 22, 2007
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- 458
Great post Toby. You certainly have all of the bases covered here.
Charles
Charles
I am in the process of building an Arts and Crafts style desk based on an article in FWW in 2003 (and for which I bought the CAD plans from Taunton). I'm building out of cherry. I have intermediate woodworking skills and I'm a relative newby at finishing. I have sanded all the pieces to 180 grit Garnet paper before assembly. I've ordered some of the CN Blotch Control. I'm targeting a finish like the Stickley Central Valley Lacquer (#713 I believe) which looks very much like the garnet shellac color earlier in this thread, so I've ordered some to try. I've also ordered some GF Enduro Var as a finish coat for added protection (given that this will be a working desk).
May I ask for some direction or confirmation that I'm on the right track here? I'm really excited about this project, it's progressing nicely. I'm using Domino joinery instead of the traditional M&T joinery in the original article. I have had my Domino for years (it's an original pin style version) and every time I use it I'm amazed at the efficiency and accuracy of doing joinery this way. But I've developed a real fear of the finishing process!
Brian
May I ask for some direction or confirmation that I'm on the right track here? I'm really excited about this project, it's progressing nicely. I'm using Domino joinery instead of the traditional M&T joinery in the original article. I have had my Domino for years (it's an original pin style version) and every time I use it I'm amazed at the efficiency and accuracy of doing joinery this way. But I've developed a real fear of the finishing process!
Brian
