Help with drill decision

[Walk On Wood]

Im looking for someone to clarify the differences between the various drills.

It seems too me like there are 3 basic drills:

1) the cxs- it's small and light

2) c series

3) t series, one of which is the hybrid impact

Beyond the difference in shape, are there other differences between the c and t series? What are each of them best at?

Other than the battery getting bigger, are there difference between the 10.8, 14.4, and 18 volt? Does the drill have more power or battery last longer as the battery gets bigger? Any other differences?

I currently use Milwaukee 12v, i have the impact and the drill/driver. I also have a corded Milwaukee for stuff the little guys can't handle.

I primarily install/finish hardwood floors, so i frequently drill 3/4"-1" holes to clear conduit/pipes in the floor. I also drive a lot of screws from 1 1/4"-4" long.  At home they get used for everything from installing cabinets to hanging drywall.  At my shop they get called on for hole sawing and more driving.

I really like the Ti15 for the impact, but some videos ive watched imply it isn't great at drilling larger holes.  It also comes w a systainer with room for another drill which implies to me that it isn't a "one drill does it all". 

Anyone have any experience they'd like to share with me to help me decide what to get?  Any info is welcome!

 

[Brice Burrell]

The CXS is a capable little drill, but, probably not the best choice it you're looking for one drill to do it all.  It will cover most common day to day driving tasks.  Drilling holes is where it falls short when compared to full sizes drills.  3/4"-1" holes it can handle but not more beyond that. 

That brings us to the full sized C and T series drills.  For the most part the C and T drills are identical to each other in their respective voltage class, ie: same torque, rpms and so on.  There are a few important things to note where they differ.  The 12 volt drills have a different ah batteries from each other.  The C12 comes with 1.5 ah batteries and the T15 comes with 3.0 ah batteries.  The second noteworthy thing is how the drills are intended to be held.  The T drills are like any other drill you've used.  However, the C style drills (including the CXS) are intended to be held like a corded drill, high on the grip with the index finger straight on the body of the drill and the middle and ring fingers operating the trigger (see picture below).

[attachthumb=#]

The idea behind the C drill's grip is to get maximum force applied by having your hand/arm more in-line with bit/driver.  Some people prefer the grip style of the C and some just can't get used to it.  Of course, you can hold the C drills any way you'd like if the intended grip doesn't work out for you.  I'd strongly recommend you try a C style drill out in person if possible to see how it feels in your hands.

The different voltages have one other note, the C series line has no impact or 18v drill.  Choosing a voltage is a little tougher for Festool drills because the size and weight between the models are so close to one another.  I think a C or T12 would work very well for most of your needs.  That said, when you get to the jobs that are a bit tougher a 15v drill might be better.  Considering the weight and size difference of the 15v drills are almost negligible compared to the 12v drills.  The same could be said between the 15v and 18v.  As I already said it's important to get these drills in your hands to try to see how the grip, size and weight of each feels to you.

I have the Ti15 impact.  It's a good impact as long as expectations are realistic for a 15v impact.  It's just not as big and bad as other quality brand 18v impacts out there.  For most day to day driving tasks the Ti15 is a very good tool.  I will say you'll likely be disappointed if you intend it to be your only tool for drilling. 

The good news Festool offers a 30 day no questions asked return policy.  It's no gimmick, try one and if it's not the right tool for you, return it. 

         

 

[Walk On Wood]

Awesome reply Brice, thanks!!  I tried out the cxs at my dealer the other day and was amazed by the (slow) power it had, but i don't think it will do all i want.. Im leaning toward the T18 or Ti15 (or maybe both!). Thanks again for clarifying the c/t differences.

 

[Runhard]

It looks like we maybe getting the new batteries and chargers all in a sys2 with new drill purchases. I copied the below info from the Sales & Dealer Area thread:


Re: NEW PRODUCTS DEC.1st!!
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2013, 01:44 PM »
Quote
MORE NEW ITEMS!?  UPDATED Cordless Drill Sets!

Just announced, all Drills listed below are now equipped with two (2) 4.2 Ah batteries, TCL 3 Charger and a larger Systainer SYS-2 with the exception of the TI 15 Basic.  The TI 15 Cordless Impact now features a Systainer SYS-3, plus additional storage compartments.

Pricing remains the same for the replacement models, which are available for immediate purchase.

564521   Cordless Drill T 15+3 Li 4.2 - $460.00
564522   Cordless Drill T 15+3 Li 4.2 Set - $585.00
564523   Cordless Drill T 18+3 Li 4.2 - $510.00
564524   Cordless Drill T 18+3 Li 4.2 Set - $635.00
564526   Cordless Impact TI 15 Li4.2 Basic - $350.00
564525   Cordless Impact TI 15 Li4.2 Set - $525.00

Also!

Get longer run-times with 40% more capacity with new 4.2 Ah Lithium Ion Batteries. Available in both 14.4 Volt and 18.0 Volt platforms for use with C 15, T 15, TI 15, & T 18 Drill/Drivers.  Coming soon!

499848   Battery 15V 4.2Ah Li-Ion - $94.00
499849   Battery 18V 4.2Ah Li-Ion - $110.00

 

[Sparktrician]

If you're working with (inside) cabinets, the CXS really shines, especially in tight spaces where it needs to be held horizontally, as in mounting drawer glides.  The light weight makes a huge difference, as does the right-angle head.  For heavier usage, the "C" series is wonderful, and you have the option of multiple heads for getting into awkward spaces, not to mention the depth stop chuck.  If I'm drilling large-diameter holes, though, I have to revert to the much older Milwaukee corded drills.  Large-diameter holes put quite a strain on the Festool drills and they seem to want to check out in short order.  Brice's comment regarding the TI 15 is right on target.  It's great as an impact driver, but sucks for drilling for extended periods or for large holes. 

 

[mrboult]

Just wanted to note to anyone reading this, that I have found the C12 to have practically no noticeable power advantages over the CXS in actual use.

 

[Walk On Wood]

Thanks Runhard, sparky, and mrboult... Im narrowing in on my decision.  Any other feedback from anyone?

 

[Jonhilgen]

Just wanted to note to anyone reading this, that I have found the C12 to have practically no noticeable power advantages over the CXS in actual use.

Seriously?!  I install cabinets everyday, and there's no way I could drill plumbing holes in 3/4" backs into sink base cabinets with a csx.  My c12 does it with ease with a hole saw and actually torques my wrist sometimes if I'm not ready for it.

Huge difference between the two. 

Jon

 

[Sparktrician]

Just wanted to note to anyone reading this, that I have found the C12 to have practically no noticeable power advantages over the CXS in actual use.

Seriously?!  I install cabinets everyday, and there's no way I could drill plumbing holes in 3/4" backs into sink base cabinets with a csx.  My c12 does it with ease with a hole saw and actually torques my wrist sometimes if I'm not ready for it.

Huge difference between the two. 

Jon

I concur with Jon.  My C12 has cranked my wrist more than once.  I will admit that it does lose its zap when it comes to using a large hole saw (let's say 2" and larger). 

 

[mrboult]

Just wanted to note to anyone reading this, that I have found the C12 to have practically no noticeable power advantages over the CXS in actual use.

Seriously?!  I install cabinets everyday, and there's no way I could drill plumbing holes in 3/4" backs into sink base cabinets with a csx.  My c12 does it with ease with a hole saw and actually torques my wrist sometimes if I'm not ready for it.

Huge difference between the two. 

Jon

Ok. I hear what you are saying. . .

I spent a day using a friends C12 in tandem with my cxs, and I did not use any hole saws. I did use a 25mm spade bit. I realise that the C12 does have more power than the CXS but it is not enough! 
I can accept the low-ish power of the cxs because it is so small and comfortable. The C12 however is much bigger and not quite the same "extension of your hand" that the cxs can be. Considering this I find it unacceptably weak in power and would much rather the C15.

I am really not trying to tell anyone they are wrong. Just giving my opinion. Everyone has slightly different expectations from their tools. . .

 

[green fever]

Cxs  great drill but unlike its bigger brothers not brushless , hey horses for courses  .
I have two cxs for kitchen installing and cabinet work,  shame you can't fit a drywall depstop on them as they are so light for working overhead, that said I have a drywall gun for that .

 

[amt]

Speaking of torque, I was comparing torque specs on Festool and other drills, and it seems like a lot of non-festool drills have much higher torque specs.  For example, the Rigid 18v drill has 535 in/lbs, and the Milwaukee M18 Fuel has 725 inch/lbs, and the Bosch 18v has 600 inch/lbs.  The T18 drill lists 354 & 238 inch/lbs depending on the type of material (what???).  Does Festool intentionally limit the torque on these drills, perhaps for better reliability?

 

[greg mann]

Speaking of torque, I was comparing torque specs on Festool and other drills, and it seems like a lot of non-festool drills have much higher torque specs.  For example, the Rigid 18v drill has 535 in/lbs, and the Milwaukee M18 Fuel has 725 inch/lbs, and the Bosch 18v has 600 inch/lbs.   The T18 drill lists 354 & 238 inch/lbs depending on the type of material (what???).   Does Festool intentionally limit the torque on these drills, perhaps for better reliability?

Those torque specs are a bit like my "5HP" Rigid Vac. Take them with a grain of salt.

 

[AlexThePalex]

Speaking of torque, I was comparing torque specs on Festool and other drills, and it seems like a lot of non-festool drills have much higher torque specs.  For example, the Rigid 18v drill has 535 in/lbs, and the Milwaukee M18 Fuel has 725 inch/lbs, and the Bosch 18v has 600 inch/lbs.   The T18 drill lists 354 & 238 inch/lbs depending on the type of material (what???).   Does Festool intentionally limit the torque on these drills, perhaps for better reliability?

You should take them with a bit of salt. This question came up before and I believe the official answer was that companies often use their own way to determine and define max torque, resulting in a torque rating that isn't universally comparable. Festool decided to keep their ratings on the low side as to not skew people's expectations and maybe let them be happily surprised when they actually use the drills.

My personal experience is that the Festool T and C drills aren't the strongest ones around, but I believe Festool doesn't try to be either. They prefer to aim for reliable and precise drills.

Finally I'd like to add that when you look at what other companies offer, they usually make 2 types of drills per voltage group, a smaller drill for general tasks like woodworking and jobs in and around the house, and a stronger drill for tougher jobs like on building sites. I think the T and C drills fall in the first category, and the new PDC drills in the second.

See for instance 2 different Bosch 14v drills, the second one is a lot stronger than the first:

[attachimg=1]  [attachimg=2]

And the Festools:

[attachimg=3]  [attachimg=4]

 

[amt]

So, basically we have no reliable way of comparing torque unless we buy 2 drills and compare them.  And after some thought I guess torque is not a good indication of power anyway (it seems that many spec torque at 0 RPM).  We need something like horsepower or some other power metric to truly compare the drills.

Does anyone have anecdotal evidence of how a T18 compares to another 18v cordless w.r.t. drilling holes?

 

[mrboult]

shame you can't fit a drywall depstop on them as they are so light for working overhead, that said I have a drywall gun for that .

I reckon this depth stop chuck should fit the CXS. It has come over from Protool with the the PD 20/4  &  PDC 18/4  Drills . . . . I don't see any reason why it won't fit the CXS too . .

http://www.powertool-supplies.co.uk/festool-depth-stop-dc-uni-ff.html

 

[green fever]

shame you can't fit a drywall depstop on them as they are so light for working overhead, that said I have a drywall gun for that .

I reckon this depth stop chuck should fit the CXS. It has come over from Protool with the the PD 20/4  &  PDC 18/4  Drills . . . . I don't see any reason why it won't fit the CXS too . .

http://www.powertool-supplies.co.uk/festool-depth-stop-dc-uni-ff.html

well I am going to a show next week and I shall take a cxs with me and try the chuck for suitability I shall report back on my findings , watch this space.

 

[TelcoRandy]

Speaking of torque, I was comparing torque specs on Festool and other drills, and it seems like a lot of non-festool drills have much higher torque specs.  For example, the Rigid 18v drill has 535 in/lbs, and the Milwaukee M18 Fuel has 725 inch/lbs, and the Bosch 18v has 600 inch/lbs.   The T18 drill lists 354 & 238 inch/lbs depending on the type of material (what???).   Does Festool intentionally limit the torque on these drills, perhaps for better reliability?

As stated before, some of these manufacturers may stretch their figures. Take a look at this video:


The drill was rated at a 94NM stall torque and gave out at 40NM.... If I'm not mistaken, stall torque in this case is the same as soft torque. Correct me if I'm wrong but hard torque is the maximum torque a drill will put out when it is ramped up to full RPM and immediately comes to a dead stop (like the type of torque that will snap your wrist while screwing a nut on a bolt) and soft torque (like in the video) is the torque you feel as the motor winds down to a slow stop like when you're driving a lag bolt into wood.

The PDC is rated at 40NM for soft torque and 60NM for hard torque, Metabo's LXT drills are 44NM for soft torque and 100NM for hard. If I'm not mistaken Metabo makes the world's most powerful cordless drill and the PDCs soft torque comes very close to it (and correct me if I'm wrong but soft torque is probably the most important isn't it?).

 

[fdengel]

Festool's depth stop chuck will not fit on the CXS.

Skeptical that the previously-ProTool one would?

 

[AlexThePalex]

Festool's depth stop chuck will not fit on the CXS.

Skeptical that the previously-ProTool one would?

The new chuck doesn't have the fastfix collar anymore, but fits directly on the centrotec shaft so it will fit any drill with such a shaft, the CXS included.