Home made CMS thread?

butzla

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Feb 5, 2008
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What happened to the guy and his thread who made and sold a gizmo that turns your MFT into a CMS?  I can't think of his name but I noticed it was gone from the "Amazing Members inventions".  As I recall, his thread was the reason Matthew started that forum category in the first place and now it's gone.  Just wondering, I must have missed something.
 
That thread (about the TSK1 as it was called) was removed because it promotes the use of the tools in a way that may be unsafe.  One of the rules of the forum was designed to help protect our members from attempting to use our products in an unsafe manner.  You can review the rules here.

We have a responsibility and a desire to do our best to ensure that the content on the forum does not promote the use of our products in a way that could result in personal injury to our customers.  We go to great lengths to have our tools tested using independent laboratories (such as UL) to make sure the appropriate safety mechanisms are in place.  This product was not, to my knowledge, tested in any way to ensure safe operation by its users.  Hopefully members can understand that their safety is a concern even when it comes to the content posted here on the forum.

I believe Tom Bellemare of Tool Home was selling these products.  It may be worth contacting him if you have questions about the products.

Another example of a thread that was removed was the one talking about using various methods to "jump start" dead batteries.  This could be hazardous and result in personal injury so it was also removed.

Thanks.
 
Shane, that makes sense.  I thought it looked a bit unsafe on the video.  I never heard anyone who bought it give it any kind of review and thought the reason it was removed was because it didn't operate as advertised.
 
Shane Holland said:
That thread (about the TSK1 as it was called) was removed because it promotes the use of the tools in a way that may be unsafe.

Shane,

I read that thread at the time, and I don't believe it in any way 'promoted the use of tools in a way that may be unsafe'. The product seemed very well designed, and had more than adequate guarding around the blade. It seemed to me no less safe than the CMS module it was designed as an alternative to (with the exception of the lack of a NVR switch IIRC).

Does this mean that designs, photos and plans for home-made jigs will be removed in future, just in case they are potentially unsafe?

If you are genuinely concerned with removing threads that 'promote the unsafe use of tools', then I would argue that the "Kapex Warning"
thread, in which several users advocate placing their hands in the 'no-hands' zone, should be of more concern to you. Not that I think that thread does deserve removal, I'm just using it to illustrate a point.

Likewise, my own thread about using my OF1400 inverted could arguably qualify under that rule, but that hasn't been deleted either.

A more cynical person than myself could argue it was removed purely because it was a commercial accessory from a third party manufacturer. Which to be fair wouldn't be unusual - after all, Festool is a business like any other, and like any other business would be foolish to openly promote a product which competes with their own (which this one doesn't really do, since you don't have any plans to market the TS55 CMS module in the US anyway).

I just think we deserve to be credited with a bit more intelligence.
 
jonny round boy said:
I just think we deserve to be credited with a bit more intelligence.

Jonny, welcome to one of the harsh realities where the European and the American culture greatly differ from each other.

If here in Europe somebody chops his finger off we simply say "Don't be stupid". In America, this means there's a multi-million dollar lawsuit coming. Somehow the culture over there states that not the user is stupid but the company that sold him the stuff. Remember the great McDonalds Hot Coffee Incident.

This would be especially true when a the plaintiff can revert to an article and/or product featured in an internet forum administered by the company Festool itself.

Unfortunately we as the users of this forum will now start to see some of the negative effects of the company taking this forum over. This is no longer a free-for-all user driven forum but a forum that has to comply to the company's agenda.

Regarding the TSCK1 apparatus made by Steve Jones, I am must say I am surprised at how little feedback and little talk there was about this after the first items reached the consumers. It's like everybody suddenly fell dead silent after it's initial release had stirred up so much enthousiasm.


But I must say I am even more amazed about how easily and stealthily this much discussed thread was removed behind our backs.


 
Alex said:
Regarding the TSCK1 apparatus made by Steve Jones, I am must say I am surprised at how little feedback and little talk there was about this after the first items reached the consumers. It's like everybody suddenly fell dead silent after it's initial release had stirred up so much enthousiasm.

Alex,

There aren't any reviews, as obviously everyone who bought one has cut their fingers off & can't type anymore...
 
Stoolman said:
I thought it looked a bit unsafe on the video.

IIRC it was made clear in the posting that the videos were of the pre-production prototype, without any guarding in place, and NOT the version that shipped.
 
Well, I think we all knew the day was coming that Festool would have to act in their own best interests now that they own the forum. Regardless of what anyone believes Festool's interests are here I suggest we discuss it in a civilized manner.

I did notice Steve's thread was no longer in the members inventions section. I'm not sure how I feel about it being removed. On one hand I do feel Festool has the right to manage the forum as they see fit. On the other I'm not so sure I like how it was handled. Perhaps in the future threads can be locked with an administrative note saying the thread or offending posts will be removed shortly. This would give the members an idea of what happened and why. Of course, it was nice that these discussions were able to run their course before they were removed.

 
Members are welcome to draw their own conclusions however from my perspective this is responsible stewardship of the forum.

I have added warnings in several posts, including the forum rules post, regarding the unsafe operation of tools.  I also messaged Peter and Forrest to ask that they bring any posts that seemed to be of this nature to my attention so they can be addressed.  We (Festool USA) do not have the manpower to police every post that's made on the forum.  I would ask that any member who thinks a post promotes the use of a power tool in an unsafe manner click on the "Report to Moderator" link in the lower right corner of the post.  None of us want to get hurt doing what we enjoy.

This has absolutely nothing to do with any perception that it's a competing product.  There are posts about plenty of competing products on the forum from other power tool manufacturers and most recently a thread about competing saw blades.  Our products stand on their own merit and it's the choice of the consumer to make decisions based on their own criteria, product knowledge, budget and needs.

I would argue that if you go find the YouTube videos, if they are even still posted, that the way Steve used the tools was dangerous and members even commented to that affect.  I remember watching the first couple of videos and thinking to myself how close his fingers were to the blades and the lack of safety glasses, etc. This is absolutely nothing personal toward Steve or his products, this is about safety.  Steve called his company Adaptabletool which I suspect you can find with a simple web search.  You can visit his website if you have questions or want information about his products.

Regarding the Kapex thread, I wouldn't be telling the truth if I said that I read it in its entirety.  But I don't remember anyone saying that they recommend using it in an unsafe way or posting photos or video of such use.  To me, there's an obvious difference between someone demonstrating the unsafe use of a tool versus someone talking about their choice to ignore warnings in a way they admit is unsafe.  Regarding your thread about using the OF 1400, I would agree that it demonstrates a use of the tool that's unsafe.  For that reason, I will remove it to lessen the possibility that someone else tries to use the same technique and ends up injured.  About home-made jigs, I think the answer is obvious.  If it doesn't promote the use of a tool in a way that's unsafe, then there are no issues.  I don't want to stifle the creativity of the members but I think we all share a responsibility to use tools safely and to encourage others to do the same.  In the most extreme cases, people lose the lives over using power tools in a way that is foolish.

Personally, my employment status completely aside, I would hate to think that I didn't act in the best interests of others to prevent a possible accident.

I welcome your feedback and comments, but please respond in a respectful manner.
 
I have to agree with Brice. It's Festool's  site now.  We can play, just remember who owns the ball.
 
fortrout said:
I have to agree with Brice. It's Festool's  site now.  We can play, just remember who owns the ball.

I always bring my own ball, I hate sharing!! [cool]
 
Shane Holland said:
Personally, my employment status completely aside, I would hate to think that I didn't act in the best interests of others to prevent a possible accident.

Alright Shane, since you are talking personally here, I would like to ask you this: what makes you a better judge of safety than all those people who bought the TSCK1 from Steve Jones? I mean, they are all adults, right? Don't you think they have the experience and mental capacity to decide for themselves whether using that device would be dangerous or not? First of all, they are used to working with dangerous machines so the matter is not exactly new to them. Second, many people commented on the safety of the device in the thread and all people participating in the thread would have read about all possible safety complications that came with it. Because we can be sure that that aspect was discussed exhaustively.

Now, I don't believe for a second that, as Jonny suggested above the thread was pulled because it was a competing product. I prefer to think what I already stated above, that it was for legal reasons. After all, I could understand the idea that Festool as a company doesn't want to be liable for a lawsuit that could cost the company a lot of money, simply for the sake of a couple of internet dwellers wanting to read a certain thread. At least that makes sense. But when you take it to a personal level, well, then I think you are trying to think for others in a sort of 'nanny way' and I seriously doubt most people here want or need that.

If any, that TSCK1 thread could and perhaps should be used as an example of promoting safety rather than the opposite. After all, Steve came with a prototype that clearly wasn't up to safety standards yet, but because of all the comments, commotion, feedback and attention evolved into a safe product. Of course I can't read it back now to be sure, but at one point I recall that Steve mentioned getting UL approval.

And this is the point where I want to mention one of the strengths of a forum like this. In the every day's use of techniques and tools, people don't stop where the book stops. Of course a manufacturer has to make a certain description telling what the tool must be used for, but when people actually work with the tools, they sometimes go further than the specifications the manufacturer stipulates. That doesn't have to be a negative thing. I think it is the opposite. Many times this will save people time and money. Yes, sometimes at the cost of (perceived) safety, but I bet in 99% of the cases it is beneficial. And thanks to forums like this people can share such techniques with each other.

A good example for my point is the use of the router Jonny Round boy posted a thread about to which he referred above. Was that dangerous according to the book? Yes of course, a BIG yes. But was it dangerous in practice? I sincerely doubt it! Why? Because the funny thing is about people, accidents generally don't happen when they know they are doing dangerous stuff, accidents happen when they are in their every day (so called safe) situation, and loose concentration for a moment. Would Jonny have cut into his hand when balancing that piece of wood? Not so likely. Because he was 100% aware of the consequences a mistake might bring at that moment. And therefor put his concentration into it 100% and took measures.

And when do the real accidents happen? When you're sawing away at your (safe) table saw for hours after each other already, and the tiredness and boredom set in and you just look away for a split second at a bird flying by the window, and chop chop, there goes your finger.

That's how it really works with safety and danger.

Why do most accidents happen at home? Not because it is the most dangerous place to be but because it is the place where you're most off guard.

In the mean time, Jonny wouldn't have been able to complete the job satisfactory, because buying a router table just for this one piece isn't an option of course. And that's what forums like this add, it is ways to learn how to use your tools to their full extent, even if you have to bend the rules a bit sometimes. In most cases, they will only enhance creativity and productivity, and only in a very few cases will they be dangerous.

Now for end users, the benefits of bending the rules sometimes greatly outweigh the costs, and is therefor done extensively in the field. On the other hand, for a tool company administering a forum the costs might not outweigh the benefits. After all, one frivolous lawsuit might nullify the sales of A LOT of power tools.
 
 
Shane Holland said:
That thread (about the TSK1 as it was called) was removed because it promotes the use of the tools in a way that may be unsafe.  One of the rules of the forum was designed to help protect our members from attempting to use our products in an unsafe manner.  You can review the rules here.

I believe Tom Bellemare of Tool Home was selling these products at one time but I don't currently see them on his website.  It may be worth contacting him if you have questions about the products.

It's appears that it is still carried by Tom, with a blade guard, TSK1

On a side note, I'll bet Matthew's blood pressure has dropped, not having to deal with these "issues."

 
fortrout said:
I have to agree with Brice. It's Festool's  site now.  We can play, just remember who owns the ball.

Ok, I would like to make a comment about this, from experience.

I have been in situations before where forums came under new management.

I am sorry to say, but in every case, that was a 100% score of BAD BAD BAD.

Just my experience.

Sorry for that.

Just think about how this forum got big in the first place. I was all through efforts of a talented and dedicated webmaster, Matthew Schenker, who put his soul into it. Building something up from the start is something completely different than just laying down some money and taking over. Now I don't know under what conditions this website changed management, but with those other websites I frequented, the original owners were bought out by some company.

Very soon it became clear those companies didn't have the best interests of the users in mind, but only their own. And not surprisingly, this very quickly meant the end of the website as a whole. The high value of the original content went down. People noticed and stopped frequenting the site. This became a downward spiral, resulting in less and less content, until the website was a waste of space.

I tell you, when you like a forum community and you come there often, and it then suddenly vanishes, it can rip your heart out. Would be a shame to see the same happen here.

Of course Festool USA can do with this site what they want. It's their site now. But I would advice any administrator to look at what made a forum great in the first place. Don't take things for granted. Realise you have to run the extra mile to keep it that way. I saw from experience that new management often wants to change a lot of things, from the forum lay-out to the rules. I saw from experience they completely failed in 100% of the cases. I'm not saying that it would happen here, but I'm surely saying that if care is not taken, it could.  If the users aren't happy, the company won't be either.  
 
Alex.
 
After reading the posts here, I took more than just a few moments to go thru the entire thread referenced.  I am offering my thoughts here respectfully in two different capacities:

1.  Moderator - Safety issues and liability were mentioned over 30 times in that thread.  There was a reference to awaiting approval on the design of the new safety issues.  UL was never mentioned in the thread in regards to those safety items.  The thread was on the forum in public areas for a little over 6 months.  It's removal came after the excitement had worn off (as evidenced by the lack of posting in that thread), and came after October 21, 2009 (the date of the last post).

2.  Contractor - I have used power tools since 1980 and am comfortable with my sixth sense.  Have I been hurt when my sixth sense was asleep?  Yes.  Am I lucky to have survived a fall from 28 feet onto my head on a wooden deck and walked away after packing up my tools to drive myself home?  Absolutely.  Would I recommend that to anyone - NO.

I have a Hitachi SCM that has suffered abuse at my hands.  I am holding out to buy a Kapex.  The blade guard stopped working right.  I took it off.  The safety malfunctioned.  It has been rigged to be disabled.  OK, I know what I am working with.  I couldn't allow anyone else to use that saw and sleep at night.  I couldn't allow another contractor to borrow that saw.  I wouldn't feel right posting one of my stupid videos showing that in operation because by doing so I would be condoning safety abandonment and I would feel bad as a human if I found out later that someone watched that video and got hurt.  We don't need to go into the other scenarios and the troubles I could start for myself.  We all know people who break the rules and never get caught.  Safety is everyday.  The difference between safe and unsafe is a millisecond.

Moderator Again:  We have 7000+ members but we have many more visitors.  The viewers here are not pre-screened based on ability or experience - it is open to anyone.  A higher standard is required even if it offends some.

Thanks for listening.

Peter

 
I think it could probably have been handled better then deleting or hiding the entire thread, but I don't blame Festool wanting the original video removed from their forum.  I would rather have seen the "offensive" content removed, and a note put in its place explaining the reason for the deletion.  

I have the TSK1, and don't consider it to be an unsafe product in its production form.  

In the past, when these types of issues arise, I always give deference to the moderators and managers of the forum.  There is no way to keep all of us happy.  
 
mwhafner said:
I would rather have seen the "offensive" content removed, and a note put in its place explaining the reason for the deletion.  

............

In the past, when these types of issues arise, I always give deference to the moderators and managers of the forum.  There is no way to keep all of us happy.  

Thank you for your understanding.  There is nothing perfect about any removal of information, selective or otherwise.  I would much rather see spammers zapped.  [big grin]

Peter
 
Peter,

Since festool is so big on safety and as you, someone who now represents festool, just described a very dangerous and unsafe situation that gives me the impression that its okay to operate a saw without the blade guard.   If its broke, dont fix it and pray that you dont get hurt.  I think that if i ever read anything on this forum that seemed to be unsafe, it would be your comments.  With all that said i understand your point. But my point is that your comments should be removed for the same reason the referenced thread was removed.  I dont agree with removing that thread and threads like that were some of the reasons why i enjoyed this forum so much.  

Whats the difference between not posting a video but describing what you did to your saw on a forum and then making a statement that safety is everyday?
 
Dave, while I can't speak for Festool, Peter or Forrest, I believe the moderators shouldn't be considered representatives of Festool.
 
The moderators follow a set of guidelines and rules to enforce that were set by festool because those guidelines and rules represent an image of who they are, in my opinion. 
 
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