Home made CMS thread?

[EcoFurniture]

I have no problems with the rules posted on this forum. They all make sense.

Thanks for keeping this forum the way it is.

Andreas

 

[tbellemare]

I think there was a post in an earlier discussion about adapTableTool, where Steve and I agreed that it might not be appropriate for Festool, as new owners, to continue the thread. As I recall, we offered to have it eliminated with no hard feelings.

Tom

 

[Bob Marino]

Peter,

Since festool is so big on safety and as you, someone who now represents festool, just described a very dangerous and unsafe situation that gives me the impression that its okay to operate a saw without the blade guard.   If its broke, dont fix it and pray that you dont get hurt.  I think that if i ever read anything on this forum that seemed to be unsafe, it would be your comments.  With all that said i understand your point. But my point is that your comments should be removed for the same reason the referenced thread was removed.  I dont agree with removing that thread and threads like that were some of the reasons why i enjoyed this forum so much.  

Whats the difference between not posting a video but describing what you did to your saw on a forum and then making a statement that safety is everyday?

I couldn't disagree more Dave.

I think Peter went out of his way to say "THIS IS DANGEROUS AND FOR MY HANDS ONLY".

I have a Hitachi SCM that has suffered abuse at my hands.  I am holding out to buy a Kapex.  The blade guard stopped working right.  I took it off.  The safety malfunctioned.  It has been rigged to be disabled.  OK, I know what I am working with. I couldn't allow anyone else to use that saw and sleep at night.  I couldn't allow another contractor to borrow that saw.  I wouldn't feel right posting one of my stupid videos showing that in operation because by doing so I would be condoning safety abandonment and I would feel bad as a human if I found out later that someone watched that video and got hurt.    We don't need to go into the other scenarios and the troubles I could start for myself.  We all know people who break the rules and never get caught.  Safety is everyday.  The difference between safe and unsafe is a millisecond.  Bob

 

[score0matic]

Unfortunately we as the users of this forum will now start to see some of the negative effects of the company taking this forum over. This is no longer a but a forum that has to comply to the company's agenda.

Alex,

you came in November of last year,  let me just say that the fog was not a "free-for-all user driven forum"  and that many welcomed the FestoolUSA taking over this forum.  And that many more posts and members were deleted before than sense.

When Steve came out with his saw I thot it was really cool I even made one.  but to make a special category for it was silly.

Just rambling thots of a newly employed ex contractor

Craig

 

[Jesus Aleman]

I won't comment on the reasons for the removal, but I will draw a parallel from my day job.  I work in water treatment.  For many years we wanted to use a cleaning chemical called citric acid.  It is widely used in the food and pharmaceutical industry.  Citric acid is essentially concentrated orange juice.  NSF60 certification is required for chemicals to be used in water treatment.  Without it, it was illegal to use citric acid in drinking water treatment despite the same product being safe to use in many foods.   So how does this relate to Steve's saw?  He crossed a threshold, when he went from " hey guys look at my cool setup' to a commercial product.  In our litigious societies, his products need to be UL and CSA certified (US and Canada) to be considered safe.   The fact that Steve's product is similar to one that festool make, or that it has many of the safety features of other commercial products is irrelevant.  Testing and approvals are still required.

For the record, I been trying to buy Steve's product for over 2 months, but apparently they have had some challenges in their manufacturing facilities and they may need more time to crank up more product.

Cheers.

 

[peter halle]

At the risk of stepping in it,

I do not represent Festool.  I am a volunteer here to help with the moderation of this community, which a separate entity able to bought, sold, traded, dissolved, etc. without affecting Festool USA or Festool at large.  I give my personal family time, some of my billable time, and some of my sleep to try and make this a better place - without compensation.  I give up some of my personal liberties in posting because of perceptions.  I volunteered and somehow got drafted elected.

I am also a member, by choosing, who participates here.  There will be times that when I post that I feel that there is a difference in my posting that should be announced, and that is what I attempted to do.  If I didn't do that effectively, please send me a PM and let me know your suggestions.  I offered my examples of stupid things as an example of what not to do and after re reading my post I believe that the majority of readers will see it that way.  What someone may feel is safe can become unsafe in the blink of an eye.  In no way in my post did I prescribe that my methods were the normal methods that should be followed.  Rather, I tried to point out that my ways were dangerous and shouldn't be followed.  I posted that I wouldn't allow anyone else to use that saw and that think that I illustrated that these examples of stupidity shouldn't be followed.

If there were / are any misunderstandings about my previous post, I apologize, but hope that this helps to put it into perspective.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

Do some of you guys take your moms with you to work so they can baby sit you and hold your hand to make sure you don't get hurt?

It's carpentry/woodworking, some one will do something you shouldn't and you may or may not get hurt.
It's kind of like going fishing everyday, some days you catch fish other days you don't.

 

[tDot]

I'm not a huge fan of censorship.  I realize that sometimes it is necessary, but one of the things that I liked about this forum was the free flow of information, with members being able to freely state their opinions, whether they were good or not so good.  We were free to learn what we could from the given information, and state our opinions without being chastised or harassed for having an opinion. 

I'm a contractor and I regularly work in dangerous situations, whether it is using a table saw with out a guard or walking 40 feet up on a roof ( w/ no ppe) , I choose to put myself in those situations, knowing the consequences.  Non-professionals, and even some professionals, could learn something from these "undesirable posts" instead of deleting them, maybe it would make more sense to put a popup window prior to opening such posts, or having a caveat between each post... something to show the reader why such a situation is dangerous.  People reading the posts could actually learn something from the post, instead of taking a "see no evil" approach, and simply deleting posts.  If we can learn from each others mistakes, then we would all benefit.

Just out of curiosity, wasn't there a post about some AdapTable Tool cross bracing for underneath the table of the MFT/3?  Is this dangerous?  I'd like to know as I had planned on putting some bracing lengthwise in my table, as my guys seem to constantly cut a little too deep while using the cross cutting rail, and I'd like to brace the table instead of replacing the top.

 

[Dan Clark]

I see a lot of fear in this thread.  Fear?  Yes, fear.  Men (most of the folks here) express fear as anger; it's just the way we are built.  Rather than express our fears, it comes out as anger.  That's what I see in this thread.

So what are "you" afraid of?  IMO, there are two groups of "you's" expressing their fears...

The first group is the members.  You, the members, have built a really great forum.  The Admins and Mods support you, but without you, FOG would be nothing.  You have built the single best example anywhere of a brand-driven forum!  And you're afraid of losing that! 

You are afraid of becoming just another brand forum which is tightly controlled by a company.  You're afraid of losing the camaraderie and information sharing that goes on here constantly.

Those are rational fears.

The second group is Festool - Christian, his team, and the Festool dealers.  In the last five years, Festool has grown from a boutique US vendor of "interesting" tools to a major force that is changing the way people work.  They took a risk by taking ownership of FOG and moving it back to prominence.  And they are afraid of losing that.

They are also afraid of the devastating consequences of negative publicity.  And they are afraid of the liability they might incur if someone follows the "advice" in a post and hurts them self.

Those are rational fears.

The first thing that both groups need to do is recognize and accept the fears of the other group.  FOG members are not being "bitchy"; they just don't want to lose what they have.  Festool is not trying to be authoritarian; they just don't want to get nailed with negative publicity and lawsuits.  Each group MUST accept that the other group's fears are valid for them.

Once you accept that, you can start building a solution.  Members...  What would make you feel comfortable with Festool?  Tell them.  Give them ideas.  Festool...  What can you do to deal with the liability issues, and still meet member's needs and still protect yourselves?  How can you allay member fears?

Throw some ideas out.    Where is the middle ground?  How can you achieve consensus?  Whatever you do, don't back into your corners and snipe at the other group.

Regards,

Dan.

p.s. Most people here will agree that it's stupid to stick your hand in a spinning blade and it's your own fault if you do.  Whether it is stupid or not is irrelevant.  OF COURSE it's stupid and your own damn fault if you get hurt.  Everyone agrees with that including the Festool folks.  So stop hammering on the issue. It's NOT relevant!

What is relevant is whether a plaintiff's attorney can make a case that Festool is at fault for allowing that kind of information on their website.  Recognize that Festool can have some serious liability here.  The legal liability is bad, but the negative publicity could be much worse. 

 

[tbellemare]

Back in the 70's, I worked for money for a contractor, whose license my Father held...

My Dad taught me, as a kid, that if you want to work efficiently, you can't be scared. He also, and concurrently, taught me how to work safely.

Everyone has the ability to screw-up. I can remember that when I worked on ladders, there was always a warning, even back in the '70's, to not use the top. I was taught by everyone I worked with, that it was only sissy boys that ever paid attention to such warnings.

I carried around a 14' wooden step ladder all over the place and I can tell you, I used the top of it a LOT. I don't do that sort of thing much any more but I do occasionally, and I don't consider it foolish to violate what a manufacturer recommends as a safe position on a ladder. All I can say is, if you violate what they warned you about, you should be paying very close attention to what you're doing.

The worst thing you can do, IMHO, is something that scares you. If you are stupid enough to be dared into a scare, you deserve what you get...

Tom

 

[Brice Burrell]

I see a lot of fear in this thread.  Fear?  Yes, fear.   Men (most of the folks here) express fear as anger; it's just the way we are built.  Rather than express our fears, it comes out as anger.   That's what I see in this thread................

Thanks Dan, we needed that.

 

[Bob Marino]

Back in the 70's, I worked for money for a contractor, whose license my Father held...

My Dad taught me, as a kid, that if you want to work efficiently, you can't be scared. He also, and concurrently, taught me how to work safely.

Everyone has the ability to screw-up. I can remember that when I worked on ladders, there was always a warning, even back in the '70's, to not use the top. I was taught by everyone I worked with, that it was only sissy boys that ever paid attention to such warnings.

I carried around a 14' wooden step ladder all over the place and I can tell you, I used the top of it a LOT. I don't do that sort of thing much any more but I do occasionally, and I don't consider it foolish to violate what a manufacturer recommends as a safe position on a ladder. All I can say is, if you violate what they warned you about, you should be paying very close attention to what you're doing.

The worst thing you can do, IMHO, is something that scares you. If you are stupid enough to be dared into a scare, you deserve what you get...

Tom

 Tom,

Interesting story and I don't disagree with your comments. Trouble is, as stated so many times in this thread, we are such a litigous society, that the ladder manufacturer would be, if not top on the list, certainly one of the parties, held liable. It's unfortunate, but true.
Back to the OP, I bet it was a tough call for Festool to make, but it's a prudent one.

Bob

 Bob

 

[Dan Clark]

Back in the 70's, I worked for money for a contractor, whose license my Father held...

My Dad taught me, as a kid, that if you want to work efficiently, you can't be scared. He also, and concurrently, taught me how to work safely.

Everyone has the ability to screw-up. I can remember that when I worked on ladders, there was always a warning, even back in the '70's, to not use the top. I was taught by everyone I worked with, that it was only sissy boys that ever paid attention to such warnings.

I carried around a 14' wooden step ladder all over the place and I can tell you, I used the top of it a LOT. I don't do that sort of thing much any more but I do occasionally, and I don't consider it foolish to violate what a manufacturer recommends as a safe position on a ladder. All I can say is, if you violate what they warned you about, you should be paying very close attention to what you're doing.

The worst thing you can do, IMHO, is something that scares you. If you are stupid enough to be dared into a scare, you deserve what you get...

Tom

 Tom,

Interesting story and I don't disagree with your comments. Trouble is, as stated so many times in this thread, we are such a litigous society, that the ladder manufacturer would be, if not top on the list, certainly one of the parties, held liable. It's unfortunate, but true.
Back to the OP, I bet it was a tough call for Festool to make, but it's a prudent one.

Bob

 Bob

Bob,

Well stated.  While Tom is correct, what difference does it make?  We can argue about "rightness" 'til we're blue in the face and it won't make any difference...

If Festool doesn't protect itself, they can get nailed by an unscrupulous lawyer.  So what if Festool is innocent?!?  They can still still lose.

Regards,

Dan.

 

[tbellemare]

Festool, Louisville Ladder, Warner, etc. need to protect themselves - and they do...

Their patrons need to protect themselves, which is what I was trying to convey. That's all...

Tom

 

[Nigel]

    Can Festool not protect themselves with a disclaimer?Putting a warning pop up on "dangerous" posts as stated earlier seems a better option than censoring.There was also a trion mount in the deleted posts,was that also considered dangerous?I think this is an important threshold to cross for Festool.I would rather see Festool look at different methods of covering themselves.
    In some cases it can be difficult to decide what is safe,example,the use of ts55 without the rail?I would consider this dangerous as the saw can slide about and cause havoc.There are threads on here where the posters are split on this.One  described how he used this method all the time.Another described it as lunacy.Even if you consider this use to be only slightly dangerous will these threads now be deleted?
    It may be better for some to see what is unsafe and know it is unsafe than see nothing at all and know nothing.
            Nigel.

 

[jonny round boy]

OK, having slept on it, and reading the posts since (particularly Dan Clark's - thanks Dan) I realise that my first post was a bit 'negative', and on reflection perhaps a little childish. For that I apologise, however I'm still concerned about where this could lead.

I do appreciate the need for Festool to protect themselves from possible future litigation, but where is the line drawn? What is classed as 'unsafe'?

As Nigel said, there was also a Trion mounting plate thread. Would Festool USA consider mounting a jigsaw upside-down in a table unsafe? Especially since Festool (in the rest of the world) market a product for that very purpose?

And, once you go down the line of reducing litigation on safety grounds, what about other avenues? For example, I've just read a post stating that something was for sale from a vendor, with 'no tax, unless you're in New York'. I'm from the UK and as such know little about US tax law, but that's been discussed on here many times and a statement like that (and some of the other posts on the subject) could be interpreted as endorsing tax evasion. Are you going to start deleting all those as well? It seems to me that they could be regarded as just as much of a threat.

 

[justinmcf]

i remember the tsk1 when it first appeared here on the forum.
i dont remember it being unsafe.
it looked like a fantastic product and i also remember lots of other people saying it looked great.

however.
the video that steve posted was awful. it did not do his product any service what so ever!
the video looked very unsafe, as steve pushed the timber past the front of the blade and ended up with his right hand behind the blade.
this was pointed out to him by matthew and myself, steve acknowledged our concerns and then continued to make a new video showing the exact same unsafe procedure.
basically, what i am trying to say is, his video's would have been perfect and very professional looking,
if he had taken our advice and used a push stick.
i wonder if this is the reason that it was deleted from the forum?

regards, justin.

 

[fshanno]

Will Festool make more or less money now that Klingspor has hook loop paper with the Festool hole pattern.  Will this increase sales of sanders enough to compensate for lost sale of abrasives?  It's hard to figure out how the consumer doesn't benefit.  FestoolUSA should just embrace it and move on.  Make a section for third party mfgs.

 

[ForumMFG]

Peter,

Since festool is so big on safety and as you, someone who now represents festool, just described a very dangerous and unsafe situation that gives me the impression that its okay to operate a saw without the blade guard.   If its broke, dont fix it and pray that you dont get hurt.  I think that if i ever read anything on this forum that seemed to be unsafe, it would be your comments.  With all that said i understand your point. But my point is that your comments should be removed for the same reason the referenced thread was removed.  I dont agree with removing that thread and threads like that were some of the reasons why i enjoyed this forum so much.  

Whats the difference between not posting a video but describing what you did to your saw on a forum and then making a statement that safety is everyday?

I couldn't disagree more Dave.

I think Peter went out of his way to say "THIS IS DANGEROUS AND FOR MY HANDS ONLY".

I have a Hitachi SCM that has suffered abuse at my hands.  I am holding out to buy a Kapex.  The blade guard stopped working right.  I took it off.  The safety malfunctioned.  It has been rigged to be disabled.  OK, I know what I am working with. I couldn't allow anyone else to use that saw and sleep at night.  I couldn't allow another contractor to borrow that saw.  I wouldn't feel right posting one of my stupid videos showing that in operation because by doing so I would be condoning safety abandonment and I would feel bad as a human if I found out later that someone watched that video and got hurt.    We don't need to go into the other scenarios and the troubles I could start for myself.  We all know people who break the rules and never get caught.  Safety is everyday.  The difference between safe and unsafe is a millisecond.  Bob

Bob,

I completely understood his point and what you are saying.  My comments were made to make a point that if unsafe posts are removed such as the TSK1, then all unsafe posts should be removed.

 

[ForumMFG]

   
     It may be better for some to see what is unsafe and know it is unsafe than see nothing at all and know nothing.
             Nigel.

Great Point.