How are ya doing?

Welcome back Per, things are always more interesting when you're posting :-)  Hope things start picking up for you soon.

Fred
 
Somehow this conversation reminded me of a quote from Marx that I like. "The executive of the modern state is but a committee for managing the common affairs of the whole bourgeoisie"
 
Thank you all,

Jay. Ikea my ass.
Two words.

Particle board.
Lets broach the subject,
Are we wood workers?

Or are we money makers. I have said it more then once, I will say it again.
I will sooner stand on a street corner with a silly sign.

Then sell crap.

When you are done with me, your great grand children will wonder how he did that.
Its not about the money, its about the craft.
Its called dignity.

And when the shells are all boiled, that's really all you have.

Dignity.

Per

 
Per Swenson said:
....Or are we money makers. I have said it more then once, I will say it again.
I will sooner stand on a street corner with a silly sign.

Then sell crap.

When you are done with me, your great grand children will wonder how he did that.
Its not about the money, its about the craft.
Its called dignity.

And when the shells are all boiled, that's really all you have.

Dignity.

Per
Click to expand...

Sorry, I do this for a living. Nothing romantic about it. No, I won't wax poetic but I'll cash the paycheck even if than means getting out the caulking gun or installing the Depot's finest. Nothing wrong with having high standards.....and I'll get back to them when people want to pay for them again. 
 
Per Swenson said:
Brice,

Your reputation is for sale?

There is a word for that.

Per
Click to expand...

Per,

I've always respected your opinion, and found your posts entertaining, but that was a bit harsh. I too have high standards - way higher than a lot of work I've seen others do - but I'm not above doing 'lower spec' work if needs must. Which they do at the moment. A lot.

I've just fitted an Ikea kitchen. For reasons I won't get into right now, the job was a headache from the start, but when I'd finished it was the best Ikea kitchen I'd ever seen, and I was proud of the work I had done. I fitted it with the same attention to detail I would have if it was a kitchen they'd spent 10x the price on.

Just because the material is a lower quality, doesn't mean the end result has to be, too.

Oh, and last I checked, particle board was still made of wood. And here in the UK at least, even the most expensive kitchens use particle board for the carcases.
 
Jonny

With you on that!

Two years ago I was exclusively making bespoke furniture and kitchens and making a good living from it. Then when it all came crashing down and the phone stopped ringing I had a choice, diversify or die.

So now I make windows and doors, fit kitchens, (have done one with Focus units!! and had to put more screws in it that than an Afghan car bomb to keep it stable), have made wooden planters and anything else that will keep the finance rolling in.

Dont get me wrong Per, I too want to be considered a craftsman and create heirloom furniture but when the money is not moving I will "prostitute" myself to keep food on the table and my business going until the good times come round again.

The alternative is stacking shelves in Tesco's and thats non negociable!

Guy   
 
Johnny,
I accept you opinion.
See here is the rub,
If may take licenses with Shakespeare.
I simply wont sell  my self for a dollar.
Some where around here is a thing called principles
Brother, I will buy a trailer load of honesty,
Rather then sell you a load of dung.
And that's just the way we are wired.

Peace be with you today.

Per

 
Per,

I respect your opinion ( very much so ) but I don't quite grasp what "dignity" has to do with the material you use ? Perhaps it's my lesser understanding of your language ( i'm not a native speaker ) but in my somewhat simple book dignity is quite closely coupled to honesty.

I'm very clear about what quality I like to deliver, and if a customer wants something made out of particleboard I clearly inform him that this may not be the best choice in a certain situation, and that the cost of the materials vs. the cost of my labor would be a fair bit out of whack if I make some pieces out of particleboard. For I don't like to compromise on fit and finish, and my labor doesn't come cheap - I have to make a living out of it.
But when I've made clear that it may be bad economics in the somewhat longer run and that the client is essentially wasting money letting me build something out of a less than optimal material ( as a matter of fact, I don't believe particleboard to be the worst choice per se in certain situations ) and the client still wants me to build something out of particleboard, sometimes with a melamine coating with a woodprint that doesn't look very much like the wood it's supposed to mimick, and he asks me: "I know it's not optimal, but I like the way you work and I'd like you to build it for me" then who am I to argue any further ? In the end it's about delivering a service to your customer, and the service he wants. I think there's honour in chewing up your pride in order to deliver the service your customer wants.

Here in Holland it can be pretty hard to compete with a lot of contractors that have come over from the former Eastern European countries. Hard, because ( among a LOT of others ) there are some superb craftsmen among them, and they're willing to live in a trailer away from home for about 10 months a year or so while their costs of living are simply not comparable to mine, including the money they send home to support their family. Should I dislike them for doing that ? Of course not ! I admire their enterpreneurial spirit and their willingness to live apart from their families for so long.
Meanwhile I still have to make a living, so I have to offer something that appeals to a customer.
Somehow I still manage ( be it barely ) by being honest, charging for my work what I need to stay in business, and being very open about that, and about the choices there are.
I've never charged a dime for an esitmate ( however elaborate ) and just charge my work and materials.
Advice is freely given and always to the best of my knowledge, and I've never charged a dime for that either, for who knows if I might be wrong ?

I've recently come across a job that needed some stucco apart from the drywall and carpentry part, and I advised the homeowner to contact a certain Czech guy whom I think does a superb job for a ridiculously low price. "I'd rather have you do it" he says. "But honestly, he's the better craftsman, and I can't match even double his price" I replied. "Yes, I considered that - but I like the way you work and still want you to do it" he said.
In general I hate stuccoing, but I did this job with all the TLC I could come up with, and felt very good about it. The customer got his money's worth, at least from where I'm standing and he was very pleased with the result so I guess he feels the same way.

Bottomline: I deliver a SERVICE. I have a relationship with my customers, and I am willing to deliver a wide variety of services as long as they are within the scope of the rules and principles I try to follow driving my business. I try to be as open as possible about that. I have limits, but if a customer wants a particleboard kitchen cabinet I will deliver that. If he wants a particleboard built-in bookcase and entertainment center I think there would be fair deal of persuasion required, for I think that may be money wasted. But if he still wants it, despite my honest advise ? I'll build it, if  I'm sure the customer knows what he's doing, and knows that he may be throwing money down the drain.
If I knew that the built-ins were only meant to -say- "up" the price of a house I'd reconsider, and probably decline.

If your business principles state "I'll only work with solid wood...." that's fine by me, it's up to you of course. I think in the current economy that will mean that you're withholding your obviously superb craftsmanship from a growing group of people, but again that's all up to you.

But implying that anyone who's willing to do a decent day's work on less-then-stellar materials ( and probably be very honest about it ) is "selling a load of dung" is somewhat harsh from where I stand.

Sorry to all, this is a bit of a longwinded post. The art of compact formulation is not my forte and I obviously don't have Per's poetic skills.

Regards,

Job

 
jvsteenb said:
... I've never charged a dime for an estimate ( however elaborate ) and just charge for my work and materials.
Advice is freely given and always to the best of my knowledge, and I've never charged a dime for that either, for who knows if I might be wrong ?
Click to expand...

Very good post, Job. But I'll take issue with just one point.

I owned and operated several businesses during my career (now retired), and I was (mostly) successful with all of them. One thing I learned early on was that if I was going to make a decent profit, the customer had to pay for EVERYTHING. That includes ALL of my time plus ALL operating expenses. Of course, there were many things not itemized on the invoice, but they were figured in. That includes time spent driving back and forth (plus gas and vehicle maintenance), figuring out estimates, and yes, even giving advice.

Each of us has the same amount of time available every day to make a living, and those hours are far too precious to give away a single minute.
 
Yeah, it's called overhead.  Every little thing you spend money on to run your business gets factored in some way.

 
One thing I learned early on was that if I was going to make a decent profit, the customer had to pay for EVERYTHING. That includes ALL of my time plus ALL operating expenses. Of course, there were many things not itemized on the invoice, but they were figured in. That includes time spent driving back and forth (plus gas and vehicle maintenance), figuring out estimates, and yes, even giving advice.
Click to expand...

John,

That's obviously some sound business advice, and I wouldn't want to argue with that.
Still, in my egg-headed stubbornness, I tend to look at it from a somewhat different perspective.

First of all: I don't have the compelling need or desire to be wealthy. As long as I can support myself and my loved ones, pay the debts in in a way that keeps the bailiffs and judicial executors from my door, it's fine by me. I live in a small town, with a very high mean income profile ( second highest in the whole country ) and I'm acquainted to quite a few VERY wealthy people. They're not the least bit happier because of it, the opposite seems more true in most cases. I wouldn't want to switch places with most of them. Yes, I would like to to be able to buy the equipment that I think I need and that would make my work that much easier/better/healthier - whatever. But somehow that inability to cater to my direct "needs" hightens the enjoyment whenever I do find a way to afford it. It's a balance thing, I guess.

And then again: I like to consider myself as a craftsman. That's what I like to do. I like to be quite generic, not stuck to one set of tricks. Among other things I've been a professional CAD / GeoSystems engineer, and have been developing information architectures to suit. At the risk of sounding arrogant: I was very good at that. I've been "detached" to other companies for about five to six times the hourly rate that I charge, and it was willingly payed. But I found that although I very much liked working with the people involved, and delivering something that they would be satisfied with - I didn't really like the actual work - it was just a means to an end.
In the distant past, I've been an electronics engineer, a mechanic working on everything from ships engines to fast two stroke racing engines, and an ecological farmer, to name a few.
I'm not a very good carpenter, but at least a decent one. I build furniture, but there are others who's craftsmanship I can only admire without any hope I will ever reach that sort of perfection. But I'm proud of what I make, even if it's not going to end up in the Smithsonian.

And there's the bottom line for me: I like to earn my living doing what I like. Sometimes when I do an estimate, there's a disproportional amount of work involved. Just a couple of months ago, I did an estimate on a tree job ( I do a treecare service as well ) and my estimate was actually accompanied by an addendum that could very well be used as a complete VTA or visual tree assessment report. I didn't charge for that, but made it clear in the estimate, that when I would get the job, the report would be  factured in. I just put in the request that whenever they would like to get the job done by a competitor, I would like them to consider the report as confidential, and not to let the competitor read my notes. I really like my competitors in that field, for most of them are great guys, but I see no need to do their work for them without any return. I'll hang in my climbing belt doing that job the first week of May - the customer was in awe with my estimate, and wanted me to do VTA's ( paying work ) on a couple of other trees, and the neighbour showed quite some interest as well.

I make good estimates, and put a lot of work in them. I deliver sound advice, at least to my knowledge. Actually, I think I'm a better advisor then I am a craftsman. But that's just not what I want to earn my keep with. Not factoring them in is my way of keeping myself on edge, and delivering the quality that I like to deliver. Whenever a customer wants to pay for an "advice-only" job, that's fine by me.

And that about sums it up, I guess. I like to see the usual estimate and the advice I give as an investment from my part. One can never be sure about returns on investment. But If I don't want to invest in a job - how can I expect my potential customers to do so? After all it's rather a plunge to sign a contract, especially when you've never dealt with the craftsman before, and all you have is a recommandation, or word-to-mouth advertising to rely on.

Perhaps my business-model isn't very sound or adviseable. You may very well be right there. But it FITS me, it fits who I am, and the way I like to look at the world. So as long as I'm somehow able to keep my business running, I'll stick to it. Though I appreciate the advice VERY much ! ( I however hope you won't charge me for it....  [scared]) I hope you won't mind me carrying on as is...

Regards,

Job
 
Sorry, I do this for a living. Nothing romantic about it. No, I won't wax poetic but I'll cash the paycheck even if than means getting out the caulking gun or installing the Depot's finest. Nothing wrong with having high standards.....and I'll get back to them when people want to pay for them again. 
Click to expand...

Brice, I'l give ya a thumbs up for that one.  I'm not out to change the world I'm out to make a living.

Per you arn't auctioning off your reputation by installing home depot products or doing odd jobs so long as you maintain quality work.  I refuse to do work that I believe is fundamentally wrong and the end working result will unsatisfactoy; but that being said I will install lesser quality products to reduce overall price.

I think sometimes we get so wrapped up in our egos that we can't see the big picture. 
 
jvsteenb said:
One thing I learned early on was that if I was going to make a decent profit, the customer had to pay for EVERYTHING. That includes ALL of my time plus ALL operating expenses. Of course, there were many things not itemized on the invoice, but they were figured in. That includes time spent driving back and forth (plus gas and vehicle maintenance), figuring out estimates, and yes, even giving advice.
Click to expand...

John,

That's obviously some sound business advice, and I wouldn't want to argue with that.
Still, in my egg-headed stubbornness, I tend to look at it from a somewhat different perspective.

First of all: I don't have the compelling need or desire to be wealthy. As long as I can support myself and my loved ones, pay the debts in in a way that keeps the bailiffs and judicial executors from my door, it's fine by me. I live in a small town, with a very high mean income profile ( second highest in the whole country ) and I'm acquainted to quite a few VERY wealthy people. They're not the least bit happier because of it, the opposite seems more true in most cases. I wouldn't want to switch places with most of them. Yes, I would like to to be able to buy the equipment that I think I need and that would make my work that much easier/better/healthier - whatever. But somehow that inability to cater to my direct "needs" hightens the enjoyment whenever I do find a way to afford it. It's a balance thing, I guess.

And then again: I like to consider myself as a craftsman. That's what I like to do. I like to be quite generic, not stuck to one set of tricks. Among other things I've been a professional CAD / GeoSystems engineer, and have been developing information architectures to suit. At the risk of sounding arrogant: I was very good at that. I've been "detached" to other companies for about five to six times the hourly rate that I charge, and it was willingly payed. But I found that although I very much liked working with the people involved, and delivering something that they would be satisfied with - I didn't really like the actual work - it was just a means to an end.
In the distant past, I've been an electronics engineer, a mechanic working on everything from ships engines to fast two stroke racing engines, and an ecological farmer, to name a few.
I'm not a very good carpenter, but at least a decent one. I build furniture, but there are others who's craftsmanship I can only admire without any hope I will ever reach that sort of perfection. But I'm proud of what I make, even if it's not going to end up in the Smithsonian.

And there's the bottom line for me: I like to earn my living doing what I like. Sometimes when I do an estimate, there's a disproportional amount of work involved. Just a couple of months ago, I did an estimate on a tree job ( I do a treecare service as well ) and my estimate was actually accompanied by an addendum that could very well be used as a complete VTA or visual tree assessment report. I didn't charge for that, but made it clear in the estimate, that when I would get the job, the report would be  factured in. I just put in the request that whenever they would like to get the job done by a competitor, I would like them to consider the report as confidential, and not to let the competitor read my notes. I really like my competitors in that field, for most of them are great guys, but I see no need to do their work for them without any return. I'll hang in my climbing belt doing that job the first week of May - the customer was in awe with my estimate, and wanted me to do VTA's ( paying work ) on a couple of other trees, and the neighbour showed quite some interest as well.

I make good estimates, and put a lot of work in them. I deliver sound advice, at least to my knowledge. Actually, I think I'm a better advisor then I am a craftsman. But that's just not what I want to earn my keep with. Not factoring them in is my way of keeping myself on edge, and delivering the quality that I like to deliver. Whenever a customer wants to pay for an "advice-only" job, that's fine by me.

And that about sums it up, I guess. I like to see the usual estimate and the advice I give as an investment from my part. One can never be sure about returns on investment. But If I don't want to invest in a job - how can I expect my potential customers to do so? After all it's rather a plunge to sign a contract, especially when you've never dealt with the craftsman before, and all you have is a recommandation, or word-to-mouth advertising to rely on.

Perhaps my business-model isn't very sound or adviseable. You may very well be right there. But it FITS me, it fits who I am, and the way I like to look at the world. So as long as I'm somehow able to keep my business running, I'll stick to it. Though I appreciate the advice VERY much ! ( I however hope you won't charge me for it....  [scared]) I hope you won't mind me carrying on as is...

Regards,

Job
Click to expand...

Job,

I agree with you on almost everything you say. I was self employed for more than 10 years and always saw that initial report or detailed estimate as an investment I was making in a new client. 90% of the time it paid off because the client appreciated the effort and it differentiated me from competitors, and for the 10% that took the advice and used it to get cheaper elsewhere, I wished them well. Often, when the person who'd chosen to use my report and not hire me had moved on or left the company, I'd get a call from someone who remembered me and had taken their place. Karma, maybe..? 

Anyway, I'm with you on this one.
Rick
 
Rick,

Greetings, my friend. 

I agree with you 100%.  It makes no difference what service you provide, there are always those who are price sensitive and don't seem overly concerned about the quality of the service they receive, although they may have a change of heart after they receive the finished product.

As an accountant, I used to have my own practice.  If I received a call from a potential new client who stated that they had been referred by an existing client, I knew that it was probably a "go".  They were aware of my pricing structure, the quality of the service I rendered and the accuracy and timeliness of the product.

Often the call would begin, "I got your name out of the phone book.  How much do you charge?"  At first, my answer would revolve around the complexity of what was required and that a face-to-face would be advisable.  Their reply would be that they would call back.  Never happened.  After awhile my stock answer became, "I do not quote prices on the phone".  Same response or lack thereof from the caller.

I was at the lower end of pricing schedule.  But regardless of what you charge, there will always be someone less expensive.

Neill

 
Hey Per,

  Sometimes and at certain times in people's lives they may only be able to afford lower end stuff.  What's wrong with going in and doing a superb job installing that type of merchandise and then maybe years down the road those same folks position themselves to be able to afford better stuff and they might call you back.  There might even be the case where people don't want stuff to cost a lot and last forever.  Some people like to change things up every now and then.     

You know those gutters you're cleaning are just going to get dirty again too, don't you?

Chris...
 
Have you ever messed with installing "cost effective" items?

Most times it takes more time.

My time is worth the same no matter if I am installing a 25k kitchen or a 200 dollar pos door from home cheepo.

6/10 people probably don't like my prices, that's fine.

I can go broke quicker trying to work for everyone vs. sitting on the couch playing video games, waiting on the right job to start.

Sorry, that is just how it is.  It costs me $500.00+ each week just to be my own boss.
 
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