How good is Festool Dust Collection

[Crazyraceguy]

My biggest culprit for dust and chips is my router.  The radial arm saw has a dust collection port, but that is a joke.  The chop saw kicks the dust against a wall and it is easily vacuumed up.  But dust collection is kind of futile. 

Ive heard that Festool’s routers have effective dust collection.  That would be a motivation to make that purchase.

The drill press, with forstner bits, produces prodigious amounts of chips.  But those bits are used infrequently.

They do [member=74278]Packard[/member], even when the bit is well below the surface of the material. The "chip deflector" accessory can make a flush trim cut into a totally dust free experience, even on 3/4" thick material.
The OF1010 and OF1400 can both do this.

The best solution I have come up with for Forstner bits on the drill press is an air hose nozzle blowing those fluffy curls toward a funnel style collector cup, like they advertise for lathe use or the bottom of a table saw that comes with nothing. The higher volume dust collectors don't create enough static pressure (suction) to pull the chips to the funnel, but  it will take them away when "motivated" by the air. It doesn't take much pressure, just constant movement in the right direction.
This kind of assumes that one has a compressor that is capable of running like that for a while.

 

[Packard]

I tried editing the quote above, but failed miserably.  I am referencing the post above from Crazy R.

My air compressor is not up to that task, but my leaf blower is.  The question becomes, how do I reduce the amount of air flow from the leaf blower.  I am thinking using a vacuum air hose that is ventilated far from the drill press.  The amount of holes will have to be properly balanced to not over-power the high volume of the dust collection.

I have done something similar in my photo studio.  The fans that you see used to make a beautiful model’s hair blow in studio shots is made with a ridiculously expensive fan made for that purpose.  Back in the 1980s, it was over $500.00.  I have no idea what it costs now. 

I hooked a leaf blower into a box and ran a long hose from that.  The box and leaf blower were in the next room because of the noise.  I aimed the hose at the model’s hair.  It worked fine, and it was largely silent.  But it moved a lot of air. 

I will have to think on this.  It could work.

Addendum:  B & H Photo in New York still sells these fans.  $950.00.  Inflation, I guess.
I would probably still hook up my leaf blower.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...YkByUpRvGBQdCuVLHYg4pffbBfTCMFvwaAqDBEALw_wcB

 

[Crazyraceguy]

[member=74278]Packard[/member] that might be a bit of overkill? Unless your compressor is really tiny a Milton 115 type blow nozzle should work. It's a tiny thing, smaller than an ink pen and opens by a screw mechanism. It can be clamped in place with a simple spring clamp and directed/adjusted to exactly where needed, it's totally hands free at that point and using minimal air.
Those big ol' pistol things will blow the chips all over the place, rather than the "suggestion" of moving in the right direction.

 

[Mini Me]

If I wanted a high pressure vacuum based extraction system I would use a central vacuum unit such as used in houses and hard pipe it as needed. The vac unit would not be in the workshop to eliminate any possibility of leaks as most vacuums I know of that have been tested all leak to some degree. I hesitate to call high pressure systems dust extractors as I see them as vacuum systems that keep the work environment clean and they do a good job for that but the small particle dust hazard is another issue altogether.

Static causing fires? I have never seen any documented proof in all the years I have been involved in selling systems to the hobby workshop user which is a different market entirely to commercial systems. I have had my own system for about 15 years piped in PVC and never had a static problem. 

 

[mino]

As has been stated, pretty much any kind of vacuum machine can do the air moving part. ...

Ehm. Moving, sure, any vac will do. From the workpiece to one's lungs most will do so pretty reliably!

Capturing the dust is the more tricky part ... /Yes, I know you meant professional properly rated DCs ... but those are no "any vacs" .. Are they./

As for sanders and dust .. it is not just about shocks. When the sander is charged (hey Bosch!) its body keeps attracting dust particles so the whole sander is eventually "burried" in a layer of sanded material .. this is especially wonderful if, say, red paint is being sanded ...

For those not aware, Festool uses different sandpaper hole patterns. And there are good reasons for that. FT sanders actually collect most (think 99+% most) of the dust. Not like the other "professional" sanders which do sport dust collection ports but not much the collection itself.

Simple rule for me - if the sander is nor made from antistatic material, it is a pass by default. If the maker cannot get this basic aspect right, there is little chance he will get the other things right ..

 

[mino]

If I wanted a high pressure vacuum based extraction system I would use a central vacuum unit such as used in houses and hard pipe it as needed. The vac unit would not be in the workshop to eliminate any possibility of leaks as most vacuums I know of that have been tested all leak to some degree. I hesitate to call high pressure systems dust extractors as I see them as vacuum systems that keep the work environment clean and they do a good job for that but the small particle dust hazard is another issue altogether.
...

Stupid question, how many Festool CTs do you own ?

The whole "Festool SelfClean bags are great" thing is here pretty much the talk how CTs do address the concern you voiced. And yes, it does work.

 

[Hipplewm]

If I wanted a high pressure vacuum based extraction system I would use a central vacuum unit such as used in houses and hard pipe it as needed. The vac unit would not be in the workshop to eliminate any possibility of leaks as most vacuums I know of that have been tested all leak to some degree. I hesitate to call high pressure systems dust extractors as I see them as vacuum systems that keep the work environment clean and they do a good job for that but the small particle dust hazard is another issue altogether.
...

Stupid question, how many Festool CTs do you own ?

The whole "Festool SelfClean bags are great" thing is here pretty much the talk how CTs do address the concern you voiced. And yes, it does work.

I don't like the self clean as it exposes you to everything you are trying to avoid when you empty it.  I gladly toss out the single use bags (I admittedly do buy the knockoffs for about $4 a bag)  If you bag your shop vac you can get really close to a DC, but the noise, and longer run times seem to make them go bad much sooner.

 

[mino]

I don't like the self clean as it exposes you to everything you are trying to avoid when you empty it.  I gladly toss out the single use bags (I admittedly do buy the knockoffs for about $4 a bag)  If you bag your shop vac you can get really close to a DC, but the noise, and longer run times seem to make them go bad much sooner.

I believe you are misunderstanding what SeflCleanTM means in the context of Festool CT vacs/dust extractors.



ADD:
The 90% of value of the Festool CTs is the fact they do not leak dust either mechanically (are precisely made) or through the SelfClean bags. That is THE value one gets from them. Throwing it all out by using cheap L-class level bags is, just, wrong.

In any case it has no relation to whether CTs do filter the air properly or not. Most likely when abused with destroyed main filter /hey, cleaning by compressed air!/ and using cheapo bags they do not. But then those are customized tools intentionally made to leak. Whatever the reasons. Not how the product is sold or intended to be used.

 

[Hipplewm]

Yeah, I meant more the reusable ones, which is what I thought they were talking about but maybe not......

Either way if the bag is used in a Festool or a shop vac it performs the same function, but getting bags for shop vacs is a whole thing itself, then the run time and noise issue - no way to vary their power etc - by the time you dealt with all that you could have just bought a CT and been on your way to sanding

 

[Packard]

[member=74278]Packard[/member] that might be a bit of overkill? Unless your compressor is really tiny a Milton 115 type blow nozzle should work. It's a tiny thing, smaller than an ink pen and opens by a screw mechanism. It can be clamped in place with a simple spring clamp and directed/adjusted to exactly where needed, it's totally hands free at that point and using minimal air.
Those big ol' pistol things will blow the chips all over the place, rather than the "suggestion" of moving in the right direction.

I have a pancake P-C oilless compressor. It depends on three drops of oil in the tool to lube the compressor. I would not trust it to cycle for long periods of time.

 

[Packard]

Yeah, I meant more the reusable ones, which is what I thought they were talking about but maybe not......

Either way if the bag is used in a Festool or a shop vac it performs the same function, but getting bags for shop vacs is a whole thing itself, then the run time and noise issue - no way to vary their power etc - by the time you dealt with all that you could have just bought a CT and been on your way to sanding

I have an older Electrolux canister vacuum.  The selling point for me was that it was the quietest vacuum on the market back then (about 66 db).  Something I wanted because my neighbor in our condo complained about every sound I made.

Less important to me was that it took two vac bags and a warning light came on when it was in need of changing.  The first bag, which gets changed frequently, collects dust.  The second bag which rarely needs changing is a HEPA filter.

I retired it because the beater bar carpet assembly failed twice and it cost $225.00 the first time.  And I bought a Kenmore entire vac for less than that the second time.  Noisier, but I was living in my own home by then.

The bags used to be very expensive, but apparently Electrolux manufactured the Kenmore and bags became very cheap.  It works fine as dust collection for my scroll saw.  But it is quiet, and I have to remember to turn it off.

 

[mino]

Yeah, I meant more the reusable ones, which is what I thought they were talking about but maybe not......

Either way if the bag is used in a Festool or a shop vac it performs the same function, but getting bags for shop vacs is a whole thing itself, then the run time and noise issue - no way to vary their power etc - by the time you dealt with all that you could have just bought a CT and been on your way to sanding

I think you are missing the point by looking at it from a simplified perspective of "a vac is a vac is a vac". Not so.

The Festool bags are of a MUCH higher quality than bags of (most) other makers. This is both reg. filtration level - i.e. what they (not) leak - and vis-a-vis how consitent perfomance they provide - they do not clog. I would even argue that the fact they have the SelfClean tech is why the bags can be so good at filtration. If a "normal" paper bag was made with such small pores, it would clog very fast and the power of the turbine will eventualy punch holes in it. Not so with SelfClean.

End result is that the CT bags filter the air getting through them to a level UNLIKE non-original "compatible" bags or (most) bags from the other makers. It has nothing to do with "Festool tax" and all kinds of reasons people come up with regularly.

By "other" I am not talking Harbor Freight pieces. I am talking the Makita, Metabo etc. professional dust extractors.

We had L*class Makitas and threw them out because they were spitting out the micro-dust back into the shop air. We could observe it by the micro-film of dust left after a few days when my CTM 36 that is normally used was offline. One could not see the micro-dust when sanding, but it sure was visible everywhere on surfaces after a few days. Not so when the CT was used for the same task. And that was from a new Makita with new main filter and new bags.

One last. The reusable bags Festool sells are NOT rated for use with micro-dust. They are only for big chips tools like a planer, router etc. Not for sanding. For micro-dust the economical choice is to use a cyclone and a standard SelfClean bag.

 

[Hipplewm]

One last. The reusable bags Festool sells are NOT rated for use with micro-dust. They are only for big chips tools like a planer, router etc. Not for sanding. For micro-dust the economical choice is to use a cyclone and a standard SelfClean bag.

I have 3 setups in my shop -
Large 6" cyclone with a 2HP blower - mainly for planer, table saw, router table bandsaw etc - stuff that makes chips and flow > suction
small cyclone hooked to a shop vac - mainly smaller chip stuff - pocket holes, joiner, mitre saw
festool CT - sanding, domino and biscuits

I got by with the small cyclone and shop vac for a while, but the chips would overwhelm the small cyclone and sanding dust would bypass the cyclone and clog the filter - so I put a bag in the shop vac, but this killed performance so much that it made doing any task bad.

If I had to do it over, I would have started with the Festool CT and connect in a small cyclone when needed - and if you can't afford a CT initially start with a shop vac until that gets on your nerves and then by a CT.

Once you can afford a planer and cabinet table saw though, you will have to buy something to play with those big toys.

 

[mino]

One last. The reusable bags Festool sells are NOT rated for use with micro-dust. They are only for big chips tools like a planer, router etc. Not for sanding. For micro-dust the economical choice is to use a cyclone and a standard SelfClean bag.

I have 3 setups in my shop -
Large 6" cyclone with a 2HP blower - mainly for planer, table saw, router table bandsaw etc - stuff that makes chips and flow > suction
small cyclone hooked to a shop vac - mainly smaller chip stuff - pocket holes, joiner, mitre saw
festool CT - sanding, domino and biscuits

I got by with the small cyclone and shop vac for a while, but the chips would overwhelm the small cyclone and sanding dust would bypass the cyclone and clog the filter - so I put a bag in the shop vac, but this killed performance so much that it made doing any task bad.

If I had to do it over, I would have started with the Festool CT and connect in a small cyclone when needed - and if you can't afford a CT initially start with a shop vac until that gets on your nerves and then by a CT.

Once you can afford a planer and cabinet table saw though, you will have to buy something to play with those big toys.

That is actually a pretty good setup ... I reacted a bit more elaborately mostly so people reading this a year down the line do no get wrong impressions.

E.g. I am a big fan of the big bins for Festool CTs - be it the CT 25 bin or the CT 48 bin. This is *only* after I "discovered" how good the SelfClean bags are. And how crappy even the "industrial XYZ rated" competition is in comparison. In my practice, thanks to how well they work, it actually often makes sense to use the bigger CT48 bins as opposed to a CT-VA kind of a setup when on a budget. A bit of a middle ground.
With other "industrial" vacs I found that the bigger bins actualy do not work - the bags clog up (and eventually leak as the turbine will push the clog through) well before the big bag is full.

Only thing I would disagree with is the "If you cannot afford a CT". With the availability of CT 15 these days, that is what people on a budget should shoot for.

Reason being that, unless someone is a pro, "normal" people do not come in contact with vacs that actualy do capture the micro-dust. So beginners will (wrongly) align their workflows with that assumption and waste a lot of resources (mainly mantime) because of that, trying to adapt non-quality vacs etc. etc. Some folks I know even completely abandoned any WW messing around "because of all of that mess". Just because they did not have a quality DC at hand.

This is like it is better to get a used Festool ETS 150 or ETS 125 as one's -first- sander compared to a new Bosch or Makita etc. It allows people to not start hating sanding from the get go ... sure, the Bosch RO equivalent is a good buy. But not as one's first pro sander.

 

[Mini Me]

Stupid question, how many Festool CTs do you own ?

I don't need one.

 

[mino]

I don't need one.

Thanks, I assumed as much and very much respect (envy?) the proper shop setup you got.

Unfortunately most people are not in such a good position with space/resources.

Only thing I ask is to please not tell others that the Festool CT dust extractors or vacuums, whatever, do not extract the microparticles from the contaminated air. They do. It is their raison d'être.

... but the small particle dust hazard is another issue altogether.

People buy these and pay so much for the bags because the Festool CTs were designed from the get go to address the micro-particle issue for woodworkers. They actually do work up to an extent that the air leaving the CT is normally cleaner than the one present in the shop .. and this was proven with several tests not just anecdotally. Easy way to validate this is to look at the main filter on the CT 26s series. If a CT was used properly, it would be completely clean after years of use. This is because the main filter is only a "backup" filter, just in case the bag fails for whatever reason.

For context which you may not be aware, Festool was OEM-ing their CTs in the past but eventually gave up and created their own manufacturing base. This is what makes them "special" in several ways on the market. Not all are good ones, like the cost of spares .. . Reason for that was the "normal" mass market industrial vac makers were just not interested in the level of filtration and general ergonomics Festool was after. This is no praise, just a matter of fact. The last non-Festool vac was, I believe, the CT 17. And even that had a semi-custom filter design.

So sure, they are expensive - when used properly - no main filter cleaning, fresh bags, etc. - but they do provide value compared to many (most?) other industrial vaccums.

I am not sure who did the test when, but I remember they got results such that air taken from the street was more poluted than what was coming out of a CT26 used with a sander. Sure, there are out-of-civilization places on Earth this will not hold.
But e.g. in our shop, in the middle of a european city, I am confident that the air we take from the outside has more micro-dust in it than the one my CTM 36 spews out.

And if one was not satisfied with that, the CTH series difference is only in the filters - no problem buying asbestos-rated bags and the main filter if one wanted the absolute safety. The universal CT 26/36/48 series chassis are build with that level of filtration in mind.

/end rant

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Easy way to validate this is to look at the main filter on the CT 26s series. If a CT was used properly, it would be completely clean after years of use. This is because the main filter is only a "backup" filter, just in case the bag fails for whatever reason.

That is absolutely my experience. The CT26 I bought in September 2019 still has the original HEPA filter.
I did buy a new one, as a back-up, just incase I needed it, but it still sits in the drawer. I used to check it during every bag change, now I don't bother. I do still look at it quarterly or so, but it's always fine.

 

[ChuckM]

I can't find a definitive word on when a CT HEPA filter should be replaced, at least not in any Festool documentation. Floating around the web are suggestions of replacing the filter every 6 months or every year:

6 months (see reply #7) -https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/ask-festool/ct26-hepa-filter-how-to-know-when-to-replace/

Annually -https://www.ultimatetools.ca/products/festool-hepa-main-filter-element-ptfe-for-ct-26-36-48-205412

Of course, the actual usage and applications are relevant, and the passage of time is not necessarily the determining factor. My CT15 is only 2 years old, and I have no plans of replacing the filter yet (I do keep a spare filter around). Other non-Festool washable HEPA filters (for my shop vacs) are cleaned once every 6 months.

 

[Cheese]

The drill press, with forstner bits, produces prodigious amounts of chips.  But those bits are used infrequently.

When using Forstner bits, I assembled some flex hose & fittings and made a bracket with magnets that attaches to the sidewall of the drill press table.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

That was certainly a lot better than before...but I eventually retired that set-up in favor of the Woodpeckers fence that attaches to a vac. This fence works well with Forstner bits...a high recommend.

[attachimg=3]

[attachimg=4]

 

[ChuckM]

I have yet to find a solution on the drill press that captures the dust and chips to my satisfaction. I bought the Drillnado but never use it, because it isn't compatible with my drill press for installation.


I'll revisit the drill press and the drillnado to see if I could find a way to make it work.