How hard can it be to purchase Hammer products?

[junk731]

Welcome to the world of higher end woodworking equipment. Most suppliers like Martin, Felder, SCM etc work from contracts especially when the machines are made to order. While most of the Hammer line is the entry level with fewer options to the Felder line, a lot of it is now stocked to cut down on wait times. It is typically offered  first even if it isn't exactly what you want, your choice shorter wait or 3 to 4 month delivery.

John

Did I hear a chuckle at the end of that first sentence? [big grin]

Yeah, I hear you on the contract requirement.  I have no problem with that at all.  I will admit that this is new to me, but I understand why they do that and also why they want 20% up front.  I'd probably do likewise if I were them.  If a guy backs out that 20% will probably end up be the 'restocking fee'. [scared]

Thanks for your post.

One other small note try not to get sucked in to buying a machine that's not on sale or given a discount. These machines go on sale constantly especially around woodworking show times and you can save between 10 and 20%. I've own 8 different Felder machines since 2007 and never paid what they are asking. Also make sure you get all the accessories included in the quote also cheaper. The reason you may feel shipping is high is because of the shippers they use, but if the shipment is damaged they typically come good quickly. Many also don't want to pay for commissioning, typically a big mistake on a longer slider that's traveled from Austria in a shipping container and has to customer assembled once it arrives.

John

John

 

[mbrusso]

I recently had a difficult experience purchasing a Hammer F3 from the the Mississauga Felder branch in Canada.  The salesperson was all over me to make the purchase as soon as I expressed interest. When the product showed up at my door, the guys who handled the machine had scraped up the side of the machine with their forklift and delivered it to me in that shape.

I've never seen anything like that in my life. When I talked to them about it, I got the "well maybe we can give you a discount on your next purchase" explanation.

I was charged full price for a floor model- delivered in rough shape. When I bought all of my powermatic equipment which  is supposedly an inferior brand, everything showed up in mint shape. The buying experience with that brand was a shining star in comparison.

 

[junk731]

Tell them to take the unit back and make it right and keep on them. I can almost guess the salesperson you were dealing with. Hopefully you didn't sign anything that said you accepted it in that condition. That is the office that I dealt with and they are not the best at keeping their customers happy after delivery. They will not get anymore of my business after recent dealings.

John

 

[ben_r_]

Huh, I work about 15 minutes from the Sacramento Hammer/Felder sales office and bought my N4400 there and had nothing but great communication and service. Been saving for an A3-31 that Ill be picking up from there as well someday. That said I also deal with Liz Rogers in that office. Her email is: e.rogers@felderusa.com and her number is: 916-375-3190

ben_r, thanks for your post.

I wish I lived that close to a Hammer/Felder sales office.  This is twice that someone has mentioned Liz Rodgers.  Thanks for providing her email and phone number. 

Question for you:  What are the power requirements for the N4400?  20A or 30A breaker?  Or better yet, how many amps does the 1phase 220v motor pull?  Thanks.

Yea, about that power question, I have seen that discussed several times around the net. I have even had Liz look into it further for me. a 20A 220V circuit is all you need for the Hammer 4HP motor that is in the N4400 and A3-31 (those are the only two I use that motor, there might be more but Im not sure). I have been running my N4400 on 20A circuit since day one and its never caused any issue that Im aware of and Liz said everyone theyve sold them too has as well to the best of her knowledge.

 

[rljatl]

Huh, I work about 15 minutes from the Sacramento Hammer/Felder sales office and bought my N4400 there and had nothing but great communication and service. Been saving for an A3-31 that Ill be picking up from there as well someday. That said I also deal with Liz Rogers in that office. Her email is: e.rogers@felderusa.com and her number is: 916-375-3190

ben_r, thanks for your post.

I wish I lived that close to a Hammer/Felder sales office.  This is twice that someone has mentioned Liz Rodgers.  Thanks for providing her email and phone number. 

Question for you:  What are the power requirements for the N4400?  20A or 30A breaker?  Or better yet, how many amps does the 1phase 220v motor pull?  Thanks.

Yea, about that power question, I have seen that discussed several times around the net. I have even had Liz look into it further for me. a 20A 220V circuit is all you need for the Hammer 4HP motor that is in the N4400 and A3-31 (those are the only two I use that motor, there might be more but Im not sure). I have been running my N4400 on 20A circuit since day one and its never caused any issue that Im aware of and Liz said everyone theyve sold them too has as well to the best of her knowledge.

I called the Delaware office to specifically ask the question about required amps.  The technical person I spoke to said 30 amps for the 4hp A3 31.  The setup manual says 30amps and the plate on the back of the machine says 18.9amps (or 19.8amps, can't remember which).  For safety's sake, these machines should run at no more than 80% of the circuit's amperage.

 

[patriot]

Regarding your experience with the sales rep - I frequently need to remind myself to "assume positive intent".  Believe me, it's difficult at times but it really does work in your favor.

When you received the follow up consider the following - he had already typed up the follow-up email and never hit send.  I do it all the time at work.  Make me a bad person?  Nope, everyone gets busy, distracted by the boss...only to return to find your darn PC has been auto-restarted to apply a windows patch by the IT department.  He could have quickly hit send without proofreading out of embarrassment when he was reminded he never followed up?  Tried to send you a "contract" because he couldn't remember the true context of your previous engagement and figured it was for a quote and didn't want you to have to ask again because that might just make you more displeased.

I only share this angle because I believe I tend to more frequently fail to assume positive intent.  When I reflect I realize that, for the most part, the only thing I get out of those situations  is unhappiness which I occasionally then push onto someone else.  Rarely did it benefit anyone.  I can, on the other hand, remember dozens of times where I've been rewarded for being nice or friendly - a drink on the house, a discount when one wasn't actually available, a freebie here and there. 

I say give the dude a break, smile at him through the phone, and see what happens next.  If you do you might just be helping me out since there's a good chance I'm the next one he'll be talking to. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Guilty as charged. 

In all honesty, I did consider the fact that his sent email may have been composed three days earlier and not been sent for whatever reason.  I'll buy that.  But, I would also assume that any rep (who wants to be successful) should keep a 'file' of some sort on each actual/potential customer so as to serve him better and keep the rep from making a fool of himself in the future.  Morgan noted earlier (in this thread) that a Felder rep mentioned  "I was speaking to Mike and he told me you were wanting to upgrade your slider...".  Morgan had no idea who this Mike was, which underscores my point. 

I could continue making assumptions, but I'd be spinning my wheels.  However, your assumption was a good one, but man - I have never suffered fools gladly, moreso when I am ready to purchase something from them. 

Lastly, I will add that this makes me ponder that if they are making it difficult before I purchase from them what can I expect after I make the purchase and need assistance?

I appreciate your comments.

 

[mbrusso]

Tell them to take the unit back and make it right and keep on them. I can almost guess the salesperson you were dealing with. Hopefully you didn't sign anything that said you accepted it in that condition. That is the office that I dealt with and they are not the best at keeping their customers happy after delivery. They will not get anymore of my business after recent dealings.

John

Hi John Thanks for sharing your experience.  I signed off noting the damage on the sign off form, but in the end, I'm likely not going to pursue any kind of return, as I've moved on and started setup of my machine.  It's going to cost me more time, and headache than what it's worth to go down that road. I just need to get working with my machine now.

One of his comments was "the beauty of powder coated paint is you can just take a scotch brite pad to scuffs and remove them" LOL. It was completely scraped off on spots on the bottom. also "yeah the guys can be kind of careless with the fork lift machine when moving equipment"  I asked "If I opened a brand new festool item in its systainer and saw it was damaged in any way, do you think I would accept it at the point of sale and buy it? So why would I act any differently just because it is a large machine and being shipped in a different manner"

Absolutely Brutal.

 

[patriot]

[member=49475]patriot[/member]

If you should happen to do the Hammer K3 & N4400 & whatever other machine
ship them all at once and save $$ on the shipping.

I paid extra shipping for the FAT300, #1 because I wanted it now or #2
wait 2 more months. Shipping for that wasnt fun either.
Other than that, service was great and even if I havent purchased anything
lately I still get an email here/there if I may need something or what sale is on.
The wait sucks but at least you have time to reconfigure your setup if need be.

Thanks for your informative post and suggestions.

One theme that I am picking up from all of the posts made in this thread is that, generally speaking,  you guys that purchase your Hammer/Felder gear from the East coast dealer get superior service.  This seems not to be the case from those who deal with the West coast dealers.  Funny, but no one has chimed in on their experience with the Dallas dealer??

I appreciate your comments.

 

[ben_r_]

Huh, I work about 15 minutes from the Sacramento Hammer/Felder sales office and bought my N4400 there and had nothing but great communication and service. Been saving for an A3-31 that Ill be picking up from there as well someday. That said I also deal with Liz Rogers in that office. Her email is: e.rogers@felderusa.com and her number is: 916-375-3190

ben_r, thanks for your post.

I wish I lived that close to a Hammer/Felder sales office.  This is twice that someone has mentioned Liz Rodgers.  Thanks for providing her email and phone number. 

Question for you:  What are the power requirements for the N4400?  20A or 30A breaker?  Or better yet, how many amps does the 1phase 220v motor pull?  Thanks.

Yea, about that power question, I have seen that discussed several times around the net. I have even had Liz look into it further for me. a 20A 220V circuit is all you need for the Hammer 4HP motor that is in the N4400 and A3-31 (those are the only two I use that motor, there might be more but Im not sure). I have been running my N4400 on 20A circuit since day one and its never caused any issue that Im aware of and Liz said everyone theyve sold them too has as well to the best of her knowledge.

I called the Delaware office to specifically ask the question about required amps.  The technical person I spoke to said 30 amps for the 4hp A3 31.  The setup manual says 30amps and the plate on the back of the machine says 18.9amps (or 19.8amps, can't remember which).  For safety's sake, these machines should run at no more than 80% of the circuit's amperage.

LOL and thats why there are several threads around the net with the question. Welp, all I can say is Ive been running mine on a 20A and have never blown a circuit or seen or heard anything that caused me any concern. However its not like running it on a 30A could hurt, so if youve got the 30A run use it!

 

[Max Fracas]

I'm running my A3/41 on a 20A circuit.  I can't remember where, but I recall reading  to put it on a 20A circuit and so far that has worked out just fine.

 

[patriot]

I'm running my A3/41 on a 20A circuit.  I can't remember where, but I recall reading  to put it on a 20A circuit and so far that has worked out just fine.

I'm not sure about your machine, but all of my motors have a plate that tells you what the amp draw is.

[attachimg=1]

If you look at the image above you will see AMPS. Next to that you will see 18/9. That means that the motor will pull 18A if configured for 120V, else it will pull 9A if set up to use 220V.

 

[southrider]

I have bought two Hammer machines from the California office, and came away with a "not so great" feeling about their attitude. I tried dealing with Delaware, but they decided that Louisiana was in the "west", so Calif. it was.

I dealt with a salesman that may no longer be there, and I don't remember his name. At that time Liz was an assistant to the sales team, but was always so cheerful and friendly that I wished that I was dealing with her.

On my second purchase a few years ago the salesman basically did not ever get back to me with answers to question for weeks, and I ended up with Fergus (whom I thought was a manger or senior sales). He acted like he was doing me a favor, and wouldn't honor the price I was previously quoted by the guy who went AWOL (although I had it in an email) because it had been several weeks (while I was waiting on answers to my questions). Fergus basically talked to me like he was doing ME a favor.

I finally got the machine for an in-between price, and haven't looked back. Since then Liz has become a salesperson, and does a nice job of touching base a couple times a year by email.

Last week I had problems logging in to their website and had to reset my password. The next day I got an email from "Sam" in Dallas noting that he saw me setting up a new user account, and offering to answer any questions I might have. My first response was 'WHAT", but instead I politely responded that I was just resetting my password, owned 2 machines already, and was being taken care of by Liz.

He responded very genuinely, apologized for the mistake, and let me know that territories are being re-assigned since Dallas is now up and running and closer to me.

I think that some of the Germanic stubbornness from Felder in Austria must rub off on the US offices a bit. In the 70's I raced Penton motorcycles, which were made by KTM in Austria. John Penton (from Ohio) spent 10 years building the bike of his vision, and hired KTM to do it. He almost went to blows with Eric Trunkenpolz (the T in KTM) many times in getting the bikes built.

Felder/Hammer makes great machines, and they do it their way, including the sale. So if you want their equipment just muddle through. In the long run the sales process will become just a memory, but the machines will literally be there forever.

As for the sawstop question. I went through a similar process. My hand surgeon (I had arthritis) was adamant that I get a sawstop. The euro sliding saws are just as safe in a different way. If you leave the riving knife/dust collecter chute on then your hands never come near the blade. The riving knife nearly eliminates kickback, and if using the table it is eliminated completely. The dust collection is pretty darn good compared to a cabinet saw, so much better on your lungs.

And last - you mostly stand to the left of the saw, not behind it - so you are much more protected from the dust and projectiles that do come out of the machine.

My only regret was not getting a bigger one. I have the 48 x 48 with no outrigger, and wish that I could straight line 8' on the sliding table, but have gotten very good at using my ts55 for that...

 

[junk731]

As far as motor and loads go if the saw draws 18 amps on 220V it should by code in both the US and Canada be wired into a 30 amp circuit using 10ga. 20 amp services runs a 12 gauge wire and should only be loaded to 75% to 80% of rated capacity, so by code you can run 16A rated motors on this circuit. Will the motor run on a 20 amp circuit, yes it will but an inspector will slap your wrist and so might your house insurance if there is ever a problem. All good electricians know this.

John

 

[patriot]

[member=42863]SouthRider[/member]

Man, what a post!!  Thank you very much for all of that information.

When I was reading your comments I kept thinking 'He's in Louisiana, so why's he not working with the Dallas dealer?', but you cleared that up.  Also, this makes the third or forth time that Liz is mentioned.

You may or may not know this, but I have an email waiting to be sent to the Senior Sales rep in Delaware and am teetering on whether to purchase another brand or as you said just 'muddle' through it all and be done with it.  I am also wondering if I should just wait for a Sale to come up which may be soon and save some cash?

I recently read a post somewhere which noted that Felder/Hammer rep's had a very 'teutonic' attitude in dealing with their clients.  My Funk & Wagnal defines that (in so many words) as 'very German like'.  That pretty much mirrors what you noted.

Quite honestly, years ago I trashed the riving knife and the blade hood of my TS when I began making/using my own sleds.  That was years ago.  I have a deep respect for all power tools that cut, but riving knives do not work on TS due to the back support of the sled.  That said, just as you noted, standing off to the side of the slider is just a safe as using a SS.  And, as I noted earlier, the 12-inch blade  of a K3 would allow me to get rid of my RAS and my TS which would 'expand' my shop.

You have given me much to ponder.  Thank you very much for all of your comments.

 

[southrider]

I'd suggest calling Liz and asking what she can do to help. Their sales are oriented around the seasons, and sometimes feature machines while other times are accessories (usually winter I think).

I thought there was a sale going on now - check their "eshop". it shows the sales price when their is one.

 

[ben_r_]

I'd suggest calling Liz and asking what she can do to help. Their sales are oriented around the seasons, and sometimes feature machines while other times are accessories (usually winter I think).

I thought there was a sale going on now - check their "eshop". it shows the sales price when their is one.

They ALWAYS have some sale going on. So often that they may as well just lower the prices!

 

[Huxleywood]

If you are or become truly fed up, you might consider SCMI/Minimax.  If so get in touch with Sam Blasco.  If you are processing logs you will likely be happier with the MM16 or MM20 than the N4400.  The MM series saws are built by Centauro in Italy and are heavier than the X10 series Felder saws (similar to the X40 series) and heavier than the ACM built Laguna, all of those saws are a step up from the N series Hammer saws.  I always thought the N4400 was a good buy when you could get it for under $2k but much less of a deal now. 

I know less about the differences between the Hammer vs Minimax sliders. 

 

[patriot]

I'd suggest calling Liz and asking what she can do to help. Their sales are oriented around the seasons, and sometimes feature machines while other times are accessories (usually winter I think).

I thought there was a sale going on now - check their "eshop". it shows the sales price when their is one.

Thanks again for all of your help.

My email is ready to go, but your suggestion about calling Liz is making me rethink my strategy, if you want to call it that.  However, I see this going two possible ways:

[list type=decimal]
[*]If I call her first, she may defer once I disclose all of the details as to why I am calling her which I think is the only right thing to do;
[*]I send my aforementioned email to the Senior Sales Rep in Delaware and respectfully request that he hand me off to Liz if he wants to make the sale.
[/list]

I think that the latter approach may be the correct one.

As to the e-shop sales prices:
Hammer K3 79x48 $5390 (reduced from $8119.90)
Hammer N4400 $2690 (no price reduction found)

With S/H that looks like a $10K price tag.

Thanks again for your suggestions.

 

[patriot]

If you are or become truly fed up, you might consider SCMI/Minimax.  If so get in touch with Sam Blasco.  If you are processing logs you will likely be happier with the MM16 or MM20 than the N4400.  The MM series saws are built by Centauro in Italy and are heavier than the X10 series Felder saws (similar to the X40 series) and heavier than the ACM built Laguna, all of those saws are a step up from the N series Hammer saws.  I always thought the N4400 was a good buy when you could get it for under $2k but much less of a deal now. 

I know less about the differences between the Hammer vs Minimax sliders.

Holy cow!  Where you been the last few days? [big grin]

I just found the Minimax website and am now watching a video with Sam showing off the MM16.  This may just solve the Hammer drama, for the bandsaw anyway.

Stay tuned. [smile]

 

[Scorpion]

Regarding your experience with the sales rep - I frequently need to remind myself to "assume positive intent".  Believe me, it's difficult at times but it really does work in your favor.

When you received the follow up consider the following - he had already typed up the follow-up email and never hit send.  I do it all the time at work.  Make me a bad person?  Nope, everyone gets busy, distracted by the boss...only to return to find your darn PC has been auto-restarted to apply a windows patch by the IT department.  He could have quickly hit send without proofreading out of embarrassment when he was reminded he never followed up?  Tried to send you a "contract" because he couldn't remember the true context of your previous engagement and figured it was for a quote and didn't want you to have to ask again because that might just make you more displeased.

I only share this angle because I believe I tend to more frequently fail to assume positive intent.  When I reflect I realize that, for the most part, the only thing I get out of those situations  is unhappiness which I occasionally then push onto someone else.  Rarely did it benefit anyone.  I can, on the other hand, remember dozens of times where I've been rewarded for being nice or friendly - a drink on the house, a discount when one wasn't actually available, a freebie here and there. 

I say give the dude a break, smile at him through the phone, and see what happens next.  If you do you might just be helping me out since there's a good chance I'm the next one he'll be talking to. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Guilty as charged. 

In all honesty, I did consider the fact that his sent email may have been composed three days earlier and not been sent for whatever reason.  I'll buy that.  But, I would also assume that any rep (who wants to be successful) should keep a 'file' of some sort on each actual/potential customer so as to serve him better and keep the rep from making a fool of himself in the future.  Morgan noted earlier (in this thread) that a Felder rep mentioned  "I was speaking to Mike and he told me you were wanting to upgrade your slider...".  Morgan had no idea who this Mike was, which underscores my point. 

I could continue making assumptions, but I'd be spinning my wheels.  However, your assumption was a good one, but man - I have never suffered fools gladly, moreso when I am ready to purchase something from them. 

Lastly, I will add that this makes me ponder that if they are making it difficult before I purchase from them what can I expect after I make the purchase and need assistance?

I appreciate your comments.

Valid points, all of them.  I tend to have more confidence in a product when the purchasing and delivery experience is pristine.  Companies that have messy showroom floors, poorly designed websites, and train-wreck phone systems do lose business even if they have sought after products.  In this day and age businesses have ceased to exist for more trivial shortcomings.

As the years pass by I've found myself having more responsibilities and less time outside of them.  Time in the shop for me is, or needs to be, therapeutic.  Buying tools is an extension of that activity for me so added frustration or stress becomes even less desirable and as the dollar amount climbs, so does the reward or consequence of the activity. 

They say an happy customer may tell a friend about his experience but an unhappy customer will tell 10.  Real bummer for Hammer/Felder.  I was on the verge of ordering a planer but now I think I'll try a little harder to look around and find some alternate choices to consider as well.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk