How square is square and how much is the difference's worth?

I

irvin00

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Apr 20, 2009
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I see carpenter squares from Lee Valley, Woodpeckers, Lie-Nielsen, etc. They all look beautifully made and cost a lot - while a humble Empire square from Home Depot costs 5 times less. I have no doubt that (odds are) the expensive ones are more accurate - even though most buyers are not in a position to verify the manufacturer's claim and can only rely on the high price to alleviate their fears. But how much more accurate are they and does it make any significant difference in the real world? Are we woodworkers getting fleeced in our (sometimes ridiculous) quest for precision? (not pointing fingers at anyone - I've been a sucker on occasion).
 
Depends on what you're building and how accurate you need to be. I've been building paint grade built-ins, and an Empire carpenters square and one of the plastic HD speed squares are just fine for me. If I was building high end furniture with veneers, inlays, dovetailed drawers, etc., I may have the need for greater precision, and therefore the need for a $90 square.

I think for some it's just the prestige of saying they have such things- I'm not one to waste money just to keep up with the Joneses. 
 
It really depends on what kind of work you plan on doing with the different squares and the accuracy you demand.  You can always purchase a very accurate CNC machined square and use it as a reference for the lower priced models to make sure you got a decent one off the rack.  I think that would be quicker than penciling the outline of the off the shelf square and repositioning to see if it matches in the opposite direction, doing this for multiple squares to find one you're happy with.
 
A square is one of the fundamental tools.  If you cant mark a square line then you are not going to cut a square line.  From there it all goes wrong.
If you are only doing site work like house bashing then the cheaper ones will do you just fine.  Finer work or bench work then an accurate square is a must.

I use Moore & Wright engineers squares at the bench with an assortment of marking knifes & scalpels.  Any mistakes with these then its down to me !!

Woodguy.
 
This question comes up often and usually sparks a fierce debate, sorta like "Which is the true religion?".

Since fools rush in, here's my two cents worth.

Practically, a good test when buying a square is to put it up against a straight edge of a board or whatever, draw a crisp line with a fine leaded mechanical pencil, flip the square over and draw a second line on top of the first.  If the two lines diverge, keep looking for a square square.

How square do things have to be - that's mostly personal.  My own view is not to fret too much about a cut that doesn't fit onto anything else, say the end of a tabletop.  But when that cut or that setup will influence the fit of a glue joint it matters.  It matters a lot if that cut or setup will influence many more - for instance, I'm pretty anal about making my jigs dead square or setting fences dead square.  

I'm not a cabinetmaker, but I would think its way easier to fit doors and drawers when the carcass is good and square. [big grin]
 
woodguy7 said:
A square is one of the fundamental tools.  If you cant mark a square line then you are not going to cut a square line.  From there it all goes wrong.
If you are only doing site work like house bashing then the cheaper ones will do you just fine.  Finer work or bench work then an accurate square is a must.

I use Moore & Wright engineers squares at the bench with an assortment of marking knifes & scalpels.  Any mistakes with these then its down to me !!

Woodguy.
Click to expand...

Is this how you operate?  Picture from the wood's perspective.

 
I agree with Jesse and Woodguy; depends on what you are doing.  Drywall work can tolerate a lot of gaps (easier to tape & mud!) but when you get to things like dovetail joinery, which side of a fine pencil line can make the difference between a too-tight joint and a too-loose joint.  There, a good reference is a must; granted, you don't use a square to mark dovetails, but if the crosscut ends of drawer sides aren't accurately 90º, the error catches up to you 4 sides later and you have a skew drawer.

A square slightly out of square might work well in some instances where the line you are marking is relatively short as the error at the far end is likely less than the error I'll make cutting it.  But if you are cross-cutting a 27" wide panel on your MFT, a slight slight error off square can easily become 1/8" off at the far end.  Matter? Depends on what you are doing with it.

Easier to have one square that is square than to have some you use for really accurate stuff and others for square-enough work.
 
PaulMarcel said:
I agree with Jesse and Woodguy; depends on what you are doing.  Drywall work can tolerate a lot of gaps (easier to tape & mud!) but when you get to things like dovetail joinery, which side of a fine pencil line can make the difference between a too-tight joint and a too-loose joint.  There, a good reference is a must; granted, you don't use a square to mark dovetails, but if the crosscut ends of drawer sides aren't accurately 90º, the error catches up to you 4 sides later and you have a skew drawer.

A square slightly out of square might work well in some instances where the line you are marking is relatively short as the error at the far end is likely less than the error I'll make cutting it.  But if you are cross-cutting a 27" wide panel on your MFT, a slight slight error off square can easily become 1/8" off at the far end.  Matter? Depends on what you are doing with it.

Easier to have one square that is square than to have some you use for really accurate stuff and others for square-enough work.
Click to expand...

Paul-Marcel,

I meant if someone is doing any mix of framing and finish/cabinetry/furniture making work, then multiple squares with varying degrees of accuracy would be fine.  For instance, my 24" framing square doesn't need to have a 0.0005" accuracy per foot for framing work.
 
I dropped my Marple's trial one off the bench onto the concrete floor it landed the worst way it could and was no longer square.

so I popped it in an envelope and sent it to Marple's. about three days later it arrived back with a nice note stating it had been reset and was good to go.
and if it happened again just send it back to them.
excellent service
 
Ken Nagrod said:
I meant if someone is doing any mix of framing and finish/cabinetry/furniture making work, then multiple squares with varying degrees of accuracy would be fine.  For instance, my 24" framing square doesn't need to have a 0.0005" accuracy per foot for framing work.
Click to expand...

Oh agree with you there... sorry, I was thinking of squares for tool setup, joinery layout, small stuff.  I still use an Empire drywall 'square' someone stepped on :)
 
irvin00 said:
I see carpenter squares from Lee Valley, Woodpeckers, Lie-Nielsen, etc. They all look beautifully made and cost a lot - while a humble Empire square from Home Depot costs 5 times less. I have no doubt that (odds are) the expensive ones are more accurate - even though most buyers are not in a position to verify the manufacturer's claim and can only rely on the high price to alleviate their fears. But how much more accurate are they and does it make any significant difference in the real world? Are we woodworkers getting fleeced in our (sometimes ridiculous) quest for precision? (not pointing fingers at anyone - I've been a sucker on occasion).
Click to expand...

Well that answer is depends!   I have an empire had it for years.  I also have a Starrat framing square 20 bucks I think.  I also have a three piece precision set that I paid 50 bucks for that I use to check my cheap ones against.   If it works I guess id does not matter.  I have a few of the woodpecker devices and they are good.  I like them for the laser engraved markings and I know they will be good no matter what and the marking rules are fantastic.   I have a neet little starret cross square (can't think of the proper name) that I probable paid too much for, but the same thing could be said for hand planes a stanley will get the job done, but Lie-nielsen in the hand is so much more pleasurable.  Add festool to that list.  A Black n decker will cut a 90 on a board but would you rather use that or a TS55 and a rail.  That last question does not need an answer.   Have a good one!
 
Accuracy  and squareness is the Holy Grail of Woodworking:

As you watch this substitute the word "square" for the spoken word "shrubbery", and
the word "accuracy" for the word "Ni".

Accuracy

Enjoy!

Pedro
 
Peter said:
Accuracy  and squareness is the Holy Grail of Woodworking
Click to expand...

Agreed.

But how much is the difference (in accuracy) between a regular and a "premium" square? Is it as big as the difference in price? That's the real question.
 
irvin00 said:
Peter said:
Accuracy  and squareness is the Holy Grail of Woodworking
Click to expand...

Agreed.

But how much is the difference (in accuracy) between a regular and a "premium" square? Is it as big as the difference in price? That's the real question.
Click to expand...

Well what would you label a "regular" square and "premium" square?  For me, I'd label a regular square something $30 or less that's available at a lumberyard or big box store, something like an old standard framing square (any size) or Speed Square.  Premium to me is something like a Woodpeckers square or Incra square that is made to meet high tolerances for accuracy with the accuracy stated.  Holding that accuracy during normal use is also an important aspect.
 
Ken Nagrod said:
irvin00 said:
Peter said:
Accuracy  and squareness is the Holy Grail of Woodworking
Click to expand...

Agreed.

But how much is the difference (in accuracy) between a regular and a "premium" square? Is it as big as the difference in price? That's the real question.
Click to expand...

Well what would you label a "regular" square and "premium" square?  For me, I'd label a regular square something $30 or less that's available at a lumberyard or big box store, something like an old standard framing square (any size) or Speed Square.  Premium to me is something like a Woodpeckers square or Incra square that is made to meet high tolerances for accuracy with the accuracy stated.  Holding that accuracy during normal use is also an important aspect.
Click to expand...
I think that the OP wants to know how acurate are the cheaper square as oppose to the more expensive one.Does the price difference really makes a big difference?
I can only say that whatever you use,if it gives you square cuts then go for it.
 
Sorry, I was trying in interject some humor.  In my mind, like those of others, it depends on what you are doing.

Framing - a framing square tested by flipping it

Cabinets - honestly probably the same - much of the work is hidden

Furniture - a preium square like Ken said.

I don't build furniture so I don't have a premium square for that.  I do have a bridge city small square for doing small things.

I have an accurate framing square that I use to test my MFT/3.  Tha works for cross cutting cabinet sides for me and when I put them together the diagonals match and the adjacent cabinet fits well.

I still have to match my cuts to the pencil lines.  That is the biggest source of unacceptable accuracy in my work flow.

Peter
 
Peter said:
Sorry, I was trying in interject some humor.  In my mind, like those of others, it depends on what you are doing.

Framing - a framing square tested by flipping it

Cabinets - honestly probably the same - much of the work is hidden

Furniture - a preium square like Ken said.

I don't build furniture so I don't have a premium square for that.  I do have a bridge city small square for doing small things.

I have an accurate framing square that I use to test my MFT/3.  Tha works for cross cutting cabinet sides for me and when I put them together the diagonals match and the adjacent cabinet fits well.

I still have to match my cuts to the pencil lines.  That is the biggest source of unacceptable accuracy in my work flow.

Peter
Click to expand...

Well!  All I can say about that is "Ni! Ni! Ni! Ni!"
Thanks for the clip - those guys are great.  I think my favorite is still the "Spam Spam Spam Spam Spam ...." skit.
 
Wait give me time I'm sure I can tie to Young Frankenstein for a laugh...give me time...... Oh..never minded going downstairs to and tossing it in the DVD.

I do have to say I enjoy the humor here.

Cheers,
Steve
 
The difference between a Starrett and Empire square is the same as a Lie Nielsen and Groz plane.  Or at least comparable.  Yes, the Starrett (and Lie Nielsen) comes accurate and ready to use, but the Empire (or Groz can be tuned to work well too.  By filing the shoulder that the square's blade (ruler) rests against, you can change the angle and make it as accurate as you like.  The other differences you will find are the fit and finish - crisper machining, easier-to-read incraments, etc.  Oh, and I believe the stock of a combination square can be either cast or forged.
 
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