How to remove heat from LED’s trapped inside a frame

[smorgasbord]

I suppose the client would prefer a dimmer mounted in an ordinary switch box on the wall. Is that possible?

Yes, but you'll likely need a different transformer.

I got a smaller version of this one, and it dims smoothly with an old triac dimmer:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0BJV55X4G

Here's that in a different housing:https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BYMX28JJ

How many feet are you using that you need 350 watts? I'm using a 120 watt version for my 22 feet without issue. Yes, you want to have some headroom, but 350 watts is a lot of feet. You might want to feed from both ends if that's possible.

 

[Cheese]

The Switchex dimmer is perfect for this application as Diode LED supports it. I've had one for the last 6 years and it is sweet. Just make sure it's available in 24V ...I installed a 12V unit.

Whoops noticed you changed LED suppliers...errr...agh....now you're kind of on your own as that 12 year Diode LED warranty has pretty much vanished.

So, what kind of warranty do these new LED's have?

Monetary issues kind of become secondary & tertiary considerations when I'm confronted with a project as large as this one. Let's say that within 2 years there is a problem, who's going to service this account?
The LED manufacturer?
The driver manufacturer?
The glass manufacturer?
The metal fabricator?
Or the designer?

Better yet, 5 years from now, who's on the hook when several of these businesses are probably toes-up?

Michael, here's the Switchex website.
https://www.diodeled.com/switchex.html

 

[Michael Kellough]

Maybe this kind of transformer?

I ordered these cheap LED’s because the lumens and watts per foot are close to what I expect we’d actually use, and I can get it fast. Seems like you have to buy Diode Led stuff from a dealer so it will take a little time.

The two channel version of this transformer has a 92 watt capacity per channel and if I split the LED’s in the frame in two that’s just 52 watts per half.

Off to check out the other transformer.

 

[Michael Kellough]

I suppose the client would prefer a dimmer mounted in an ordinary switch box on the wall. Is that possible?

Yes, but you'll likely need a different transformer.

I got a smaller version of this one, and it dims smoothly with an old triac dimmer:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0BJV55X4G

Here's that in a different housing:https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BYMX28JJ

How many feet are you using that you need 350 watts? I'm using a 120 watt version for my 22 feet without issue. Yes, you want to have some headroom, but 350 watts is a lot of feet. You might want to feed from both ends if that's possible.

Based on what I was reading about (the wrong kind of) transformers it see the more the wattage being consumed the more likely the cooling fan will spin, and people say the fans are noisy. So I thought, a higher capacity unit doesn’t cost that much more so..

The BTF FCOB stuff is 14watts per meter and we’ll use 24 feet so that’s about 102 watts.

 

[Michael Kellough]

The Switchex dimmer is perfect for this application as Diode LED supports it. I've had one for the last 6 years and it is sweet. Just make sure it's available in 24V ...I installed a 12V unit.

Whoops noticed you changed LED suppliers...errr...agh....now you're kind of on your own as that 12 year Diode LED warranty has pretty much vanished.

So, what kind of warranty do these new LED's have?

Monetary issues kind of become secondary & tertiary considerations when I'm confronted with a project as large as this one. Let's say that within 2 years there is a problem, who's going to service this account?
The LED manufacturer?
The driver manufacturer?
The glass manufacturer?
The metal fabricator?
Or the designer?

Better yet, 5 years from now, who's on the hook when several of these businesses are probably toes-up?

Michael, here's the Switchex website.
https://www.diodeled.com/switchex.html

The Switchex looks perfect, but is it strong enough? With the BRF FCOB strip, 24 ft pulls 102 watts, at or above the listed capacity of the Switchex. It would work if dimmed a little? Or we’d just have to use a lower watt per foot led strip?

Diode Led has two wattages in the similar Streamlite product, 300, and 400 lumens per foot, or 3.3 and 5 watts per foot. 24 feet of the 3.3w/ft would pull 80 watts so the 100 watt Switex should work? But the spec sheet says max run of 20 feet so maybe I could just split it into two 12 foot runs powered by the same Switchex?

I got interested in the Streamlite product because it eliminates the possible need for a diffusing cover. But just read that the warranty is only 7 years compared to the 12 years on the Valent X. Gotta get some of this stuf in to test.

 

[Packard]

I went to a trade show about 15 years ago, and a manufacturer was showing a mock up of car lighting (interior and exterior) using fiber optics.  There was just one bulb for all the interior lights and one for all the running lights.

That never came to pass, so I guess they ran into stumbling blocks (like how and where to run the fiber optics).

But there are sheets of plastic that edge-light, so that becomes a “maybe” in my mind.  One bulb, exterior to the actual installation, sounds like a solution.  In my mind the issues are resolvable, but my “resolvable” issues in my mind frequently turn out to be not resolvable in real life. 

But, just a thought…

 

[Cheese]

I went to a trade show about 15 years ago, and a manufacturer was showing a mock up of car lighting (interior and exterior) using fiber optics.  There was just one bulb for all the interior lights and one for all the running lights.

That never came to pass, so I guess they ran into stumbling blocks (like how and where to run the fiber optics).

I'm sure that's what RR uses on their Spectre...installing 5000 individual LEDs along with the wiring would be impossible. According to RR "The Starlight Headliner & Starlight Doors incorporate 4,796 softly illuminated ‘stars’."

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

 

[Michael Kellough]

Waiting for questions sent to Diode Led to be answered. “Tech support” is really just “info”, which is really just someone reading stuff from the same website the public has access to.

I asked what is the spacing of LED’s in the 200 lumen/ft version of Valent X.
They don’t know. “They look pretty close together in the photo.”
I ask, doesn’t that printing on the edge of the strip that says “Valent X 800” mean that is a photo of the 800 lumen/ft version?
“I guess so.”

Anyway, the Switchex driver-dimmer solves two vital problems so elegantly that I’m leaning towards simply limiting the wattage of the led strip to whatever the Switchex can handle, even if it means using the “bare bulb” Valent X product. 200 lumens per foot x 24 = 4800 lumens. That’s seems like quite a lot of light for the perimeter of a mirror. We’ll see…

We have to make a mockup of the project to really tell if bare LED’s are unsatisfactory, compared to adding a diffuser or using Streamlite. The LED’s will be nearly 1-1/2” inches back from the ends of the cast glass elements so that might be good as is.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Re RR Spectra, fiber optics makes it possible but there was still a big difficult problem to terminate all those fiber ends (or whatever they connected to) in the same plane. Would be easier if the headliner and the other panels were made of plastic but RR would that would they?

Looks very nice. Probably also programmed to ramp up to full brightness when the car is switched off as peeps gather their things to depart.

 

[squall_line]

Re: RR Spectra, I know on the earlier Koenigsegg supercars, some of the lighting was done with LEDs behind solid billets that were only micro-pierced with holes to appear solid while dark but light when lit.  The RR Spectre likely uses fiber optics.  As with most luxury features, you can get a similar effect for your own car from all sorts of knockoff sellers online now.

Back to the mirror, if you end up needing a diffuser, one possible trick to limit hotspots is to actually mount the LEDs facing away from the mirror with a wraparound diffuser, but there may or may not be enough depth for that.

I got the idea from this review of a Govee light strip (jump to 9:03 if it doesn't start there):
=543s

 

[Packard]

Re RR Spectra, fiber optics makes it possible but there was still a big difficult problem to terminate all those fiber ends (or whatever they connected to) in the same plane. Would be easier if the headliner and the other panels were made of plastic but RR would that would they?

Looks very nice. Probably also programmed to ramp up to full brightness when the car is switched off as peeps gather their things to depart.

Actually, I was thinking of something along these lines:

Not only can you transmit light along the edges, you can light up anything that is engraved in the plastic.  TAP Plastics sells the stuff.  I’ve used them and they are a good vendor (but never the cheapest).


This guy is doing more of what I had in mind.  Apparently custom cars require elaborate lighting.  We will recognize the tools he is using and the fact that he has no dust collection on his router table and apparently is breathing in all the resin dust. 

Skip ahead to minute 2:00. 

 

[Michael Kellough]

Last Monday I flew out of cold and rainy New York towards Santa Barbara, California, known as the “American Riviera” because of the south facing coastal mountains that back the town. Big difference!

I went there to measure the niche that this big mirror project will be installed into.

[attachimg=1]

I made this story pole with stuff from McMaster.

[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
I knew the approximate size of the opening so I made an extra steep bevel on the ends to make sure it fit into the corner. Thin aluminum sheet limited the point from going too far into the soft stuff.

After the diagonals were done I added a 1 inch square tip to measure the width. Since the carpenter made the verticals consistently parallel within +/- 1/32” it’s surprising that he made the right side 7/8” shorter than the left.

[attachimg=4]

I‘ve been nervous about supplying power to the led strips in the frame. Turns out billionaires have electricians. I just need to tell him how many volts and watts I want, delivered to where. And they reserved a channel on the Lutron programmable lighting control for the mirror frame’s LED’s.

 

[Michael Kellough]

To measure the arch I used two Bosch FSN1100 rails and an FSN800 cut in half and propped into position and then read the distances to the fabric (compressed) off a little rule I made for the purpose. I find these guide rails stiffer and straighter than the Festool versions, nevertheless, afterwards, when drawing the arch in cad I made another arch 1/16” high and 99” long to subtract from the on site arch measurements.

[attachimg=1]

To measure verticals I used Veritas diy story pole fittings and added a bit of fine scale to read measurements directly instead of measuring the stick itself.

 

[smorgasbord]

Turns out billionaires have electricians. I just need to tell him how many volts and watts I want, delivered to where. And they reserved a channel on the Lutron programmable lighting control for the mirror frame’s LED’s.

You also probably need to discuss dimming compatibility. If they're using a Lutron, they might be able to support what's called 0-10V dimming, in which case you should use the appropriate LED supply to give your customers the smoothest dimming possible, and not worry about triac compatibility, etc.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Turns out billionaires have electricians. I just need to tell him how many volts and watts I want, delivered to where. And they reserved a channel on the Lutron programmable lighting control for the mirror frame’s LED’s.

You also probably need to discuss dimming compatibility. If they're using a Lutron, they might be able to support what's called 0-10V dimming, in which case you should use the appropriate LED supply to give your customers the smoothest dimming possible, and not worry about triac compatibility, etc.

Are you talking about the power supply or suggesting that there are different kinds of LED’s?

 

[Cheese]

0-10V dimming is usually associated with commercial lighting as it was created for dimming fluorescent fixtures in retail establishments. That's the reason I never pursued it even though it is the best method to produce a linear illumination curve especially when using LEDs. I also think the wiring needs to be shielded for best results.

 

[smorgasbord]

Are you talking about the power supply or suggesting that there are different kinds of LED’s?

Power supply. Your billionaire's electrician should know about it.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Are you talking about the power supply or suggesting that there are different kinds of LED’s?

Power supply. Your billionaire's electrician should know about it.

I'm happy to leave it to him.

 

[Michael Kellough]

A week ago I took some tools to the glass studio and cut out the plywood backing for the mirror. Actually made two so the metal worker can have a template for forming the brass frame. If I went in today it would have cost me an extra $9 thanks to the new Congestion Pricing scheme. That’s in addition to the $14 Verrazano bridge toll and $14 Hugh L. Carey (Battery) Tunnel toll and $30 parking lot fee.  [tongue]

We used grade A Baltic birch in full 4 x 8 sheets. That stuff is hard to cut with a fine tooth blade but the edges look great afterward. I used the cordless Mafell track saw (MT55 18M) and by mistake only brought a 5.5 amp battery. (This saw only uses one) The 8 amp battery weighs exactly the same as the 5.5 version and in Mafell’s wrap you can only tell the difference by looking at the finely engraved wh mark right next to the contacts. Barely finished before the battery gave out.

Had to add nearly 2” to each end and used the same telescoping poles I measured the site with as trammels to layout the asymmetrical rectangle. Vintage Starrett trammels worked great. I used the ink cartridge from the finest marking pen I have, a PILOT Hi-Tec-C Gel pen at .25mm.

Used the new Bosch cordless jigsaw (GST18V-60BCN) that does not allow bevel cutting to cut the arch. It did consistently cut square but the fine tooth blade was more easily deflected left and right than I’d like. Kinda like loose steering linkage. When I rough cut the arch for the second panel using a fast cutting blade there was less of the left/right wiggles.

We used the shop’s router and flush trim bit make the second panel arch match the first but the bit had been sharpened and it left about .01” more than it should. I might have to re trim in a few weeks.

My part of this project might be over. It was originally just a design project that grew to include researching led lighting. With advice from you guys I think I came up with a good plan but it seems like my client is back to wanting to keep that part as simple as possible. I’m sure what he chooses will work fine for a while but no one knows if it will last long enough. On the other hand, the homeowner might tire of the thing and want it gone. (It’s not something I’d want in my house and I designed it [tongue])

I’ve turned in my file for printing a full size template for cutting all the glass shapes. For the next few weeks all hands at the glass studio will cutting (sawing with diamond blades) and polishing. Another cad file has been sent to the plate glass mirror shop and the metal shop has drawings and a wood template for the frame. My part might be over but I do plan to go see how the cutting and fitting is done and I want to see how it all goes together when the frame is delivered. And there is still a small chance I’ll be sent to supervise the installation.