HVLP Turbine/Professional Use in Colorado

[Allyson]

Hi.  I am seeking intel from any owners of professional-quality (4-6 stage) HVLP turbine systems in Colorado.  Scott B. is aware of my issue, so I am awaiting his expert advice 

Anyway, I recently purchased a 5-stage Apollo Precision 9.5 psi.  I live in the metro-Denver area.  It never reached more than 7.4 psi.  I borrowed a demo 1050 VR (the older model), and it actually reached a bit higher psi, but nothing to warrant the price for the machine.  After literally checking everything (plugs, location, hose connections, you name it) it came down to altitude.  The machine simply loses psi in this altitude. 

I am a professional finisher, but a smaller woman.  I need to be mobile with my equipment.  I typically spray high-quality lacquers, stains, etc., but have the occasion where I need to spray acrylic BM and SW paints.  I need a high-end furniture/cabinet finish that is completely smooth to the touch. Granted, I do some fine sanding with my projects, but am definitely interested only in high-end equipment that I can move myself. 

If you are in Colorado, or know of equipment that works in true high altitude (Apollo says that it adjusts automatically for altitude and barometric pressure, but clearly this does not mean Colorado), please let me know.  I need to get new equipment soon, and this issue is driving me nuts (as Scott knows).

Thanks much.  I also don't mean to bad mouth Apollo.  The spraying is beautiful but I just don't want to pay that much money for something that doesn't have the full power in my geography.

Allyson

 

[tjbnwi]

Try a small pressure pot. The turbine should have enough CFM to run the air cap. Use a Rolair Jc-10 (small, light and very quite) to pressurize the pot. 15 psi @ 65º F moves SW Super Paint from pot to air cap really well.

I use a 2.5 gallon pot, they do make smaller ones. 

Tom

 

[Allyson]

Thanks, Tom.

I will look up the Rolair.  I really do not understand how the turbine would work with a pressure pot, but will read about this.  I'd love to be able to use a gun without having the paint cup attached, and to be able to have the increased pressure.  I do know that, ultimately, a compressor system would be best, but I just can't lift a unit at a job site, and I don't know of any that are light-weight enough for my needs. 

Again, thank you.  I appreciate your input. 

 

[greg mann]

Try a small pressure pot. The turbine should have enough CFM to run the air cap. Use a Rolair Jc-10 (small, light and very quite) to pressurize the pot. 15 psi @ 65º F moves SW Super Paint from pot to air cap really well.

I use a 2.5 gallon pot, they do make smaller ones. 

Tom

IIUC, the Rolair provides the pressure to feed the paint and the HVLP system moves it out the nozzle and on to the intended surface???? What I know about spray finishing wouldn't be enouugh to clog the smallest orifice. Every time you pros start talking systems I get lost about the third post. I am hoping to learn enough thru osmosis but so far.... [unsure]

 

[tjbnwi]

In the picture is the Fuji Q4 turbine, Emglo compressor (normally I use the Jc-10, must have been on a job), Qual Craft pressure pot.

The pot has 3 ball valves, because this pot has a power mixer there is a knob valve for the mixers air motor.

The valve with the black hose is for shutting off fluid to the gun.

The valve with the black pipe cap is to feed air to a conversion type compressor driver gun. I use the turbine for air cap air, this port is not used in this configuration.

Valve above the regulator knob shuts off all air to the pot.

The round knob with the clear hose is the air motor control valve.

The small round device on the left is a valve to release pot pressure.

There is also an automatic pressure relief to bleed the pot incase of over pressurization.

The blue hose on the turbine supplies air to the cap air. The air cap is the horned piece on the front of the gun.

I run the turbine off a remote control switch.

How it all comes together and the benefits of this system;

A bottom feed gun is a must for this system. Gravity and side feeds do not work for many reason. Biggest being the fluid hose may not fit on the gun.

Fluid is placed in the pot, if you're using a 1 gallon pail you can place the pail in the pot, saves clean up. My pot has a removable stainless steel liner, clean up is quick and easy even when I have to fill the pot.

Remove the cup and cup holder from the gun. This should leave you with a 3/8" female flared fitting. This is where the hose will connect.

The turbine connects to the gun in the normal manner.

Once the hoses are connected, fill the pot and secure the lid.

Connect the air supply to the pot.

Now the tricky part-adjusting the air pressure in the pot. At 65ºF shooting Kem Aqua +, I run 10-12 pounds in the pot with a 25' hose and a 0.08mm air cap set. Colder I need a pound or two more, warmer a little less pressure. More pressure than necessary to get the fluid smoothly to the air cap is a bad thing. To much pressure and the fluid flies past the air cap before it is broken up and properly fanned. To little pressure and the fluid sputters onto the surface.

SW Super Paint requires 15 PSI @ 65º F, with a 1.8 mm air cap set.

The above you learn through trial and error. No two finishes are alike, you have to learn the ones you use. Just like selecting the proper air cap set.

Clean up is very easy, remove the product, add water, secure the lid, pressurize the pot, you do not need the turbine on. Open the needle all the way, pull the trigger returning the fluid in the hose to the original product. Once you see thinning product finish flushing into a bucket.

Major benefits are using higher viscosity products without thinning, not having to stop to fill the cup.

A video of 3 doors of the 480 I had to spray both stain and finish on. The gun is the Fuji T-70.



All 3 of my Fuji guns are set up for 3M PPS also. Thats another great system.

Tom

 

[Allyson]

Tom, thanks for the excellent intel on your system.  And, for the video.  I did look up the Rolair, and I also now understand more about how the turbine and pressure pot work together. 

At the end of the day, at least when I am on a job site, I have to be realistic about my limitations with weight.  I'd like a system for my shop, and also one for mobility. But that's not in the money cards right now.  As such, I think that I am going to get the Titan Capspray 115 and can add the gravity gun/PPS system, and also a 2 quart pressure pot.  I don't do houses full of trim, etc., but mostly cabinetry and furniture, so I should be good with this system.  I hope.  I hurt my back a few years ago, so am very cautious about lifting too much weight. 

I haven't bought the Capspray yet, as I am still ruminating. 

Again, thanks much.

 

[greg mann]

Yes, Tom, thanks so much. Having pros like you and Scott to call upon is priceless. There are certainly others, like Tim as another that comes to mind, and I don't want to slight anyone but finishing is really an art that requires practice, study, and more practice. Malcolm Gladwell would say 10,000 hours is about right. What you guys teach us will help cut into that time hurdle at a nice clip.

Now if anyone needs help machining ductile iron....... [wink]

 

[Allyson]

Tom, I have learned so much for reading threads like the FOG and other groups provide.  I also read a lot of books, take classes to learn new things and to stay current, and practice all the time.  It also helps to love the work.  I wish that more people understood what it takes to do beautiful, rather than typical work.  Some of the pros around are amazing.

 

[tiralie]

It never reached more than 7.4 psi. 

Allyson:
Just curious how you measured the psi from the gun or from the turbine.

FYI, here is a picture of the set up I was using yesterday. The Gun is an XPC connected to a C. A. Technologies 2 Quart Bandit with the Senco 1010 compressor. The Senco 1010 is a very light easy to handle compressor and can easily keep up to the demands of spraying high viscosity coatings such as the Kem Aqua white. If you follow the lines from the gun you can see the set up.

[attachimg=1]

I was spraying the inside of these cabinets with Sherwin Williams Kem Aqua White

[attachimg=2]

You can't really see much, but here's what it looked like when I was done spraying 2 coats.

[attachimg=3]

 

[slodat]

Tim, I've been eyeballing the Q4 Gold with PPS. From the looks of your stuff I'm on the right path. Thanks for sharing!!

 

[mastercabman]

It never reached more than 7.4 psi. 

Allyson:
Just curious how you measured the psi from the gun or from the turbine.

The machine(5 stage turbine)
Has a digital display that shows the psi
I think you can also adjust it

 

[tiralie]

It never reached more than 7.4 psi. 

Allyson:
Just curious how you measured the psi from the gun or from the turbine.

The machine(5 stage turbine)
Has a digital display that shows the psi
I think you can also adjust it

Thanks.
I should have been more specific and asked if she tested the pressure at the gun. Binks and C.A. Technologies make a gun air cap fitting for some of their guns that you can attach a gauge to, to test HVLP compliance, not sure Apollo has one or not. I would like to test my Fuji to see what pressure I am really getting at my gun after it travels through the regular and whip hose attachment.
Tim

 

[Maddie]

Tom, A wealth of hands-on substance in this thread, thank you. Maddie

 

[Allyson]

Hi all,

Honestly, I am so confused at this point.  Working with the company I purchased the Apollo Precision 5 from (awesome people in Wisconsin), we tested the psi at the gun and at the turbine.  The company also sent a demo model 1050VR (older model) and it performed a bit better than the new Precision.  The company and Apollo determined that my new unit was delivering less psi than it should...operating more like a 3 stage than a 5.  For the money (over 2k with everything), I couldn't justify keeping it when it was performing like the system I already had.

Unfortunately, in the midst of this whole thing, I sold my other turbine hvlp system, so now I have nothing and can't work. 

I am in situations where I use little paint, and I am in situations where I do cabinets and use much more paint.  When I say "little" paint, I truly mean that when I do samples I might be going through 8 ounces at a time. 

Anyway, the company in Wisconsin, and Apollo, believe that it's our altitude, and that there is nothing that could be done to increase the psi.  All I know is that all the measurements we did (per instructions from Apollo and the Wisconsin folks) were different than their readings. 

I just ordered a Titan Capspray 115 hvlp 6 stage, but haven't paid for it yet.  I have also kept the Apollo 7500 gun and the pps system to use as a second gun.  But, I continue to hear that I should be going the compressor/AAA route.  As I said, I am terribly confused and just know that my issues are that I have to be able to self-manage under 35 pounds of weight, I don't want to waste a lot of paint in tubes, and I spray both very small and larger quantities. 

This is why I've asked my husband to get involved, but he's not a painter and is very focused on the weight and inconvenience of the compressor, and using too much paint in cleaning, etc, versus the quality of the finish (user being another issue).

Thanks everyone. 

 

[robtonya]

We have been looking at a compressed nitrogen system at my work. I'm not sure if it would meet your portability needs though, but our system is more stable, and can even be heated. It's hard to describe, but it's like we needed a lower psi when using it. The salesman stated nitrogen comes out twice as fast as compressed air. Here's a link to a nitro therm company: http://www.eurosider.com/en/nitrotherm-spray/

Maybe you can read up on it, and see if there is a system that would work for you.

 

[robtonya]

I also love these guns: http://3mcollision.com/accuspraysystem
3m accuspray. They would be perfect for when you spray a small amount.

 

[tjbnwi]

With PPS 3 and 8 ounce liners are available.

Let us know how the 6 stage works out for you.

Other option is to use the Graco hand held fine finish gun for when you do a paint project.

Tom

 

[tiralie]

With PPS 3 and 8 ounce liners are available.

Yes, they are perfect for creating multiple samples. Just mix your paint, fill, spray, remove blow out the old color and pop on a new one.

Other option is to use the Graco hand held fine finish gun for when you do a paint project.

Tom:
I had the same thought but based on Allyson's (weight) concerns, that Graco unit may be too heavy and stressful on the wrist to hold, manipulate and spray for any length of time. Worth a try though.
Tim

 

[tjbnwi]

With PPS 3 and 8 ounce liners are available.

Yes, they are perfect for creating multiple samples. Just mix your paint, fill, spray, remove blow out the old color and pop on a new one.

Other option is to use the Graco hand held fine finish gun for when you do a paint project.

Tom:
I had the same thought but based on Allyson's (weight) concerns, that Graco unit may be too heavy and stressful on the wrist to hold, manipulate and spray for any length of time. Worth a try though.
Tim

There is a backpack for the hand helds now. Takes the weight of the fluid off the wrist. If she goes with a corded they're not that heavy.

With the compressor issue she could try a Senco 1010, maybe 20 pounds, will handle the pot easily.

Tom

 

[tiralie]

There is a backpack for the hand helds now. Takes the weight of the fluid off the wrist. If she goes with a corded they're not that heavy.

Forgot about that backpack...you're right it should make it easier...

With the compressor issue she could try a Senco 1010, maybe 20 pounds, will handle the pot easily.

Yes, that Senco 1010 or similar is the perfect companion for this setup. Even with the drop in pressure from all the turbines she should be able to spray all but the most viscous coatings.

I was using my MAC 700 but it's a pain to move around.
Tim