HVLP Turbine/Professional Use in Colorado

[Allyson]

Hi all,

OK, so I am intrigued by the Senco, and could lift it.  I've also already been using the PPS system, and it works well for my smaller samples.  I am not crazy about the larger container, but love the small size. 

I really am not stupid, though I know it must come across that I am because I now need someone to literally tell me what you think I would be best with.

None of you seem enthused by the Titan Capspray 115.  So, I am going to put that order on hold. 

Thanks for understanding my weight concerns...more the unit itself than the gun and accessories. Also, that I spray varying quantities (rarely more than a gallon at a time, and refilling doesn't bother me much).  I also use a wide variety of products from stains to thinner paints to top coats to BM Advance, etc.  I can't have a ton of overspray as I am often in lived-in homes (although I do a good job of site prep). I am less concerned about speed than I am with high-quality. 

I am not seeing a point in getting a turbine unit to power things if I can go the compressor route with a great gun or two. 

I apologize as I know that the equipment side of things comes easily to most of you.  To me, I am a painter who has used a turbine system pretty successfully for many years, but want to be sure to make the best decision that will carry me for a number of years. 

Any real specific "get this" would be helpful.  I am not looking for low price, just great stuff/solutions.

Again, I am most appreciative of you help/knowledge.

Allyson

 

[tiralie]

I am not seeing a point in getting a turbine unit to power things if I can go the compressor route with a great gun or two.

Allyson:
You will need to get/use a turbine to power your guns unless of course you are prepared to haul around a large compressor capable of generating enough CFM that most HVLP guns require.

Combining the high CFM of a turbine with a small compressor and a pressure pot allows you to spray a multitude of coatings without having to use a large and heavy compressor.
Tim

 

[Allyson]

Thanks, Tim.

So, If I am understanding things correctly, the turbine is what will best power and atomize the paint at the gun if I can't get a larger compressor to do so because of my weight/mobility limitations.  But, I would need an additional (though small) compressor to push enough pressure to the paint pot since turbines can't always do so? 

If this is the case, the Titan Capspray 115 is a 6 stage turbine that comes with its own gun.  An adaptor can be used for the PPS system at the gun.  It also has a pressure pot/small compressor attachment, I believe, which would enable me to not have the paint at the gun.  I'm not sure if this is the best set up, but I can research things better now.

I was heading up to CA Technology tomorrow, but am expecting that the compressors for the type of gun I'd need to use may still be too heavy.  The guy said I would need at least a 1.5 HP that pushes at least 6 CFM.

Now it finally makes sense to me why I'd need a compressor, turbine and pressure pot system.  Took a while, but I get it. 

Again, thanks!

 

[tiralie]

So, If I am understanding things correctly, the turbine is what will best power and atomize the paint at the gun if I can't get a larger compressor to do so because of my weight/mobility limitations. 

Yes.

But, I would need an additional (though small) compressor to push enough pressure to the paint pot since turbines can't always do so? 

Yes and even more so for you since the elevation reduces the overall pressure any turbine can generate. The pressure from the compressor into the pressure pot up to the gun will augment the capacity of the turbine to atomize the coating. Some coatings need to be atomized more than others irrespective of their viscosity.

If this is the case, the Titan Capspray 115 is a 6 stage turbine that comes with its own gun.  An adapter can be used for the PPS system at the gun.  It also has a pressure pot/small compressor attachment, I believe, which would enable me to not have the paint at the gun. 

Apollo makes a similar system with a cart.

I was heading up to CA Technology tomorrow, but am expecting that the compressors for the type of gun I'd need to use may still be too heavy.  The guy said I would need at least a 1.5 HP that pushes at least 6 CFM.

Those 1.5HP compressors are heavy. I have a 2HP Bosch that is simalar to the specs on the CA Technologies Go systems and I am 6'2" and 210 lbs. and don't like hauling it around if I don't have to.
Those CA Technologies guns are sexy. I have two H2O guns and a Lynx 200 HVLP.

Again, thanks!

You're welcome, glad I could help. If you have more questions don't hesitate to post as others may want to know. I am sure either Scott, Tom or many others will help if I can't.

I have learned so much on this site I find it difficult to not contribute something if I can.
Tim

 

[tjbnwi]

So, If I am understanding things correctly, the turbine is what will best power and atomize the paint at the gun if I can't get a larger compressor to do so because of my weight/mobility limitations. 

Yes.

But, I would need an additional (though small) compressor to push enough pressure to the paint pot since turbines can't always do so? 

Yes and even more so for you since the elevation reduces the overall pressure any turbine can generate. The pressure from the compressor into the pressure pot up to the gun will augment the capacity of the turbine to atomize the coating. Some coatings need to be atomized more than others irrespective of their viscosity.

If this is the case, the Titan Capspray 115 is a 6 stage turbine that comes with its own gun.  An adapter can be used for the PPS system at the gun.  It also has a pressure pot/small compressor attachment, I believe, which would enable me to not have the paint at the gun. 

Apollo makes a similar system with a cart.

I was heading up to CA Technology tomorrow, but am expecting that the compressors for the type of gun I'd need to use may still be too heavy.  The guy said I would need at least a 1.5 HP that pushes at least 6 CFM.

Those 1.5HP compressors are heavy. I have a 2HP Bosch that is simalar to the specs on the CA Technologies Go systems and I am 6'2" and 210 lbs. and don't like hauling it around if I don't have to.
Those CA Technologies guns are sexy. I have two H2O guns and a Lynx 200 HVLP.

Again, thanks!

You're welcome, glad I could help. If you have more questions don't hesitate to post as others may want to know. I am sure either Scott, Tom or many others will help if I can't.

I have learned so much on this site I find it difficult to not contribute something if I can.
Tim

Tim covered it.

Allyson, sorry I was not clear on how the system comes together. If you pause the first few seconds of my video you will see the large turbine hose to the gun handle and the smaller fluid hose to the port where the cup would go.

I'm 6'1, 195 (admittedly a feeble old man), I got the Jc-10 because I got tired of lugging around the 2 HP Emglo.

Tom

 

[Allyson]

We have been looking at a compressed nitrogen system at my work. I'm not sure if it would meet your portability needs though, but our system is more stable, and can even be heated. It's hard to describe, but it's like we needed a lower psi when using it. The salesman stated nitrogen comes out twice as fast as compressed air. Here's a link to a nitro therm company: http://www.eurosider.com/en/nitrotherm-spray/

Maybe you can read up on it, and see if there is a system that would work for you.

Thanks for this intel, Robert.  I will check out the nitrogen system, but I think that it's adding a bit too much to my mind to consider  I appreciate your note very much, though.

 

[Allyson]

Again, thanks.  I am embarrassed to get the Apollo 1050/vr (I think it's now the Power)  after returning the Apollo Precision.  I'd kept the gun (7500 gravity) in case I'd still go with a turbine unit.  I still have the Apollo demo, but I remain concerned that it isn't working as it should in our altitude, and I've been told I wouldn't have the issue with either the Graco 9.5 or the Titan Capspray 115.  I know nothing about either of these brands, and assumed (could be wrongly) that the Fuji was mostly for "weekend warriors). 

I do need to get the Apollo demo back to the the folks in WI or ask to buy it.  If I stick with a turbine system, I'd like to be able to use it solo for doing small samples and projects, but want to be sure the unit is operating appropriately not only when I would have it attached to an additional compressor.  I have had it with marketing literature that says each brand is the best!  And, outside of this demo Apollo (that isn't working as it should in CO, but is okay), no one seems to be able to demo the Graco or the Titan.  I was very lucky that the company in WI was willing to take things back for a full credit.  This is highly unusual -- they have gone beyond what any SW or other store would likely do, and it certainly shows why to order from people you know rather than from Ebay, Internet, etc., unless you really know what you are doing.

 

[Allyson]

In the picture is the Fuji Q4 turbine, Emglo compressor (normally I use the Jc-10, must have been on a job), Qual Craft pressure pot.

The pot has 3 ball valves, because this pot has a power mixer there is a knob valve for the mixers air motor.

The valve with the black hose is for shutting off fluid to the gun.

The valve with the black pipe cap is to feed air to a conversion type compressor driver gun. I use the turbine for air cap air, this port is not used in this configuration.

Valve above the regulator knob shuts off all air to the pot.

The round knob with the clear hose is the air motor control valve.

The small round device on the left is a valve to release pot pressure.

There is also an automatic pressure relief to bleed the pot incase of over pressurization.

The blue hose on the turbine supplies air to the cap air. The air cap is the horned piece on the front of the gun.

I run the turbine off a remote control switch.

How it all comes together and the benefits of this system;

A bottom feed gun is a must for this system. Gravity and side feeds do not work for many reason. Biggest being the fluid hose may not fit on the gun.

Fluid is placed in the pot, if you're using a 1 gallon pail you can place the pail in the pot, saves clean up. My pot has a removable stainless steel liner, clean up is quick and easy even when I have to fill the pot.

Remove the cup and cup holder from the gun. This should leave you with a 3/8" female flared fitting. This is where the hose will connect.

The turbine connects to the gun in the normal manner.

Once the hoses are connected, fill the pot and secure the lid.

Connect the air supply to the pot.

Now the tricky part-adjusting the air pressure in the pot. At 65ºF shooting Kem Aqua +, I run 10-12 pounds in the pot with a 25' hose and a 0.08mm air cap set. Colder I need a pound or two more, warmer a little less pressure. More pressure than necessary to get the fluid smoothly to the air cap is a bad thing. To much pressure and the fluid flies past the air cap before it is broken up and properly fanned. To little pressure and the fluid sputters onto the surface.

SW Super Paint requires 15 PSI @ 65º F, with a 1.8 mm air cap set.

The above you learn through trial and error. No two finishes are alike, you have to learn the ones you use. Just like selecting the proper air cap set.

Clean up is very easy, remove the product, add water, secure the lid, pressurize the pot, you do not need the turbine on. Open the needle all the way, pull the trigger returning the fluid in the hose to the original product. Once you see thinning product finish flushing into a bucket.

Major benefits are using higher viscosity products without thinning, not having to stop to fill the cup.

A video of 3 doors of the 480 I had to spray both stain and finish on. The gun is the Fuji T-70.



All 3 of my Fuji guns are set up for 3M PPS also. Thats another great system.

Tom

Tom, on a completely different subject, did you make your door racks or are the the Erecta brand?  I am currently using needle boards (still) for my cabinet doors (where you must have all sides finished), and screws on the ends of my bid doors that then set on saw horses.  I mostly need to figure out a better solution for cabinet doors, and I don't want to spray them vertically if I can help it.

 

[tiralie]

I am embarrassed to get the Apollo 1050/vr (I think it's now the Power)  after returning the Apollo Precision. 

Please note the Apollo I recommended 1050vr4500 is not just a 1050/vr but a unit with a pressure pot and small compressor.
It is a completely different model albeit one that uses the 1050/VR as the turbine.

Don't be embarrassed. The dealer wants you to be a satisfied customer if they can.

I'd kept the gun (7500 gravity) in case I'd still go with a turbine unit.  I still have the Apollo demo, but I remain concerned that it isn't working as it should in our altitude, and I've been told I wouldn't have the issue with either the Graco 9.5 or the Titan Capspray 115.  I know nothing about either of these brands, and assumed (could be wrongly) that the Fuji was mostly for "weekend warriors). 

I like the Apollo system the metal box, the 5 stage and the guns etc., but I believe all 5 stage machines will all operate similarly and because of your elevation, all will operate a less than their maximum PSI. Because we (Tom and I etc.) are recommending that you couple this with a small compressor the loss in PSI from the elevation will be more than compensated with the compressor.

I do need to get the Apollo demo back to the the folks in WI or ask to buy it.  If I stick with a turbine system, I'd like to be able to use it solo for doing small samples and projects, but want to be sure the unit is operating appropriately not only when I would have it attached to an additional compressor.

Understood. If the machine is not operating as it should at your elevation, then return it and get one that will.

I have had it with marketing literature that says each brand is the best! 

Yes, well I think we all have.

And, outside of this demo Apollo (that isn't working as it should in CO, but is okay), no one seems to be able to demo the Graco or the Titan.

Continue to persist (if you have time) with your research including demoing other machines.

I was very lucky that the company in WI was willing to take things back for a full credit.  This is highly unusual -- they have gone beyond what any SW or other store would likely do, and it certainly shows why to order from people you know rather than from Ebay, Internet, etc., unless you really know what you are doing.

Agreed, a good dealer is priceless.

Tim

 

[Allyson]

Thanks, Tim.

I do understand that the system you thought of is the combination of the turbine with the compressor and pot. 

Next dumb question, and probably not my last....

If a turbine's marketing lit says it runs at 9.5 psi (or in the case of the Titan Capspray 115 it's 11.5 psi), does it really put that out?  In the case of the Apollo Precision (or 1050 vr), I thought that I'd see the LCD readout at 9.5 if it was turned on high.  As I mentioned in my first post, I never saw the psi on either the Precision unit or the 1050 vr demo unit get up nearly that high, unless I completely plugged the air relief valve on the side of the units.  With the gun on, the max psi's were even different for each unit, with the 1050 vr being higher.  Other units don't have the lcd readouts, so I won't know if they are properly pushing psi either. 

Question....is this normal?  Both units were registering higher psi's on the lcd readouts in both California where Apollo is made, and at the store in Wisconsin.  I am just curious to know if this is specific to Apollo, or if I will have the exact issues with Graco and Titan.  Of course, both the reps for Graco and Titan say they work perfectly in Colorado -- just like they do in any other state.  This is my concern with whatever I buy.  But, sounds like adding a compressor will help regardless.  I just want to get the right turbine unit upfront first.

 

[tjbnwi]

Allyson,

I made my racks. They're a carry over from my previous field, when we restored automobiles we used rotators. Made it very easy to service and repair all areas of the cars body.

I'm still figuring out how to accomplish the same with cabinet doors.

I currently spray doors vertical.

Tom

 

[tjbnwi]

Allyson,

I find the Graco 9.5 very whinny. Sparks well, but I can't stand the sound.

I did not comment on the Titan because I have no real experience with them. I have used the Cap Spray with the pot on the dolly, it worked well. I prefer the Fuji guns over the Cap Spray.

You mentioned you felt Fuji was for weekend warriors, if you ever got a professional spray tan, it was most likely a Fuji system.

I like the sound, feel and spray characteristics of my Fuji. I have 1- Q4 turbine about 4 years old and 2- Xpc-G guns and 1 T-70 gun.

Tom

 

[Emer Construction]

You mentioned you felt Fuji was for weekend warriors, if you ever got a professional spray tan, it was most likely a Fuji system.

Tom

haha...I spray tan my wife and daughter all the time with my fuji

 

[tiralie]

If a turbine's marketing lit says it runs at 9.5 psi (or in the case of the Titan Capspray 115 it's 11.5 psi), does it really put that out? 

Yes, at sea level and under optimum conditions (consistent power and hose connections that are not leaking etc.) they will. 3M Accuspray 4 stage Turbines specify 7psi, which is probably more correct than other manufacturers claims if they actually make a PSI claim which few do.

In the case of the Apollo Precision (or 1050 vr), I thought that I'd see the LCD readout at 9.5 if it was turned on high.  As I mentioned in my first post, I never saw the psi on either the Precision unit or the 1050 vr demo unit get up nearly that high, unless I completely plugged the air relief valve on the side of the units.  With the gun on, the max psi's were even different for each unit, with the 1050 vr being higher.  Other units don't have the lcd readouts, so I won't know if they are properly pushing psi either. 

You would really have to find out how they tested their machines for these claims. They probably tested at sea level, which as you know affects the amount of pressure these machines can generate at elevation.

Question....is this normal?  Both units were registering higher psi's on the lcd readouts in both California where Apollo is made, and at the store in Wisconsin.  I am just curious to know if this is specific to Apollo, or if I will have the exact issues with Graco and Titan. 

Yes, it's physics. There is less air pressure at elevation and therefore takes more energy to create the same PSI. That energy has to come from somewhere and near as I can tell they are not changing the amount of amperage the motors draw to increase the power.

Of course, both the reps for Graco and Titan say they work perfectly in Colorado -- just like they do in any other state. 

Well working and actually getting the maximum stated PSI are two different things. Unless the turbine in those machines some how draw more amps (impossible?) to increase the air intake to compensate for less air pressure at your elevation in Denver they are (unintentionally) misleading you.

This is my concern with whatever I buy.  But, sounds like adding a compressor will help regardless.  I just want to get the right turbine unit upfront first.

I understand. Get the machine that will give you the highest PSI possible.
When I bought my Fuji 4-5 years ago, (it was Tom's fault) I wanted to get the highest psi for my $, but I could find few manufactures who actually provided a specific PSI output.
The manufacturers tended to quote a range if anything at all.
With a pressure pot and a compressor, the PSI from the turbine really only has to properly atomize the coating.
Even in these situations, when I spray some coatings, I do have to balance speed of application, fan and distance to overcome the lack of PSI. I don't like or want to thin as the runs, sags and drips. Once I started to use the turbine, and discovered it's deficiencies spraying some coatings, 2-3 psi here or there was not going to make any difference. My CA Technologies guns are optimized to operate at 28 PSI at the gun and atomize beautifully.

The pressure pot does help overcome 90% of the issues for me and I am relatively happy...
Tim

 

[Allyson]

Allyson,

I made my racks. They're a carry over from my previous field, when we restored automobiles we used rotators. Made it very easy to service and repair all areas of the cars body. You should sell them!

I'm still figuring out how to accomplish the same with cabinet doors.

I currently spray doors vertical.

Tom

 

[Allyson]

Hi.  I did not mean to insult the Fuji system.  I have not used it, and just thought that it was more for weekend warriors...clearly this is not correct.  I have also never had a spray tan, but perhaps with a turbine system I could make some extra money by spraying people!

I tracked down the Titan rep in Colorado, and we are doing a demo date tomorrow morning.  I'll take some of the products I most regularly use.  I like the Apollo 7500 gun, so perhaps can keep it.  I am also intrigued by the CA Tech guns, but don't know if any of them work on the turbine hose.  I know nothing about the gun that comes with the T Capspray 115...it's called the Maxum Elite II. 

I didn't go up to CA Technologies because of all the commentary here (helpful) that basically led to the reality (again) that a compressor/pressure pot combo that provides enough oomph is not going to work for me because of the weight of the compressor.  So, back to the turbine research.  Based on knowing that the psi is going to be a bit less in CO no matter what, the Titan Capspray is supposed to operate at 11.5 if on the high setting.  And I can add a smaller compressor and pressure pot to it.  So, we'll see how tomorrow goes.  I also like the idea of being able to get help locally, and cannot do so with the Apollo.  So much that CO does not have in the way of product and equipment.

Lastly, Tom, you should make and sell your revolving door racks. 

If anyone thinks I am heading down the wrong path, please advise.  Thanks!

 

[tjbnwi]

I do have a way to solve your issue, it would have everyone shaking their head if I posted how I had to get the fluid from a PPS cup to the air cap one day. Necessity was definitely the mother of invention that day.

I will say it was safe due to the PRV in the PPS cup.

Tom

 

[avrs22]

I'm surprised no one suggested warming up the material getting sprayed.
If the material is warmed it will take a lot less psi to atomize it.
Even Kremlin came out with a product heater and the ones using rave about it.
I put my lacquer or poly in a old fridge that always has a light bulb on that keeps my product warm and since then I don't have to thin my product and have a better build up and finish.
I know some that use heat tape to warm the product they spray or a heated box.
The colder the product is the more psi needed to atomize it and the more thinner needed.

 

[avrs22]

And to add,
Accuspray is the best turbine set up.

 

[tjbnwi]

And to add,
Accuspray is the best turbine set up.

You have used every turbine made?

Tom