I am done

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It's posts like these that give a new user like me pause buying into such an expensive tool brand. Hopefully things can turn around between Dovetail and erock (one of the brands biggest supporters) seemingly being fed up I'm second guessing things.

My reason for buying into the brand is to be able to work in a smaller more portable fashion and indoors if I need to. If I had a big workshop with all the bells and whistles I probably wouldn't be as motivated.
 
Here's my take - leveraged heavily from a previous post:

There are several kinds of quality.  This thread is about reliability, which is one kind of quality.  For my part I have purchased ten Festool tools, none more than two years old, and have sent two of them in for repair.  Festool repair has been very quick to repair them, so downtime (yet another measure of quality) has been minimal for my work, and at virtually no cost.  However, as the three year warranty periods expire, future repairs will become more expensive.

It seems to me that where Festool excels is at yet another measure of quality - fitness for use.  The integrated design for dust collection and design for use at customer sites with minimal impact on the site and relatively easy transportability are all characteristics of this measure of quality.  So far I'm not impressed with Festool reliability, since both my Milwaukee and DeWalt tools have been more reliable over a much longer period.  However, the quality of the design for dust control is useful enough to me that I will continue to buy/use Festool - as long as the cost of reliability does not become too burdensome.  Having said that, I realize that other tool vendors are catching up.

As a counter example to my overall happiness with Festool fitness for use, I sold my C18 because (1) it broke under moderate use and had to be repaired, (2) it is not integrated into the Festool dust collection system, which is the primary fitness of use category for me, and (3) the fitness for use is limited by the lack of support for 1/4" ball detent bits.  I can do what I need to do perfectly well with my Milwaukee and DeWalt drills, at the same dust levels, without having to buy expensive new bits.  Given that, I did not have any trouble selling it - there are people out there who calculate value differently than I do.
 
I saw a post on Instagram this morning where someone modified the Festool Dust bag meant for the TSC55/HKC55 to fit their Makita track saw. Clearly Festool must be doing something right if users from other brands have to resort to using Festool accessories for their tools?

As for erock, he is active on his YouTube channel and Instagram under thepopularshop.
In the last few days he has posts on Instagram containing the TS55, guide rail, parallel guides, mft3 and kapex. That doesn't seem like someone who is disillusioned or unhappy with Festool to me but I could be wrong.

 
Jmacpherson said:
I saw a post on Instagram this morning where someone modified the Festool Dust bag meant for the TSC55/HKC55 to fit their Makita track saw. Clearly Festool must be doing something right if users from other brands have to resort to using Festool accessories for their tools?
...

Clearly it means nothing.
The person may have already had that bag, or other reasons which can include that it is good.
The only thing it means is that he used that particular bag.
 
James Biddle said:
Stop the 'system' crap.  You make cordless tools that have no more DC than Black and Decker,...

Actually the TSC & HKC are extremely impressive in DC when using just the standard Festool bag. I've also used the ETS EC 125 with the new Long-Life bag, 201693, and the DC is also impressive.
 
Wow, I just joined this forum today because my less then 2 yrs. old Kapex stopped working. Something wrong with the switch,(hit the handle it works a few times) and the motor housing after doing 16 repetitive cuts in white pine was too hot to touch. I'm semi-retired, this saw has never moved from my garage, I mean it's been babied. No abuse, use sharp 60t Festool blades and it has multiple problems. With blades over 2000$ into this and I have a saw that's not close to the reliability of a Home Depot special. I was a professional woodworker for 30yrs. and my Dewalt DW708 lasted 25 of those years. I've got to find out if it's even still under warranty. If I can get it fixed I'm going to sell it immediately.
 
Holmz said:
Jmacpherson said:
I saw a post on Instagram this morning where someone modified the Festool Dust bag meant for the TSC55/HKC55 to fit their Makita track saw. Clearly Festool must be doing something right if users from other brands have to resort to using Festool accessories for their tools?
...

Clearly it means nothing.
The person may have already had that bag, or other reasons which can include that it is good.
The only thing it means is that he used that particular bag.

I wouldn't infer too much for it either.  I've had track saws as long as anyone around here , maybe longer.  I once attached a dust bag from a Dewalt biscuit jointer to a TS. And to miter saws.

Would you surmise that Dewalt had it right ?  Keep in mind this was before Festool thought to even offer a dust bag for a saw.

Vacuum is still the best option, at least for me.
 
I am new to Festool also and I would add my 2¢. I bought the MTF3 table and an Domino 500 with the systainer full of Domino's. The MFT table yop surface was warped ½ inch in the middle. Festool sent me another top after several photos and back and forth emails. My Domino 500 seems to have the same problem others have noted, it doesn't cut the slots large enough for the Domino's to fit. I have to sand the Domino's down to get them to fit. I haven't even tried to get this corrected, after seeing on the forum what others had to do to get it fixed, I will just sand them down. I have always listened to how great Festool is and that they are really worth the cost. So far I have not been impressed with the quality of their products and I doubt I will be getting any more of them. I wanted a new 6 inch sander and was planning on getting the ETS EC 150/3. After my experience with the MTF3 and Domino, I got the Bosch ROS65VC-6 instead and saved lots of money
 
retfr8flyr said:
I haven't even tried to get this corrected, after seeing on the forum what others had to do to get it fixed, I will just sand them down.

After my experience with the MTF3 and Domino, I got the Bosch ROS65VC-6 instead and saved lots of money

I’m sorry but that just doesn’t make sense. Do yourself a favor and go to the Festool website. Under service, go to Festool repair service and submit a repair request. They’ll issue an authorization to return the DF 500 for service and will pay for shipping both ways. I’ll guarantee the item will be back in your hands within 7-10 days.

Now about the Bosch...saving money is a good thing.  [big grin]
 
Jmacpherson said:
...As for erock, he is active on his YouTube channel and Instagram under thepopularshop.
In the last few days he has posts on Instagram containing the TS55, guide rail, parallel guides, mft3 and kapex. That doesn't seem like someone who is disillusioned or unhappy with Festool to me but I could be wrong.

Thanks for the update on eRock - I subscribed to his channel, I always liked his videos.  I also found his Facebook page and it looks like he has sold off the majority of his Festools and has gone mainly to Bosch and Makita. 

I found this interesting comment he posted when someone asked what happened to all his Festools :
"I've decided not to promote Festool tools for personal reasons. Great tools, I'm just not happy the direction Festool USA is heading."
https://www.facebook.com/thepoplarshop/
 
Yup, Erock was pretty stern in his rebuke. His shop used to be a shrine to the green goddess.
 
J0hn said:
snipe
Thanks for the update on eRock - I subscribed to his channel, I always liked his videos.  I also found his Facebook page and it looks like he has sold off the majority of his Festools and has gone mainly to Bosch and Makita. 

I found this interesting comment he posted when someone asked what happened to all his Festools :
"I've decided not to promote Festool tools for personal reasons. Great tools, I'm just not happy the direction Festool USA is heading."
https://www.facebook.com/thepoplarshop/

Wait a minute. That's eRock? I have come across a few of his Festool videos and he sounded totally into Festool. I was surprised to hear about his separation from all his Festool goodies...for reasons unknown. I have not been paying attention to the direction Festool USA was heading and so I have no clues on what it was all about.

His leaving the Festool scene reminds me of another (former?) woodworker by the handle of Half-inch Shy who has disappeared from the woodworking community. I do know someone in person who recently told me that after his two or three decades of Japanese woodworking, he decided to call it quits and no longer has fire in his belly for any woodworking. I could one day wake up and go down that path without warning, too.
 
For me, Festool helped me out a great deal in organizing my shop.  Was I happy at the price of a long rail ? NOPE !!! was I happy at needing to buy the long LR32 holey rail ? REALLY NOPE ! but the long holey is just a few inches too short for the project I was working on, I understand the marketing reason for it...force you to buy 2 rails and it worked. 

I found the TS55 REQ to be quite nice, not great but it does its job quite well for me.  The 1400 router, is no better than other routers that are half the price but I do really like the ratcheting mechanism on the router collet.  I felt I needed the 1400 for the LR32, other routers can be made to work but I didn't want the hassle.  Using the 1400 router in non-LR32 mode, worked like any other router.  The C18 drill, is nice, but I hate that Centrotec crap, I want to use all my existing bits, so I use the C18 exclusively with the keyless chuck and when the C18 dies, I will go back to standard drill that uses industry standard parts.  The MFT/3 table serves its purpose in my shop nicely, nothing to brag about but I like it and would buy it again.  The LR32, now that is freaking AWESOME and the Domino, why did I wait so long to buy a Domino, why ? why ?

But what Festool did for me more than anything was organize my shop with the systainers and that was worth the cost of admission for me.  I am a auto restorer and woodworker, my garage has 2 modes, car or wood and I don't have enough room to mix the 2 modes.  For the last few months its been daily plasma cutting, welding and metal fabrication work, primer is almost down and then it will engine/gearbox time, during this time, my Unisaw is a engine rebuilding bench, my workbench is a sheet metal bench for making patch panels (WAS a rusty car).  When my garage is in car mode, I usually can't do any woodworking of any kind, with Festool MFT/3 I can set it up and do a quick project for the wife/house and my Festools reside all neatly organized in their systainers where I can get to them.  In a few months when the car is done, I will be back into full woodworking mode (next car has a wood frame under the aluminum body).  Festool showed me how wonderful their organization system is and I am working it into sheet metal work as well.  Using the Domino and track saw I built a ugly but very functional drawer system to sit under the Metal lathe and Mill to keep all that junk organized, built that in one afternoon so its not pretty but I would never have done it before I got hooked on Festool organization.  But you know what ? the "system" is not their tools and I see my future with less Festool tools and more Festool type organization, systainer style stuff.
 
mikeyr said:
... But what Festool did for me more than anything was organize my shop with the systainers and that was worth the cost of admission for me.  I am a auto restorer and woodworker, my garage has 2 modes, car or wood and I don't have enough room to mix the 2 modes. 

I never saw the fascination of using systainers - other than to show off how many Festools you owned/collcted.  I guess I could see it if you were a professional and had to schlepp all your tools to a different job site each day, but for most of us enthusiasts working out of a 2 or 3 stall garage - it made more sense for me to just build drawers or cabinets.  For example, I can get my Trion Jigsaw and my DTS 400 in a single divided drawer

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Regarding the LS32 system - I have a dedicated router just for the LS32 system and it is permanently mounted

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I found this on eRocks's facebook page:

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I won't spend money on a systainer for shop storage purposes, but the systainers that came with the tools are indispensable for me as I keep all the Festool machines inside the house (which is protected by a security alarm system) for added security reasons. They are stored in the hallway closet, directly from the garage entrance door.
 

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J0hn said:
mikeyr said:
... But what Festool did for me more than anything was organize my shop with the systainers and that was worth the cost of admission for me.  I am a auto restorer and woodworker, my garage has 2 modes, car or wood and I don't have enough room to mix the 2 modes. 

I never saw the fascination of using systainers - other than to show off how many Festools you owned/collcted.  I guess I could see it if you were a professional and had to schlepp all your tools to a different job site each day, but for most of us enthusiasts working out of a 2 or 3 stall garage - it made more sense for me to just build drawers or cabinets.  For example, I can get my Trion Jigsaw and my DTS 400 in a single divided drawer

View attachment 1

View attachment 2

Regarding the LS32 system - I have a dedicated router just for the LS32 system and it is permanently mounted

View attachment 3

I found this on eRocks's facebook page:

View attachment 4
  No 'fascination' as you put it, but buying Tools or supplies in Systainers, or adding existing other tool lines into fitted Systainers allow me MUCH better access to everything, and since the systainers are highly portable via numerous ways, it's easier to get things moved from Point A to Point B.
I use Sys Carts to store them on and to roll around my shop. No need to build dedicated storage, and if I sell off a tool, it's just one stack that got lower in height. The same for adding stuff, it fits an existing stack or I buy yet another Sys Cart and start a new stack..... [embarassed]
Sys Roll to go to a Job Site, OR, putting Systainers on top of one of my Vacs.
Other than a few oddball tool kits/boxes that don't lock to my Systainers, I'm set for tidy storage and portability.  I COULD finally move my Makita tools into Systainers, haven't done that yet... [scratch chin] [scratch chin]
 
If i see one more post about how Festool drill are rubbish because "i want to use my own bits" i might be done with this forum  [big grin]

Im not telling anyone they should buy a festool drill, despite owning 4 of them and being basically in love with centrotec ... They can be viewed as an  un-necessarly expensive way of drilling holes and driving screws for sure...  But they come with a bloody keyless chuck people! Just like that other drill that takes all your bits!
 
Clearly festool must be doing something wrong if people are modifying tools to get festool accessories to work. 
 
I didnt say the drill was rubish :) I said it was nice and that when it breaks I look forward to going to a drill that uses industry standard bits, but I hope it does not break for a long time, its nice.

For the systainers, I don't have a fascination with them but the tools came with them and I saw the beauty of drawers and organization. Before that, all my tools were thrown together in one big metal filing cabinet drawer or toolbox drawer and never organized.  I have since built "custom" drawers for my tools and also a cabinet with sys-az's for the systainers, got a few non-Festool systainers also.  What they showed me is how wonderful it is to be organized where I was not before. 

But back to the tools, with few exceptions I no longer drink the green cool-aid but you wont ever see my Domino or LR32 for sale :)
 
glass1 said:
Clearly festool must be doing something wrong if people are modifying tools to get festool accessories to work.

Well , I modified my Festool to use dewalt accessories that weren't even available.  So they were doing something right in that instance?
 
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