I keep cutting things short!!

[rmhinden]

the problem is the tape measures.  For some reason, almost all of them are in cm, no mm.  This makes it so easy to screw up when reading it.    You want say 236mm.  Your brain is expecting things like 100, 200, 300, and then between them. 10, 20, 30 markings, and then 1mm tick marks.  So,  200, ->30 -> 6 ticks,    but since almost all of them are in cm, you are looking at 10, 20, 30, 1, 2, 3...  It just sets up the path for issues.

The only tape I have found in the US that is any good marking wise is the true32 tape.  It works correctly (mm).  All the rest are in cm, I have messed up a lot with them.  As folks know from other threads, I'm very metric, these stupid cm tape measures cause nothing but issues.

I agree.  I think I read it somewhere, it's less error prone if you only work in mm.  That is, not in cm.  It avoids the issues you mention.

I only get rules that are in mm.    As you wrote, the FastCap true32 tape is good  The Woodpecker metric rules are in mm. 

Bob

 

[DeformedTree]

Meh, I keep on cutting things short ALL the time. Think I could build a house with all the material I wasted over the years.

The problem is not the tape measures, nor the system.

It's me.

You were working the "tiny house movement" before it was cool.

I generally find there are always shorter parts to be made, so most errors are saved.  I cut longest stuff first,  so then I can always use screw ups to make shorter parts.

 

[TwelvebyTwenty]

My wife has been telling me for a long time that I overestimated the length of things.

 

[Sparktrician]

the problem is the tape measures.  For some reason, almost all of them are in cm, no mm.  This makes it so easy to screw up when reading it.    You want say 236mm.  Your brain is expecting things like 100, 200, 300, and then between them. 10, 20, 30 markings, and then 1mm tick marks.  So,  200, ->30 -> 6 ticks,    but since almost all of them are in cm, you are looking at 10, 20, 30, 1, 2, 3...  It just sets up the path for issues.

The only tape I have found in the US that is any good marking wise is the true32 tape.  It works correctly (mm).  All the rest are in cm, I have messed up a lot with them.  As folks know from other threads, I'm very metric, these stupid cm tape measures cause nothing but issues.

I tend to concur.  The issue I have with FastCap tapes is that they're often less accurate than Hultafors tapes, for example.  In the attached photo, two Hultafors tapes (3M and 6M) are on top, and two FastCap tapes below. 

 

[FestitaMakool]

Meh.. you’re doing it wrong: Measure once and cut twice, or more..  [big grin]
it’s the head that gets screwed up. Fractions in imperial is no good if the measuring device doesn’t have the right scale (At least what many of those I’ve seen and used here)
Metric where all goes 10x in each scale, is easier - but leaves no guarantee for error - the user! [wink]
There’s no “wrong” thinking, whether one thinks in mm, cm or meter. Do what’s easiest for you.
I use metric (of course) almost for anything new. But there are imperial on some (rare, old) stock or framing wood. Not to mention imperial in mechanical applications, such as bolts. I then use imperial to measure something established in imperial. For new layout metric is easier to work with once you familiarise. A tape measure or measuring stick with both standards helps familiarise.

 

[FestitaMakool]

Hultafors is quite renowned here by professionals.
I only carry Hultafors measuring sticks, apart from one Stabila. I usually have 10+ of them spread all over. And checked side by side, unless damaged they are all more or less spot on to each other.

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.
I tend to concur.  The issue I have with FastCap tapes is that they're often less accurate than Hultafors tapes, for example.  In the attached photo, two Hultafors tapes (3M and 6M) are on top, and two FastCap tapes below.

Less accurate?

It shouldn't matter as long as the same tape is used throughout to measure everything in a project, including using that same tape to set up the table saw. etc. I know for a fact that the tape measure on my table saw isn't the same as any tapes I own (Lee Valley, Fastcap, Craftsman, etc.).

 

[Cheese]

Another issue is if you switch between different manufacturers tape measures. Not every tape measure is exactly the same. A few years back I purged the 5 different tapes I used and replaced them with 3 Starretts that were on sale.

One sits on the table saw, one sits on the Kapex and the third is what I use for general measurements.

If what I'm cutting is absolutely critical...I then use the same tape to both measure and to mark the wood. 

 

[Sparktrician]

Another issue is if you switch between different manufacturers tape measures. Not every tape measure is exactly the same.

Exactly my point.  It seems that my Hultafors tapes are the most consistent, tape to tape.  Too bad they're so hard to find in the US. 

 

[kevinculle]

Let me get this clarified with you first as I might be misreading your message. Are you saying you spend 25% to 50% of each of your working session on planning?

No.  When I am working a large scale project I put in 6 to 8 hours in the shop, working steadily to my plan and always 15-30 minutes at the end of the day to clean and organize for the next day.  Then in the evening I work the plan to update where I'm at, make sure all the details for tomorrow's work are complete and plan ahead a few days.  On a day to day basis this probably takes no more than an hour.  Before I ever start the project I do full scale SketchUp models and my detailed spreadsheets covering all parts and operations.  So I am estimating between the initial planning and the daily refining the plan I spend 2 to 4 hours total in planning for every 7 to 8 hours working the wood.  In my experience the time spent doing effective planning pays back many times over in the quality and productivity of my shop time.

 

[afish]

I agree with the fastcap true 32 tape. I love that thing I even bought the flat version for my unisaw.  I work in metric for cabinet work but switch back to imperial for eveything else.  Old habits die hard.  I havent had any issues so far with the fastcap tapes not matching up between the two (handheld and saw).  Also when I use the end stops with my LR32 and have cut the panel based on 32mm it fits perfect between the stops, snug but not to snug and no slop.  I couldnt be happier but maybe I just got lucky...

 

[Bugsysiegals]

the problem is the tape measures.  For some reason, almost all of them are in cm, no mm.  This makes it so easy to screw up when reading it.    You want say 236mm.  Your brain is expecting things like 100, 200, 300, and then between them. 10, 20, 30 markings, and then 1mm tick marks.  So,  200, ->30 -> 6 ticks,    but since almost all of them are in cm, you are looking at 10, 20, 30, 1, 2, 3...  It just sets up the path for issues.

The only tape I have found in the US that is any good marking wise is the true32 tape.  It works correctly (mm).  All the rest are in cm, I have messed up a lot with them.  As folks know from other threads, I'm very metric, these stupid cm tape measures cause nothing but issues.

I tend to concur.  The issue I have with FastCap tapes is that they're often less accurate than Hultafors tapes, for example.  In the attached photo, two Hultafors tapes (3M and 6M) are on top, and two FastCap tapes below.

I’ve many different measuring devices and often wondered which is correct (General Ultratech Caliper, Stanley tape measure, Kregg Multi-Purpose Marking, Lee Valley Long Life Folding, SS Starrett, Woodpecker, Oregon, and Incra rules).  I've double checked and everything is in alignment except the Oregon adhesive rule and Incra Lexicon scales. 

Besides the tape measure which can be off since the hook can flex, this is great to know since I use Incra fence with plastic scales and/or teeth for the MFT/3 fence, parallel guides, and miter sled ... now I know not to use the plastic scales on the same projects where I've used any of my other rules and vice-versa.

 

[Bohdan]

When I need to buy a new tape measure I go to a store that has lots of different brands, pull the tapes out to a long length and compare a bunch of tape readings. The ones that don't agree with the rest I discard and from the rest I select the one that  like.

This tape usually agrees with the ones that I have at home.

(This would be easier if I remembered to take one of the tapes from home with me.) [big grin]

 

[afish]

I dont think that tape measure error is as huge of a deal as some.  I have only had one time that I remember that one tape was grossly wrong and it was a crap brand, I stay away from it anyways.  A 1/16 or mm or two shouldnt be a make or break scenario in most woodworking.  After all thats what fillers are for, there's going to be a lot more of variance in any wall than on two different tape measures. Yes its better to be consistent and use the same tape throughout the entire job.  Yes some tools or machines will have their own rule and if I am cutting or setting up to make a bunch of critical cuts I always let the tool start a cut then stop and pull out my tape and verify the saws rule matches my tape.  This practice comes from working in some large shops that might have 10 table saws and 200 carpenters working in it. So you never knew how accurate or what the guy before you did so you always had to verify.  At home you develop more trust in your equipment but its still a good practice.   

 

[six-point socket II]

As a native metric'ian, I'd like to hear more about what you think the problem actually is.

I can understand that if metric isn't exactly "natural" for the user, switching between mm and cm can cause troubles/"accidents".

Like my Woodpecker Square(s) and also my German made Squares and T-Squares use mm. But my folding ruler(s) and most tape measures use cm.

So 110 (mm) on my Square is actually 11.0 cm and 110 (cm) on my folding rule or tape measure is 1.10 m

To me that has never been an issue, because, again, it's natural - and even if it wasn't: the size of the "300 mm" Square alone, screams "it's mm" because that's never going to be 300cm or 3m

I'd ban every tape measure from the shop that starts at "1" again after "10".

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[Bugsysiegals]

As a native metric'ian, I'd like to hear more about what you think the problem actually is.

I can understand that if metric isn't exactly "natural" for the user, switching between mm and cm can cause troubles/"accidents".

Like my Woodpecker Square(s) and also my German made Squares and T-Squares use mm. But my folding ruler(s) and most tape measures use cm.

So 110 (mm) on my Square is actually 11.0 cm and 110 (cm) on my folding rule or tape measure is 1.10 m

To me that has never been an issue, because, again, it's natural - and even if it wasn't: the size of the "300 mm" Square alone, screams "it's mm" because that's never going to be 300cm or 3m

I'd ban every tape measure from the shop that starts at "1" again after "10".

Kind regards,
Oliver

I switched to metric a few years ago and this is my second project since doing it.  Adding/removing 0 isn't difficult and for me I believe it's the repeating 1-9 or 10,20,30, which causes improper reading of the rule. 

In this case, I was supposed to cut several boards at 1149mm but instead cut them at 1049mm which is 100mm short.  I suspect I pulled the tape measure out until I seen 100cm which is followed by 1 and my mind jumped to 1100 and then moved over to the 4 thinking I was where I needed to be.  The Stanley tape measure is the only metric rule I have which is labeled in this way ... all other rules are either numbered consecutively such as 100, 101, 102, etc., or are in mm.  In fact, the 8020 pieces I cut short were also measured with the Stanley tape measure.

Maybe it's only an accident waiting to happen for non-native metric persons but it seems this problem could be easily avoided altogether by printing the numbers consecutively.  Perhaps I'd still make the occasional error with cm to mm but I bet it would be far less of an issue than the repeating 1-9.

 

[DeformedTree]

As a native metric'ian, I'd like to hear more about what you think the problem actually is.

I can understand that if metric isn't exactly "natural" for the user, switching between mm and cm can cause troubles/"accidents".

Like my Woodpecker Square(s) and also my German made Squares and T-Squares use mm. But my folding ruler(s) and most tape measures use cm.

So 110 (mm) on my Square is actually 11.0 cm and 110 (cm) on my folding rule or tape measure is 1.10 m

To me that has never been an issue, because, again, it's natural - and even if it wasn't: the size of the "300 mm" Square alone, screams "it's mm" because that's never going to be 300cm or 3m

I'd ban every tape measure from the shop that starts at "1" again after "10".

Kind regards,
Oliver

I switched to metric a few years ago and this is my second project since doing it.  Adding/removing 0 isn't difficult and for me I believe it's the repeating 1-9 or 10,20,30, which causes improper reading of the rule. 

In this case, I was supposed to cut several boards at 1149mm but instead cut them at 1049mm which is 100mm short.  I suspect I pulled the tape measure out until I seen 100cm which is followed by 1 and my mind jumped to 1100 and then moved over to the 4 thinking I was where I needed to be.  The Stanley tape measure is the only metric rule I have which is labeled in this way ... all other rules are either numbered consecutively such as 100, 101, 102, etc., or are in mm.  In fact, the 8020 pieces I cut short were also measured with the Stanley tape measure.

Maybe it's only an accident waiting to happen for non-native metric persons but it seems this problem could be easily avoided altogether by printing the numbers consecutively.  Perhaps I'd still make the occasional error with cm to mm but I bet it would be far less of an issue than the repeating 1-9.

Your case is exactly the exampled I gave in the other thread I liked to above.  When you go over 1m, things get screwy fast.

Its really just frustrating as it doesn't need to be this way, there is no reason for cm, it's defeating a big purpose of metric and bring numbers to the other side of the decimal, which is just one more thing to deal with.  Adding to it, aside from tape measures, almost nothing is in cm, especially the stuff woodworkers are using.    Drills, Bits, Tools, hardware, 32mm cabinets, sliders, material thicknesses, on and on,  everything is in mm,  so randomly injecting cm in there is just absurd.  From a lifetime of seeing people struggle with/dislike metric,  centimeters are one of the core problems, when you have mm and m, things make sense, and the use case is there, suddenly using this other unit here and there that is getting closer to an inch, but not an inch,  adds one more unit (remember, trying to get away from fractions, thou's, inches, feet, yards, and trim down to mm and m).  You will not find many anti-metric folks who don't use cm as a core of their arguments against metric.

 

[six-point socket II]

I hear what you say about "cm" and I can even see the "problem" you're addressing - but to be honest, for native metric users, it simply isn't one. It is done/used every day like that. And the process of simply changing the decimal dot feels/is natural.

Everything above 1m would mean a 4 figure number in mm. That's not really practical to work with (at those lengths), that's why cm are used. And it's the same vice versa: a 12 mm drill bit "makes more sense" than a 1.2 cm drill bit. It just "naturally grew/ evolved"

But I guess it all comes down to what you are truly used to. I bought myself a tape measure that has a metric and fractional scale, just to better understand FOG posts when fractional measurements are used, to get a "feel" for it, so to speak. And I'm sure, if I started to do projects with inches/fractional measurements, I'd make the same mistakes.

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[Bugsysiegals]

FWIW - I ordered a Starrett adhesive rule and not only does it align perfect to my SS Starrett rules but it fits inside the Incra tracks.  The Incra Lexicon scales aren’t off by a lot but if you wish to have all rules the same, this is a suitable replacement.

I also received the Fastcap True32 tape measure and it’s only off by about 0.5mm after 1000mm which seems acceptable to me.  More importantly, it’s in mm rather than cm which should eliminate errors, has 32mm markings which is helpful, and some other standard 32mm cabinet design markings which may or may not be helpful.

 

[afish]

FWIW - I ordered a Starrett adhesive rule and not only does it align perfect to my SS Starrett rules but it fits inside the Incra tracks.  The Incra Lexicon scales aren’t off by a lot but if you wish to have all rules the same, this is a suitable replacement.

I also received the Fastcap True32 tape measure and it’s only off by about 0.5mm after 1000mm which seems acceptable to me.  More importantly, it’s in mm rather than cm which should eliminate errors, has 32mm markings which is helpful, and some other standard 32mm cabinet design markings which may or may not be helpful.

If you do a lot of the 32mm cabinets I think you will really like the true 32 tape.  not only is it all in mm as you pointed out but the 32mm marks should help with errors too.  You can also write on the tape since it has a matte finish so that should also help if you are doing a lot of repetitive measuring for a particular dimension or have some standard dimensions for cabinet heights/depths. Its not the most durable tape but they are cheap enough to replace when they wear out.  Mine has a pretty fast recoil so you may have to watch out for that.  Fastcap also makes a true32 peel and stick version for tablesaws that has both mm with the 32mm marks and imperial scale on it which is also nice.