"I'M BEING MONITORED!"

[Chris Hughes]

  I'm with nickao, I think.  I'm not inclined to read a post from someone with a screen name that is meant to offend me so I generally don't.  I used to belong to another posting site and we would get some (@$$) spouting off about things just to start a rucus.  We found the best way to deal with them was to "let it be".  So tear it up "Festeringtool"   

 

[iggy07]

Although I have posted on this thread a couple of times, I too agree that over the long haul, the best way to defuse disruptions is simply to ignore them.

Matthew has the right to ban anyone, for any reason. He has made it quite clear that this is not his preference, and he has stated why. Legally, free speech is guaranteed under the law, but it is not guaranteed in every forum, private club, etc. Nevertheless, it is Matthew's preference to be as tolerant as possible of all viewpoints, limiting this tolerance to the point where he begins receiving multiple notices from 'concerned citizens'. Unfortunately, in addition to the original problem with one individual, others have chosen to debate, and/or criticize Matthew, and then, of course, others have felt the need to defend Matthew -- the saga continues.

IMHO (as God's Gift to Mankind  ;D  ), (a) Matthew 'could' ban anyone, for any reason, at any time; (b) This is 'probably' not wise, if one wants to maintain a vibrant, growing, dynamic forum; (c) Matthew 'could' let anyone say anything, at any time, no matter how annoying or disruptive; (d) Between these extremes, Matthew has the 'right' to set any policies he chooses; (e) He has described a reasonable middle ground -- "say whatever you like, but if too many people find your views disruptive, you may well be 'labeled', at least temporarily. (f) This policy seems more than fair; you get to say what you want, while at the same time being informed that you may be on the edge of the pushing the limits.; (g) There is really nothing to debate here. If Matthew would like more opinions, he can solicit them any time, directly, by PM, or by setting up a poll. Otherwise, he keeps his ear to the ground, weighs the alternatives, and makes the decisions.

This is one of the two best forums I've ever belonged to. In both cases, this is primarily due to the level-headed leadership and sound decision-making of the organizers. Keep up the good work, Matthew!!!

iggy

Ed Gallaher

 

[Dan Clark]

nickao,

I hear that your primary concern is giving out your real name.  That is a concern for some people.  Each person has their comfort level.

I take a different position and believe that giving out your real name adds a sense of honesty.  That said, I don't think it is appropriate for me to force you to do something with which you are uncomfortable. 

Moving on to the substantive...  Let's compare you with festeringtool:

- You use an alias, but you are reachable by e-mail.  It's in your profile.  Festeringtool has his e-mail hidden.

- Your alias is a bit confusing to me, but it's not offensive that I can see.  Festeringtool has chosen an alias that is irritating to anyone interested in Festool tools.

- I looked at many of your posts.  Virtually every one had substance and discussed issues.  Some of your posts were negative to Festool, but NOT ONE was offensive.  Virtually all of Festeringtool's posts were snide remarks about Festool tools and/or Festool users. 

For example, festeringtool "You must be a pretty wimpish lot if criticism of festools warrants a warning - what the heck is wrong with being critical of overpriced tools why must criticism be effectively censored?"  In sentence, attacks Festool users as "...wimpish..." and states that Festool tools are overpriced.  This is a sleazy use of the assumptive.  He is arguing about what is wrong with with being critical, but that assumes that you agree with him that the tools are "overpriced".  Finally, he brought up "censorship".  This is a classic ploy of trolls.  They ALWAYS play the "censorship" card! 

- In your posts, even when you were critical, your posts were balanced (as an intelligent person will usually be) and you did not use "hot words" - words that are meant to evoke strong reaction. 

For example, regarding the MFK700, you wrote "Why they did not integrate guide rail capability into the design on a new item I wonder about."  To me, that's a perfectly reasonable, rational response from someone that is questioning the design.  Further, the following sentence described how the guide rails plus MFT were major factors in moving to Festool.  That's an EXTREMELY rational, balanced reaction. 

Now look at festertools phraseology.  His text is FULL of hot words - words that are meant to generate emotion and havoc.  They are extreme value judgments and criticisms.  For example:

- "... the brand isn't faultless as some people on here seem to think."  (Implies that people think the Festool is faultless.  I.e., that FOG members are stupid.)

- "Sounds like a right cock up to me - I don't want this kind of fiasco when I'm dropping a few biscuits in....lol".  Cock up is British slang for a blunder or screw up.  Again the use of the assumptive. 

- "...cockup having to go with dry fits cus you cant get the frigging thing out....".  Lots of hot words here.

- "I thought we were talking about handtools not frigging cars or jewellery!  Perhaps you are wearing them socially and this is your idea of nightlife LOL."  Ooooh, this is a tasty one.  Nice slam on the tools AND the users!   

- "From the look of you pair - this woodworking lark is taking it's toll on you!"  Here's a nice personal attack. 

- Regarding the Festool dust bags, "Yes they are a real rip off.....I'd stick to disposable too".  I love "rip off".  One of the hottest of the hot words. 

There are many people who have taken positions which offended people.  Sometimes they used language that was not the best.  The key is that they were taking a position in which they believed strongly. 

Over time, through conversation, there was understanding and acceptance EVEN IF POSITIONS DID NOT CHANGE!  Above all, value was shared! 

Now compare that with the posts of festertool.  In looking at his posts, I found not ONE shred of value and nothing but criticism of Festool, FOG and FOG members.

Frankly, I think he should be banned.

Regards,

Dan.

 

[Ned]

I share Brice's opinion about real names, but I do believe that Nickao's points are valid, and so have to agree that real names should not be required.

I do use my real name here, but it is not my legal name.  My name here won't be found in the phone book, nor on any ID, but it is how you would address me if we met.  I'm grateful to have been stuck with a nickname.

I've always enjoyed the English inclination to use pseudonyms.  Tubal Cain's timeless work in Model Engineer comes to mind.

Inflammatory screen names are something else, and completely unacceptable.

Ned

 

[Corwin]

Festeringtool,
 I looked at your past posts to see what the fuss is about.  I think it's your use of the word cock to be frank.  Just tone it down.  I mean I don't see a thing you said that is out of line other than possibly that.  I also beleive that you wouldn't possibly realize that if it's part of your vernacular.  I don't see what else it was.  I think you were just trying to be blunt, yet the use of that word is probably not the same here in the United States.

I was wondering about your inclusion of that word also, but have since seen that there is a cultural difference.  Might be wise to refrain from using that word here.

Once put on the defensive, one might become just that -- defensive.  Instead, why not just tone things down a bit, as others have suggested, and we can all get back to the tools.  If you truly want to discuss the tools, you have come to the right place.  However, as you may have noticed, this is not the place to stir things up -- there are other woodworking forums that seem to be filled with that sort of content (particularly regarding Festool), be we would like to avoid that here.   Hey, this is kind of a 'home away from home' for many of us, so surely you can understand how we like to keep it, well, peaceful.

Hope this ends well,
Corwin

 

[nickao]

nickao,

I hear that your primary concern is giving out your real name.  That is a concern for some people.  Each person has their comfort level.

I take a different position and believe that giving out your real name adds a sense of honesty.  That said, I don't think it is appropriate for me to force you to do something with which you are uncomfortable. 

Moving on to the substantive...  Let's compare you with festeringtool:

- You use an alias, but you are reachable by e-mail.  It's in your profile.  Festeringtool has his e-mail hidden.

- Your alias is a bit confusing to me, but it's not offensive that I can see.  Festeringtool has chosen an alias that is irritating to anyone interested in Festool tools.

- I looked at many of your posts.  Virtually every one had substance and discussed issues.  Some of your posts were negative to Festool, but NOT ONE was offensive.  Virtually all of Festeringtool's posts were snide remarks about Festool tools and/or Festool users. 

For example, festeringtool "You must be a pretty wimpish lot if criticism of festools warrants a warning - what the heck is wrong with being critical of overpriced tools why must criticism be effectively censored?"  In sentence, attacks Festool users as "...wimpish..." and states that Festool tools are overpriced.  This is a sleazy use of the assumptive.  He is arguing about what is wrong with with being critical, but that assumes that you agree with him that the tools are "overpriced".  Finally, he brought up "censorship".  This is a classic ploy of trolls.  They ALWAYS play the "censorship" card! 

- In your posts, even when you were critical, your posts were balanced (as an intelligent person will usually be) and you did not use "hot words" - words that are meant to evoke strong reaction. 

For example, regarding the MFK700, you wrote "Why they did not integrate guide rail capability into the design on a new item I wonder about."  To me, that's a perfectly reasonable, rational response from someone that is questioning the design.  Further, the following sentence described how the guide rails plus MFT were major factors in moving to Festool.  That's an EXTREMELY rational, balanced reaction. 

Now look at festertools phraseology.  His text is FULL of hot words - words that are meant to generate emotion and havoc.  They are extreme value judgments and criticisms.  For example:

- "... the brand isn't faultless as some people on here seem to think."  (Implies that people think the Festool is faultless.  I.e., that FOG members are stupid.)

- "Sounds like a right cock up to me - I don't want this kind of fiasco when I'm dropping a few biscuits in....lol".  Cock up is British slang for a blunder or screw up.  Again the use of the assumptive. 

- "...cockup having to go with dry fits cus you cant get the frigging thing out....".  Lots of hot words here.

- "I thought we were talking about handtools not frigging cars or jewellery!  Perhaps you are wearing them socially and this is your idea of nightlife LOL."  Ooooh, this is a tasty one.  Nice slam on the tools AND the users!   

- "From the look of you pair - this woodworking lark is taking it's toll on you!"  Here's a nice personal attack. 

- Regarding the Festool dust bags, "Yes they are a real rip off.....I'd stick to disposable too".  I love "rip off".  One of the hottest of the hot words. 

There are many people who have taken positions which offended people.  Sometimes they used language that was not the best.  The key is that they were taking a position in which they believed strongly. 

Over time, through conversation, there was understanding and acceptance EVEN IF POSITIONS DID NOT CHANGE!  Above all, value was shared! 

Now compare that with the posts of festertool.  In looking at his posts, I found not ONE shred of value and nothing but criticism of Festool, FOG and FOG members.

Frankly, I think he should be banned.

Regards,

Dan.

Point taken Dan.  I appreciate your comments about my remarks.

Nickao is my first name(Nick), middle initial and last initial.  I guess that makes me border line wanting to give my name, but something makes me stop short. I like this group so if it was between using my name and not being able to participate I would definitely use my real name. I guess I was focusing on cons, maybe someone can list a bunch of pros.

I am here mostly to learn and  pass on anything relative that I can. I come to this forum to talk shop or sometimes just talk about anything else with people that share a common interest in woodworking.

I have only been posting for a very short time, but what a great group this is. I have 6 kids from twin 5 year olds to a 24 year old son. It is mayhem! I work out of the house by myself and most of my time is spent with kids. Sometimes I just need to talk to adults other than my wife and it is great that so many people enjoy what I enjoy and I can come here and talk shop. The point being that you are right in wanting to keep this forum clean of negativity. I come here for fun and to get away from negativity. If 30 people were leaving nasty posts it might ruin the experience.

I do appreciate you bringing this up before flaming becomes rampant. People tend to respond in kind. Its difficult not to respond to a negative post and I have fallen into that trap before. Wasting my time dissing people is not what I want to do. I would rather learn something and then go try it in the shop! So I am done with this thread.

nickao

I am a Festool addict, partly because of this forum!

 

[colinw]

IMHO ......People who post with this attidude are usually trying to get attention, or extact a reaction from you (us).....

 

[Bob Swenson]

I have a problem with not using your real name on a craft forum, perhaps
If you are posting on a political forum you might not want to be connected
With your views, but with craftsmanship I can't see it.
How about --- Walnut table by "Festering Splinter"
The last Supper by "leoD"
Priceless Violin by the "Italian Stud"
Grandfather clock by "The old Geezer"
I take pride in my work and don't want to hide behind my posts.
Bob  8)

 

[Dan Clark]

...
I am here mostly to learn and  pass on anything relative that I can. I come to this forum to talk shop or sometimes just talk about anything else with people that share a common interest in woodworking.
...
I have 6 kids from twin 5 year olds to a 24 year old son. It is mayhem! I work out of the house by myself and most of my time is spent with kids.  Sometimes I just need to talk to adults other than my wife and it is great that so many people enjoy what I enjoy and I can come here and talk shop. The point being that you are right in wanting to keep this forum clean of negativity. I come here for fun and to get away from negativity. If 30 people were leaving nasty posts it might ruin the experience.

I do appreciate you bringing this up before flaming becomes rampant. People tend to respond in kind. Its difficult not to respond to a negative post and I have fallen into that trap before. Wasting my time dissing people is not what I want to do. I would rather learn something and then go try it in the shop! So I am done with this thread.

nickao
...

Nick,

You've expressed key reasons why a lot of us come here.  It's a peaceful place to discuss our interests, bring up substantive issues, share our knowledge and learn from each other.

While we don't have kids living at home, my office life is also mayhem and we're engaged in a major remodel (for the last two years).  I come here for peace and quiet, and to discuss something that has nothing to do with computers (my work life)!  Like you and virtually all of FOG members, I want to keep FOG free of negativity.

The primary challenge is maintaining a decent atmosphere.  Many of us have opinions on how to do that faced with a negative poster.  Some people want to just ignore negative comments.  Some want to attack the poster.  Some want to discuss the issues raised rationally with the idea that the poster will calm down.

Since I "picked" on you, I'll switch to Dirty Deeds.  When DD first posted here, he wrote something that irritated me pretty badly.    What did he write?  I can't remember.  What motivated him to write it and why?  I don't really know and don't think it's relevant.  What IS relevant is the content of his posts and what he did about the negative impressions...

As I recall, he was arguing a substantive point of view in his posts.  He was NOT sniping and harassing.  And, when he saw that his writing style didn't get the response he wanted, he changed his style!

Frankly I was gob smacked (British for blown away 8) ) at his turnaround!  Now he's a respected member of the community.  I look forward to his posts, like his ideas (especially his systainer racks!), and hope his hand is better.

People like DD have a lot of value to add to the community and will pick up on how they are perceived.  Unfortunately there is another category of people who are neither - people who troll forums stirring up trouble and whose only purpose is to disrupt and spread negativity.

The problem with a troll is that ignoring them, harassing them or trying to discuss issues rationally with them doesn't work particularly well.  The underlying problem is their hidden agenda - disrupting the forum.

The only solution that I've found to work is to not play their game.  I.e., if you are pretty sure that they are trolling, respond orthogonally.  If they say you are "wimpish", responding with something like,  "That's a personal attack and completely inappropriate." calls them out.

I think Matthew's "I'M BEING MONITORED" solution is the probably the best solution "calling them out" that I've encountered.  When a person doesn't respond to reason and is viewed as troll by many people, then there's probably fire behind that smoke.  This last-ditch warning warns the poster that he/she is on thin ice.  And it warns the community to be cautious when dealing with this person; it helps prevent useless discussions and emotional responses from community members.  Above all, it responds orthogonally and publicly to their hidden agenda.

Overall, I believe the combination of the "Report to moderator" link and the "I'M BEING MONITORED" label gives the community a great tool for keeping trolls out.  The "Report to moderator" link gives Matthew a quick awareness of the issue as it occurs and a good understanding of community consensus opinion.  The "I'M BEING MONITORED" label gives him a method of dealing with the issue.

Regards,

Dan.

 

[Brice Burrell]

  Nick, I feel the chance that someone will track an Internet forum member down to do any kind of harm is very remote. Using common sense about giving out any more personal information will greatly reduce the chances even more. I understand not everyone is comfortable, but most people are probably like you, they would rather use their real name if they had too. There is just one pro to use real names. I don't think it will stop all jerks from joining FOG, but it will help most members be a little more responsible. Even if it is not mandatory, but strongly encouraged it, or maybe allow member use first initial and last name. I think this type of policy may be worth having even if it stops a small number members from joining that would have otherwise joined.

  I think protecting this forum's atmosphere should take priority here. We gain nothing by allowing disruption, insults and irresponsible behavior. We should expect to hold members accountable for their posts, that is hard to do when members are allowed to use an alias. Even harder when there is no consequences for their actions. This forum is reaching the point where the growth is going to change things here, and not always for the better. Matthew has done a great job running this place, and I respect that fact that he gives all of us a chance to voice our opinions. I'm known for my strong opinions, so its a good thing we have other members here to help balance things out. So how do the rest of you guys feel? When is enough, enough and a member should be banned? Real names or not? To what length should we go to protect the atmosphere on this forum?

 

[dirtydeeds]

one guy here in england was jailed last year, he tracked down and murdered another forum member he disagreed with

 

[danrush]

Hey Guys,

I use my real name, but I'm not asking anybody else to.  Over the years, I've met a few jerks.  Most of the time I knew their names.  Sometimes a quick STOP IT! worked, sometimes I had to ban them from my life.  So it goes. A jerk is a jerk, name or alias alike.  As long as there is a mechanism to ban the offender, I would propose allowing the vast majority of members to feel comfortable with their posting.  Anonimity is not in itself a bad thing.

Thanks, Dan

 

[Matthew Schenker]

  Matthew I have a few questions. First, what are grounds for a member to be removed from this forum? I know the best thing to do is to let a problem like this go away on its own, how long do we wait before action is taken to remove the problem member? Festeringtool has shown he is not interested in being a responsible member. More to the point he only wants to disrupt this forum, upset its members and degrade this forum's content.

  One last thing, I'd like to see members have to use real name as "user names." Starting with new members. I believe this helps to promote responsible posts. I know there is possible problems with this type of policy, I would however like to talk about the pros and cons.

On your first question, there is no "official" policy on banning or removal from the group.  In fact, I have never removed anyone from the forum, and cringe at the idea of having to do it.  However, festeringtool is helping me out by providing a test case!

On your second point, about "real names," we had a debate about this when the new forum was established (click here).  The consesnsus at that time seemed to be that real names are preferred, but should not be required.  We can always open the topic up again, although at this point we have thousands of members who do not use their real names.

Matthew

 

[dirtydeeds]

i use one alias on all the forums i visit, the same one as i use here

there a few others out there who use this alias

but my writing style is obvious

 

[danrush]

After reading the thread Matthew referenced, I feel even stronger that real names should not be required.  Some folks, for whatever reason (angry bosses, co-workers, ex's, whoever) will not post under real names. That doesn't mean that they don't have good things to offer.  Besides, is there really any way to to know whose name is real or not.  Am I Dan Rush or not?  ( I am )  Just a thought...

Thanks again, Dan

 

[Dan Clermont]

After reading the thread Matthew referenced, I feel even stronger that real names should not be required.  Some folks, for whatever reason (angry bosses, co-workers, ex's, whoever) will not post under real names. That doesn't mean that they don't have good things to offer.  Besides, is there really any way to to know whose name is real or not.  Am I Dan Rush or not?  ( I am )  Just a thought...

Thanks again, Dan

I don't think this forum should try to force people to use their real names. Years ago I remember getting into a pretty good discussion on a forum and it was quite heated. My wife didn't like the fact I used my real name and if someone wanted to stop by our home they'd be able to look us up. On the other hand, I'd hate to see someone pickup a username for a forum like "Robin Lee" (CEO of Lee Valley tools) who also posts on forums under Rob Lee. Most moderators would shut the person down but on a forum like this where he isn't registered it could be an issue.

I don't know what the right answer is. I like people using their real names because they are accountable for their actions but on the other hand if they offend someone or some people I'd hate someone get assaulted.

Am I overreacting? Maybe but I was physically assaulted at my work place awhile back and it got pretty nastywhile they sorted it out. The other guy lost his job but it didn't take much for him to flip out and he was worn out from working the graveyards which didn't help

Dan Clermont

 

[Brice Burrell]

On your first question, there is no "official" policy on banning or removal from the group. In fact, I have never removed anyone from the forum, and cringe at the idea of having to do it. However, festeringtool is helping me out by providing a test case!

 I like your laid back style of management here, this is one area where it could hurt the forum however. Members like Festeringtool degrade this forum. Reluctance to remove a problem member, in my opinion, is the wrong approach. This reluctance allows the disruption to continue, upsetting the good members and ruining the atmosphere here. I mean no disrespect, just voicing a difference in opinion. I will respect your decisions of how to best handle these situations.

On your second point, about "real names," we had a debate about this when the new forum was established (click here).  The consesnsus at that time seemed to be that real names are preferred, but should not be required.  We can always open the topic up again, although at this point we have thousands of members who do not use their real names.

Matthew

I'd say we are discussing it.  ;D

 

[bruegf]

Just to be fair here, I will say that after the inital rhetoric, FesteringTool's posts have toned down considerably.  Hopefully this was all a misunderstanding and things will settle down again.  I've been on other forums where there was a combative tone much of the time and it definitely detracts from the goal of sharing information.  The atmosphere on FOG has been great and I hope it continues for a long time.

Fred

 

[Brice Burrell]

Just to be fair here, I will say that after the inital rhetoric, FesteringTool's posts have toned down considerably.   Hopefully this was all a misunderstanding and things will settle down again.  I've been on other forums where there was a combative tone much of the time and it definitely detracts from the goal of sharing information.   The atmosphere on FOG has been great and I hope it continues for a long time.

Fred

Fread, I think we all agree this is a great place. The problem we are facing now is that hope is not enough to keep this place what it is.

 

[CharlesWilson]

Over the past few months forum activity has picked up considerably. I was away for a week at the beginning of March, and when I got back on there were dozens of new topics and hundreds of new messages. It took a long time to get caught up, and I am sure that I missed a lot.

The red flag indicating a combative poster at least helps to steer me away from time wasting threads.

Charles