I'm just about through with WB lacquer

[rnt80]

I've been using WB Lacquer for about the last year and a half. While it's usually been Target Coatings products that I've used I did pick up some of Valspar's WB lacquer this summer. I've never really been satisfied with the results but this last job may have been my breaking point. I finished up a whole house job a couple of weeks ago and had to remake a couple of the doors. The stain was custom matched my SW. One of the pictures below shows the door sample that the stain was matched to, a piece of trim that was stained and then sprayed with the pre-cat lacquer and then the replacement door I made underneath all of that. The trim piece and the replacement door were both stained with the same product. However, the replacement door was sprayed with the WB lacquer. The discoloration between the two is unmistakable.
It's hard to tell from the picture but the replacement door also looked "cloudy" (my wife's description - and if she notices something like that then it's bad) as well. I had to sand down and start from scratch.
I found out this summer that if I don't go over the stain with some shellac before I apply the wb lacquer then the "cloudy" aspect is terrible.
I had to use some tinted pre-cat lacquer this summer for a small job and the difference between it and the wb lacquer I have been using was night and day. The smoothness of the finish with the pre-cat was twice what I was used to with the wb.
I've really tried to stick it out with the wb products but it has been an exercise in frustration. I've ended up spending way too much time and money over the last year having to fix finishes, come up with an alternative solution or just completely redo everything.
I do love the fact that I can clean up after the wb products with just water and I like the idea that they are better for the environment. It's just really disappointing that I haven't been able to get the results that I would expect to get.

 

[tjbnwi]

Have you considered a water base conversion varnish?

http://www.targetcoatings.com/emtech-8000.html

A friend recently did a kitchen in a "sprits" conversion varnish, it turned out very well. Next will be an attempt at the water based.

I use this companies pre-cat urethane,  they claim it is as good as a conversion varnish, from what I saw they may be correct.
Do not recall if I ever used their lacquer;

http://www.generalfinishes.com/professional-products/water-base-topcoats-and-sanding-sealers

Thinking about it, there aren't many I have not tried. I choose by the application.

Tom

 

[Jesse Cloud]

I hear you Russell.  I try WB every few years, and it keeps getting better, but it still doesn't hold a candle to petro lacquer.  I wish it were otherwise and will try again some day....

 

[CharlesWilson]

And, just as I was about to give WB a try, I stumble on this thread. Maybe I'll try it on something that I intend to throw away instead of something I plan to keep.

Charles

 

[wnagle]

I like ML Campbells pre cat water bourne Lacquer.  No bluing, can be sanded in 30 mins.  Nice stuff.

 

[tiralie]

rnt80:
Maybe it's beginners luck but I have not had any clouding when applying Target's emtech em6000.
I always use a stain sealer (Ultraseal) shellac which is a Beeach to apply but that's what Target recommended.
I hope this helps.
tim

 

[CharlesWilson]

I was wondering if the clouding may have been due to spraying when there was high relative humidity. For my last project, I waited almost two months (for humidity to fall below 50%) before I sprayed the alcohol based shellac finish coats.

Charles

 

[tiralie]

I was wondering if the clouding may have been due to spraying when there was high relative humidity. For my last project, I waited almost two months (for humidity to fall below 50%) before I sprayed the alcohol based shellac finish coats.

Charles

I have used (sprayed) both EM6000 and Ultraseal in the garage with the door open while it was raining... no clouding.

 

[junk731]

What was the original door sprayed with? Are you trying to match a NC lacquer to a WB lacquer?

John

 

[Warrior]

What was the original door sprayed with? Are you trying to match a NC lacquer to a WB lacquer?

John

Im thinking the same thing. It would be very difficult to get the stain to match with one Solvent top coat and the other WB. Ive jettisoned all my WB finishing for my projects as well. Ive kept my WB spray system just in case I get a request for WB from a client. Ive found the they dont really care if it's WB or SB as longs as it looks great and is durable. The WB is durable but looks like @$$ except on maple.
I just picked up a very inexpensive binks sv100 hvlp cup gun with disposable liners so clean up is a snap. maybe 1/8 of a cup of solvent to clean the gun after a day of spraying. Solvent based finishes atomize alot easier than WB so its not as difficult to get a good off the gun finish.

 

[Scott Rollins]

I get the bluish tint on the EM-6000 and EM9000 also.  When I first sprayed on a coat it looked good in the garage, but then when I put it in the truck the next day to ship-blue tint every where!  I was too embarrased to send it.  The finish was beautiful to the touch-but blue!  I read that it would go away in a week or two and so I waited.  It is most obvious when the finished piece is in the sunlight-it is quite unsightly.
I never did find out if the tint went away completely-the client wanted the table anyway. 

 

[ccmviking]

I don't really have any experience with the Target stuff but haven't heard too much good about it.  I used one of their products once and didn't care for it.  I have been using this stuff for a couple of years now and could not be happier.  80+ % of what I do is cabinetry and I haven't had any finish failures with this stuff yet. 

Renner 245    This stuff is awesome...  sands nicely, looks great.  Have you ever applied a flat finish and when you rub your fingernails on it you end up with shiny tracks?  Actually it's one of those things with flat finishes that people hate where you can see the shiny rub marks.  You'll be hard pressed to mess up the finish from this stuff. 

I use this cross linker in the 245 Top Coat  CrossLinker

I use this for a sanding sealer  Sanding Sealer

Chris...

 

[junk731]

If you want the look of a NC lacquer from Target Coatings try the EM 2000 Alkyd Varnish. No bluish cast, has the NC amber cast, sprays great and sands great. I believe its one of their hardest`finishes.

John

 

[downtheroad]

+1 on the Renner. Been using it for several months now and really like it.

What equipment are you applying the Renner with? We're using an Accuspray 4-stage HVLP/pressure pot system. The Renner is really thick and we've been thinning it and using a larger aircap/needle to get it to flow better. Still working at trying to get the right setup.

Waterborne clears generally don't have that nice amber warm look over darker colors. We'll compensate by adding an amber tint to the first 1 and/or 2 clear coats. These are known as Amber Overprints and some manufacturers sell them for this purpose.

 

[HowardH]

Ok.  Now I'm thoroughly confused.  ???  I have been using a NC lacquer but have been reading up on the WB versions.  Environmentally more friendly, easier clean up, presumably excellent results.  Now you guys are saying WB sucks, doesn't hold a candle to NC lacquer or SB based poly's.  Jerry Work swears by Target Coatings.  He's pretty good.  Others swear by GF WB finishes and then Renner is thrown into the mix. Renner is sold only by 5 gallon buckets so that's out of the question for me.  I wouldn't use that much in 5 years.  I did order Charles Neil's pre-color conditioning anti-blotching stuff.  Marc Spagnuolo highly recommends it so that's good enough for a try.  I suppose the only real answer is to buy a quart of the WB poly or whatever and give it a try and see what happens.  I use a Fuji Q4 if that makes a difference. 

 

[junk731]

Howard

You can talk to a hundred different people about finishes and finishing and get a hundred opinions. I think one thing to consider is that the writing is on the wall for solvent based finishes. On our side of the border its very difficult for Joe Public to by a solvent based finish and most of the WB stuff off the shelf is crap. You've heard from a small number of users on this board that have had problems with various WB products but did they choose the right finish for what they wanted to achieve, have they all researched the products they using or just gone on some one elses word. When I have a question about a finish I'll call the manufacturer to discuss what I'm trying to achieve, the product / method I want to use and what their recommendations are, many times I've been steered to another product that I hadn't considered with good results. There is a definite learning curve to using WB finishes and definitely a lot of BS to wade through, remember, this is the internet and anyone can say anything about anything.

John

 

[HowardH]

Yea, that's why I'm going to try a few different things and see what I think.