"I'm too poor to afford cheap tools"; What Festools exude value?

[friedchicken]

This is exactly what my original question is; what festool tools fit that bill?

I think the OF1400 does that really well, as well as the TPC.  The circular saw uses proprietary blades (and seemingly only comes with a battery as the HK55 looks discontinued?).

My opinion is that just from the router perspective, aside from Maffell's offerings that are usually more expensive, there is no finer router than the festool ones. the OF2200 is a marvel of technology, and a pure delight. The OF1400 is similarly great. I can't speak to the OF1010 as I don't have that model yet, but I would expect it to be as good.

I don't think I've ever heard of anyone saying they regret buying an OF1400 or OF2200. Money well invested.

That's what I've found: there aren't any good routers around.  I've looked at the dewalts, makitas, bosch; I had a metabo HPT that literally exploded in my hands...

I don't think Mafell actually offers any router for my needs in the U.S.  There is this one that runs off of 240 volts that I don't have.

Umm.. my questions are genuine?

The issue is, they are completely out of touch.
It is not possible to achieve premium good results with garbage consumables. Period.
---
I will try to phrase this as universally as possible also for the posterity reading this:

Bad tool, bad consumables (Home Depot & Co.)
=> very bad results + shortest tool lifespan

Bad tool, quality consumables
=> bad to OK-ish results (if tool not too bad) + short (but not shortest) tool lifespan

Quality tool, bad consumables
=> bad results + short tool lifespan (bad consumables prematurely destroy the quality tool)

Quality tool, quality consumables
=> good results + good tool lifespan /i.e. as expected/

Quality tool, top-end consumables (Festool/Mafell/Leitz ..)
=> good+ results + good+ tool lifespan /i.e. better than with stock consumables from tool maker/

Top tools (Festool/Maffel..), bad consumables
=> bad results + mediocre tool lifespan (tool gets destroyed by consumables, warranty voided)

Top tools (Festool/Maffel..), quality consumables
=> very good results + very good tool lifespan

Top tools (Festool/Maffel..), top-end consumables (Festool/Mafell/Leitz ..)
=> excellent results + top tool lifespan (with maintenance counted in decades)

---
In short:
with the exception of using general quality consumables with top tools, all sensible scenarios call for equivalent or better consumables than is the tool level. Across the board. This is "common knowledge" among everyone with some trades experience. Be it hobby or professional. Though I can imagine an "outsider" may not realise that.

Wow.

WOW.
I'm not sure where to even begin here.

You've lost the forest for the trees  The tool completes the job not the other way around.

Wow I don't even know where to begin you're so deep in your own head.

Have you ever actually even been inside a Home Depot, Ace, Lowe's, or any of the other specialty shops I might have around here?  They carry cheap tools, but they also carry real quality.... and I have no idea where you got the idea that I don't buy or recognize the importance of quality tools, or the difference those tools make...  More importantly, they also carry a wide variety depending on the job I need done.  Ripping, sawing, fine finish.  If I need a job done, waiting 3-5 days to get a proprietary special version is a ludicrous option that only someone who's never actually done a job would suggest.

I'm legit speechless here.  You have missed the forest for the trees.

What if I hit a nail?  What if the blade rusts?  What if it gets stolen or lost or a fucking meteor carrying an alien similarly enamored with festool comes and steals my blades/sandpaper/bits.  What if I needed more than I thought, or what if I need something super specialized for a one-off job, like cutting a copper pipe?

I really hope that last sentence was meant in jest, for your sake and the world's.

Quality tools and media are staggeringly superior to lesser tools and media, and vastly cheaper in the long run!

100% true, at least if you do a job often enough.  I've been pretty impressed with what the recent competition in the tool space has brought, although I tend to err on the side of conservative (read: don't care for milwaukee)

 

[Packard]

Festool’s reliance on resin components runs up against my “plastic prejudice”. 

Drilled into my psyche, is the metal-is-better-than-plastic mind-set.

So, side by side Woodpeckers aluminum aftermarket items will always feel expensive, and Kreg’s offerings almost exclusively produced in blue injection molded plastic, will always feel cheap.

My Porter-Cable bench pocket hole jig is made almost entirely of cast and machined aluminum. 

Kreg’s version was almost entirely made of molded plastic.

By all accounts, the Kreg offering is as good or marginally better than the P-C version.

Both were available at the time at $159.00. 

So, Festool’s venerated Systainer holds no sway to me.  It’s plastic.

Wooden handled screw drivers and chisels are definitely not superior to the counterparts that use resin handles.  I still feel that the wooden handled tools “feel” like quality, and the plastic handled tools “work”. 

 

[mino]

...
WOW.
I'm not sure where to even begin here.

You've lost the forest for the trees  The tool completes the job not the other way around.

Wow I don't even know where to begin you're so deep in your own head.
...

I see Cheese was right. Though resorting to ad hominems will not work over here.
---
Anyway, if you wanted to go there, the actual tool is the blade, the sandpaper, the drill bit. The thing called "tool" in my comment is a short for "power tool". I.e. something driving the actual business end/tool. As that is how language works. Sorry.

Experienced tradesmen buy the power tools to run the blades/bits/paper etc. they use/need. Not the other way around.

And on the top end of the market for consumables, the SI standard arbors, bits and stuff are a common thing even in US. I know it as per the many comments and posts by other FOG members over the years and not only. The market for high end power tools is global these days. The volumes are just too low to pay for custom US versions on that end of the spectrum.

You are right on one thing. I have never been to Home Depot.
Probably because I am located in the Czech Republic. You know, the place about 1/3 of the Festool tools are made (and designed) in.

 

[friedchicken]

...
WOW.
I'm not sure where to even begin here.

You've lost the forest for the trees  The tool completes the job not the other way around.

Wow I don't even know where to begin you're so deep in your own head.
...

I see Cheese was right. Though resorting to ad hominems will not work over here.
---
Anyway, if you wanted to go there, the actual tool is the blade, the sandpaper, the drill bit. The thing called "tool" in my comment is a short for "power tool". I.e. something driving the actual business end/tool. As that is how language works. Sorry.

Experienced tradesmen buy the power tools to run the blades/bits/paper etc. they use/need. Not the other way around.

And on the top end of the market for consumables, the SI standard arbors, bits and stuff are a common thing even in US. I know it as per the many comments and posts by other FOG members over the years and not only. The market for high end power tools is global these days. The volumes are just too low to pay for custom US versions on that end of the spectrum.

You are right on one thing. I have never been to Home Depot.
Probably because I am located in the Czech Republic. You know, the place about 1/3 of the Festool tools are made (and designed) in.

An ad hominem requires my statements be fallacious... they are decidedly not.

How can you even presume to speak on hardware store offerings if you've never even been to a home depot????  Like what??

Respectfully; yours is not the opinion/answer I seek in my question.

 

[Packard]

I bought two Porter Cable 690 routers from Home Depot.  I did not know that Home Depot’s 690s were junk.  Or I would have bought them from another source. [eek] [big grin]

 

[mino]

I bought two Porter Cable 690 routers from Home Depot.  I did not know that Home Depot’s 690s were junk.  Or I would have bought them from another source. [eek] [big grin]

The context was availability of consumables. Not power tools.

I am yet to run into a hobby market, no matter the brand, selling Leitz blades. Or even CMT for that matter /but that may be Europe-specific/.

 

[Cheese]

Festool’s reliance on resin components runs up against my “plastic prejudice”. 

Drilled into my psyche, is the metal-is-better-than-plastic mind-set.

So, Festool’s venerated Systainer holds no sway to me.  It’s plastic.

Packard, I was also of the same opinion and definitely had a "plastic prejudice" until I started to design capital equipment for the semiconductor industry...then everything changed.  [smile]  There are just so many areas where polymers are the better choice but the trouble is those materials need to be selected very carefully and the part needs to be designed to properly work with the material chosen. Unfortunately, one or both of those requirements are often skipped over.

As far as not embracing Systainers, here's an example as this "wall of red" is comprised of Milwaukee metal tool boxes.
All of the boxes are different sizes so having uniform storage cubbyholes becomes an issue.
Most of the boxes have metal handles on the top cover so stacking becomes an issue.
None of these boxes can be connected to one another so carrying multiple tool boxes becomes an issue.
These things slide around in the bed of a pickup truck so denting becomes an issue.
The red paint flakes off so rusting becomes an issue.
They are not even close to being water proof so wet contents inside during a rain storm becomes an issue.

Here's the solution, 4 boxes of different sizes all latched together and stored in the same size cubby. All 4 of these boxes can also be carried with one hand freeing up the other hand to open the door. This type of plastic storage is just so much better than the old school metal method.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

 

[rst]

When I found Festool and it's systainer system, I transferred all my tool collections.  I must have left 20 original boxes in the original shop when my in-laws shut us down.  All my Miklwaukee, Fein anf Metabo are in systainers.  I still have a couple of the extra large Plano boxes for my really large stuff, 8 1/4" worm Skill saw, 10" Milwaukee saw and a couple I can't think of but I know where the pile is.

 

[peter halle]

I have found value in all of my Festool purchases.  Lets not talk about my professional use, but I place value on tools that haven't broken down in up to 18 years and the satisfaction of using them and not having to learn the nuances of a new tool even now as someone who doesn't need to use them to make a living.

Peter

 

[friedchicken]

not having to learn the nuances of a new tool even now as someone who doesn't need to use them to make a living.

This is another huge deal for me.  Sometimes you have that old POS tool that's truly *yours* where *you* know how to use it and its nuances.  That's a tangible value, and with that it's nice when that tool isn't a POS but something nice.

 

[Packard]

Festool’s reliance on resin components runs up against my “plastic prejudice”. 

Drilled into my psyche, is the metal-is-better-than-plastic mind-set.

So, Festool’s venerated Systainer holds no sway to me.  It’s plastic.

Packard, I was also of the same opinion and definitely had a "plastic prejudice" until I started to design capital equipment for the semiconductor industry...then everything changed.  [smile]  There are just so many areas where polymers are the better choice but the trouble is those materials need to be selected very carefully and the part needs to be designed to properly work with the material chosen. Unfortunately, one or both of those requirements are often skipped over.

As far as not embracing Systainers, here's an example as this "wall of red" is comprised of Milwaukee metal tool boxes.
All of the boxes are different sizes so having uniform storage cubbyholes becomes an issue.
Most of the boxes have metal handles on the top cover so stacking becomes an issue.
None of these boxes can be connected to one another so carrying multiple tool boxes becomes an issue.
These things slide around in the bed of a pickup truck so denting becomes an issue.
The red paint flakes off so rusting becomes an issue.
They are not even close to being water proof so wet contents inside during a rain storm becomes an issue.

Here's the solution, 4 boxes of different sizes all latched together and stored in the same size cubby. All 4 of these boxes can also be carried with one hand freeing up the other hand to open the door. This type of plastic storage is just so much better than the old school metal method.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

There is no question that plastic can outperform metal in many situations. 

But why do so many people wax enthusiastic for those red anodized CNC aluminum measuring tools when some injection molded pieces are just as accurate and 1/5th the coat.  Plastic prejudice. 

In my opinion, this all metal and wood hand plane will always feel to of better quality than the all metal and plastic Festool saw.

Festool exudes quality and utility.  The hand plane exudes quality and craftsmanship. 

In the hand, the plane wins from my perspective, even though I almost never use one and will often use the Festool.

.

.

 

[leakyroof]

Festool’s reliance on resin components runs up against my “plastic prejudice”. 

Drilled into my psyche, is the metal-is-better-than-plastic mind-set.

So, Festool’s venerated Systainer holds no sway to me.  It’s plastic.

Packard, I was also of the same opinion and definitely had a "plastic prejudice" until I started to design capital equipment for the semiconductor industry...then everything changed.  [smile]  There are just so many areas where polymers are the better choice but the trouble is those materials need to be selected very carefully and the part needs to be designed to properly work with the material chosen. Unfortunately, one or both of those requirements are often skipped over.

As far as not embracing Systainers, here's an example as this "wall of red" is comprised of Milwaukee metal tool boxes.
All of the boxes are different sizes so having uniform storage cubbyholes becomes an issue.
Most of the boxes have metal handles on the top cover so stacking becomes an issue.
None of these boxes can be connected to one another so carrying multiple tool boxes becomes an issue.
These things slide around in the bed of a pickup truck so denting becomes an issue.
The red paint flakes off so rusting becomes an issue.
They are not even close to being water proof so wet contents inside during a rain storm becomes an issue.

Here's the solution, 4 boxes of different sizes all latched together and stored in the same size cubby. All 4 of these boxes can also be carried with one hand freeing up the other hand to open the door. This type of plastic storage is just so much better than the old school metal method.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

  WOW, is there some MILWAUKEE LOVE there..... [eek] [eek] [big grin] [big grin]

My 2 cents. I've worked with Metric in various phases for a really long time. But with woodworking, I don't. I could, I am like the OP in that I just don't. Chasing down blades, bits and other NON-Imperial sized consumables can be frustrating, but if the tool or system is something that I really like, I put up with it.
  I also consider that with Festool, you're buying into a System as much as a tool. It's your choice on how integrated you want to take it at times.
Festool HAS been behind other Tool Makers when it comes to Cordless Platforms, so for Cordless tools, they're often not my first choice for many a given task.
Sanders, still my first choice with buying a Festool product. It's rare that I'm not totally happy with one of their Sanders.
Total game changer for me with stripping finishes, sanding raw wood, sanding finishes for next coats, Paint prep, Drywall work, etc.
But, the next breath has to be their Vacuums/Dust Extractor to go with those sanders... [wink]
Variable Speed Control, VERY quiet units compared to many other Vacuums, work space stackable due to Systainers etc being housed with the Vacuum in your workspace, or job space.

 

[onocoffee]

[member=78045]friedchicken[/member] I do have Home Depot, Lowe's, Ace, Harbor Freight, PaulB, Rockler and a smattering of Woodcrafts around me, as well as a collection of DeWalt, Makita, Ryobi, Skil, Cutech and Craftsman power tools. Been working with those tools for years, and spent much of those years lauding my DeWalt purchases.

And while they're still good tools, the reality is that tools from companies like Festool (Mafell, Mirka, Hilti et al) are better. They feel better. They work better. They perform better. The ergonomics are better. The designs are better. The dust collection is better. In most every aspect they are better.

Can you get the work done with the offerings from other companies? Of course. Are the other companies offerings more readily available at the Home Depots of the world? Without a doubt. I can't just go and get a Hilti battery at Ace - and if you need something Mafell, it's even worse. However, that doesn't change the basic fact that these tools are demonstrably better to use.

I'm guessing that you don't have any real exposure to Festool, which is why you're fighting everyone so much. That's a shame. I had been gazing at Festool from afar for many years, comfortable in my lack of experience while sanding with my DeWalt, Ryobi and Makita sanders. Everything was fine. Festool was expensive. Then I started work on a larger project (for me) and my friend brought in his ETS EC 150/5.

That was it. Using the tool demonstrated the value in purchasing a $1000+ sander (yes, I know it's only $575 for the 150/5 but you also gotta get the CT MIDI for best results). Since the summer, I've dropped some solid coin on Festool and have not regretted it for a moment. The tools work like no other. Would I like them to be cheaper? Absolutely. Did I just buy a used Bosch GET75-6N for $225 because I don't have the $690 to drop at Christmastime for the RO150? I did. Does that diminish my consideration of Festool? No.

You might consider thinking about the one Festool tool that you need most at the moment. Go out and buy it. Use it for a couple of weeks. Decide for yourself. You might hate it. You might use it and think "Shit, my DeWalt is better/good enough than this." If so, the best bit is that you can return the Festool within 30 days and get a full refund. You could use the shit out of the tool for a few weeks, return it and still have the money to buy anything else you want.

Go use the tool and see for yourself. Then come back after and bitch about how you can't get a box of Granat Net at Home Depot.

 

[onocoffee]

[member=44099]Cheese[/member]
To your point about the varying box sizes of your Milwaukee collection. I've been building shop carts to 418mm width to fit Systainers but thought I would see if my other tool boxes would fit. The steel box for my 1990s era full-size 7.25" DeWalt 575 Circular Saw will fit in the 418mm x 320mm space. Yet, the plastic molded case for my cordless 6.5" DeWalt 18v DC390 is too big for the space. Unbelievable!

But I am curious - why the yellow SysLocks? Does it have to do with cheese?

 

[squall_line]

But I am curious - why the yellow SysLocks? Does it have to do with cheese?

A number of users have talked about color-coding their latches to the type of tool so that they can grab what they need or see from afar what is where.  I would imagine in this case that the yellow is for sanding, with other colors reserved for other uses.  I think he also has a Mafell 55 saw, which is in a case with a red latch, so maybe all of his other saws have red latches, too?  Or maybe the red latches are reserved for Mafell and Milwaukee.  [big grin]

 

[rst]

While I use the Festool systainers for my power tools.  That being said I use Milwaukee for my  it’s and pieces. To that combination, I’ve made adapter plates to connect my systainers to my Milwaukee boxes and vise versa. I originally started with the original Milwaukee parts bins but sold all them when the newer connecting ones came out.  I also sold the original cart and bought the handcart version which is even better now that there is a front opening box and the various drawer versions.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

I have a lot more Festool tools, and am happy with pretty much all of them.  The CXS I just never got into, and keep reaching for my Dewalt impact/drill.

I would assume that this is purely based on what you do and the size of the screws you use?
I have never heard anyone say they didn't like the CXS. Even my apprentice, who is a total Milwaukee fanboy, admits that my CXS feels better than the Milwaukee "attempt" to copy it.

As to the rest of this....I'm just not sure.
My perspective is purely from the standpoint of a pro. From there the "system" approach makes the most sense. I keep the charger platforms to a minimum, with the CXS being the only outlier.
he rest of my cordless tools are Makita. I have had the LXT since the very beginning and they have never let me down.
Pretty much everything else is Festool, again because of the system. Plug-it is a huge thing for me and my workflow. Using multiple tools with one cable and hose is very freeing.
All of that likely irrelevant to a hobby user.

That said, the "can't live without" TS and DF500, but again, it depends on what you make. If joinery is not a thing in your world, that might not do it for you either.
Without knowing the end goal, it's all just a guess.

 

[luvmytoolz]

That's what I've found: there aren't any good routers around.  I've looked at the dewalts, makitas, bosch; I had a metabo HPT that literally exploded in my hands...

The DeWalt DW625E should certainly be a good purchase as it's their clone of the ultra-reliable and venerated ELU MOF177E after B&D bought ELU. In fact if all you wanted was a fantastic grunty workhorse, any second hand ELU MOF177E or even the smaller 96 would be very worth purchasing. Same goes for older model Makita's, they're loud but reliable and powerful. Some of the newer model Makita's are very nice indeed, not as good as Festool though of course.

 

[luvmytoolz]

Festool’s reliance on resin components runs up against my “plastic prejudice”. 

So, Festool’s venerated Systainer holds no sway to me.  It’s plastic.

Out of the numerous storage solutions I've bought into over the last 4 decades, the systainer by far has been the most useful, and despite being plastic, a generally extremely robust system that has stood up to being misused and abused, and lugged around.

I built my shelving to suit the systainers which makes access really convenient while being very neat, and the fact you get them free (well not really, but I treat them as such) with the tools is just a bonus! I also have moved a lot of my other brand tools to them as they are the most practical storage solution I've ever used.

 

[friedchicken]

[member=78045]friedchicken[/member] I do have Home Depot, Lowe's, Ace, Harbor Freight, PaulB, Rockler and a smattering of Woodcrafts around me, as well as a collection of DeWalt, Makita, Ryobi, Skil, Cutech and Craftsman power tools. Been working with those tools for years, and spent much of those years lauding my DeWalt purchases.

And while they're still good tools, the reality is that tools from companies like Festool (Mafell, Mirka, Hilti et al) are better. They feel better. They work better. They perform better. The ergonomics are better. The designs are better. The dust collection is better. In most every aspect they are better.

Can you get the work done with the offerings from other companies? Of course. Are the other companies offerings more readily available at the Home Depots of the world? Without a doubt. I can't just go and get a Hilti battery at Ace - and if you need something Mafell, it's even worse. However, that doesn't change the basic fact that these tools are demonstrably better to use.

I'm guessing that you don't have any real exposure to Festool, which is why you're fighting everyone so much. That's a shame. I had been gazing at Festool from afar for many years, comfortable in my lack of experience while sanding with my DeWalt, Ryobi and Makita sanders. Everything was fine. Festool was expensive. Then I started work on a larger project (for me) and my friend brought in his ETS EC 150/5.

That was it. Using the tool demonstrated the value in purchasing a $1000+ sander (yes, I know it's only $575 for the 150/5 but you also gotta get the CT MIDI for best results). Since the summer, I've dropped some solid coin on Festool and have not regretted it for a moment. The tools work like no other. Would I like them to be cheaper? Absolutely. Did I just buy a used Bosch GET75-6N for $225 because I don't have the $690 to drop at Christmastime for the RO150? I did. Does that diminish my consideration of Festool? No.

You might consider thinking about the one Festool tool that you need most at the moment. Go out and buy it. Use it for a couple of weeks. Decide for yourself. You might hate it. You might use it and think "stuff, my DeWalt is better/good enough than this." If so, the best bit is that you can return the Festool within 30 days and get a full refund. You could use the stuff out of the tool for a few weeks, return it and still have the money to buy anything else you want.

Go use the tool and see for yourself. Then come back after and bitch about how you can't get a box of Granat Net at Home Depot.

It's exactly my buying a festool sander that prompted my post.  The tools are fantastic.  I'm enamored: a company that does things right.  The whole reason for my post is: what will I buy next.  My work is neither hobbies nor professional.  It's home repairs and the like.

Two days later I bought an ETS 150/3 that I'm now selling and looking t get a 150/5.  Right now I have the Bosch Rotax equivalent.  Fantastic sander, and I have a boatload of sandpaper for it from Klingspor.  The DTS came with a sample paper of Granat, and it's tangibly better than Klingspor's offering, at least for the DTS.  It clings WAY stronger to the backing pad, the holes line up better, as does the perimeter, and it feels more scratchy.  I haven't actually used it yet, but the next time I need something sanded to 120 I will.

That's where I'm at, and I'm now wondering, where should I put my next investment.  That is why I'm asking.  I harbor no illusion, I'm not going to have a garage full of festool, unless a project calls for it.  But I am looking to replace my existing tools.  I need a good circular saw, and would like one with a miter track.  I prefer corded to cordless tools for most of my tools.  My apprehension with the HK55 is the non-standard blade sizes (For the U.S. market, which is where I am).  Mafell has the KSS 60cc.  Its out of my budget, but if I find the need, that'll probably fit the bill.

More likely my next festool purchase will be the OF1400 router.  I have two porter-cable D-Handles that are fantastic.  I am hoarding them because they are out of production.  The other routers I have now I will sell b/c I don't need/like/want them.