Imperial vs Metric in My Situation

Kev said:
The major consideration here is aptitude. Some people have no trouble mixing, crossing over, etc. You just need to be comfortable with your abilities, the background you have and your capacity to adapt and change.

Yeah [member=13058]Kev[/member] I use both.
The physical dimension is usually the same.
So unless one buys rulers and tapes in both, one just picks "a system".
I like metric, but the tapes I have have both.

A pencil or calculator are usually needed too.

It is sort of funny as SI (metric) is more of "a system", so one would assume it would be well embraced.
 
Hello All

Metric is really a simple system of measurement. All you need to do is know how to move the decimal point. For example, the metric measure of length is the metre.

In 1 metre there are 100cm and 1000mm. 100mm is 10cm or 0.1m

 
Steve-Rice said:
I'll stick my neck out and be the contrarian on this one...

Having grown up with the imperial system, that's what I'm used to and am most comfortable with, so that's what I've stayed with.  Yes, I use Festool tools, but there is an imperial overlay for the depth of cut on my TS 55 REQ and I have the Seneca thickness gauge on my Domino DF 500. I have a 150mm pocket ruler for measuring Dominos and determining the depth of cut of the Domino mortise, but all my other measurements are imperial. We know that 125mm sandpaper is 5" and 150mm sandpaper is 6", so no big mystery there. My cabinet saw fence system is imperial and all my router and drill bits are imperial, so switching completely over to metric would just complicate the bulk of my work. Besides your customers are not going to be receptive to metric measurements anyway, so why waste your time making your life more complicated? Let's face it, most of the population in the U.S. is using the imperial system, why the heck would you want to swim against that tide, just because a few of your tools are metric?  That makes absolutely no logical sense to me...

Thanks for your reply!  You make great points.  In my situation however, my only non-Festool tools are a couple of drills.  I don't currently own a router but I am sure I will buy one in the not too distant future.  I suspect I will go Festool but I am not 100% positive.  And I think I can convince my main customer that it won't be a problem for her if I build her front porch bench using metric measurements!  (my wife!  :) )

However there is one point you and others have brought up that I would like to consider a bit further.  And that is the point about drill bits and router bits and also fasteners.  So on the bits, is the issue around the cutting diameters or the diameter of the attachment point of the bit to the drill or the router?  And I guess metric bits are hard to find?

And then for those in the US who are working in metric, where do you buy your metric threaded fasteners?  I know for example that I am going to need some M6 threaded fasteners to attach an accessory I am making to a feather key in the side of my MFT3 table.  I have not been to the hardware store yet so I am not sure if these are readily available or if I need to order them.  The good news on that though is Amazon is very quick with Prime membership shipping!  :)

Thanks again!
 
Patrick Cox said:
So on the bits, is the issue around the cutting diameters or the diameter of the attachment point of the bit to the drill or the router?  And I guess metric bits are hard to find?

And then for those in the US who are working in metric, where do you buy your metric threaded fasteners?

The cutting diameter is the issue, as long as you use a 3-jaw chuck, mounting the drill bit in the tool is not an issue.

Metric drill bits are difficult to find but not impossible to find. Try a large industrial supplier like Fastenal, McMaster Carr or Grainger. Metal working firms such as ENCO or MSC offer metric drill bits for metal.

Metric threaded fasteners are available from Discount Steel, Fastenal, McMaster Carr and even Home Depot, Menards & Lowes offer limited styles/sizes of metric fasteners. However, sizes & styles are very limited in comparison to imperial versions. McMaster Carr probably has the best selection.

I find these cheat sheets indispensable. Create an account and request their "Metric & Decimal Equivalent Cards"http://www.starrett.com/catalogs

 
[member=61142]Patrick Cox[/member] don't get too hung up on metric drill bits and metric fasteners. Two pieces don't really care if they are being held together by an M6 bolt or a 1/4-20 bolt. Exceptions would be stuff that comes in metric like Euro shelf pins and hinge cups. But those sizes are readily available.
 
Work in the same units as whatever you are working with. For example, if you are building cabinets that need to be 24-inches wide, use imperial. Then, do conversions or use the other system where necessary. For instance, metric hardware that needs holes drilled 2 cm from an edge.

I think that both systems have advantages and disadvantages and neither is inherently better or worse than the other. Pick the one that fits the job and only mix them where necessary.

As for what tools to buy, again I'd say whatever fits the job. The track saws come with an imperial sticker for the depth gauge, but other tools like the routers have imperial and metric accessories. If I were making stand alone items and my materials were natively metric, I'd get the metric sets to make working with it easier. Sometimes, you are just going to need both.

All this thinking has made me thirsty. I think I'll pour myself an 8 fluid oz serving of Pepsi from the 2 liter bottle I have in the refrigerator. ;-)
 
HarveyWildes said:
The new Festool catalog has a nice conversion chart on the inside back cover.

^^^

Also, as previously mentioned, we have imperial stickers for the TS if you want it. Even though our tools are metric, we hope to be friendly to imperial and metric users alike.

Personally, I think metric is so much simpler, but imperial is the law of the land here.
 
Hi Patrick

I appreciate you asked about experiences from your side of The Pond but...

When I made my decision to switch to metric the UK timber yards were still operating entirely in Imperial units. Even now the sheet sizes are Imperial as the machines producing the plywood, MDF and so on are Imperial, are working well and are not in the UK (or US) and so out of our control. Every Brit on the FOG knows the numbers 2440 and 1220 just as well as you know 8 and 4 (or 96 and 48).

My first couple of years were a real trial because I kept switching back and forth and was not thinking metric. I think that it took me 5 years before I realised that I could only think metric if I did everything metric without converting to and fro. I think that this has been addressed by a previous contributor.

What you are aiming for is simplicity. Adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing metric on a normal calculator produces metric results without having to prove your mental agility by then doing that extra bit to create a fraction. When you have had a long day with the machines and the noise then silly mistakes can be made. I would suggest, based on my experience, that calculations in metric units are less likely to go wrong than those that involve fractions of any kind but especially when the denominators are different.

My breakthrough came (I think it was in 1977) when I managed to get rid of the Imperial only measurement tools and replace them with metric. I now think metric, design in metric, machine in metric and love metric.

I do respect everyone who is either unable to make the change or reluctant to make the change. However, as an engineer with a science background I fully understand why the US engineering and scientific community have made the change.

Peter
 
jamanjeval said:
Work in the same units as whatever you are working with. For example, if you are building cabinets that need to be 24-inches wide, use imperial. Then, do conversions or use the other system where necessary. For instance, metric hardware that needs holes drilled 2 cm from an edge.

I think that both systems have advantages and disadvantages and neither is inherently better or worse than the other. Pick the one that fits the job and only mix them where necessary.

As for what tools to buy, again I'd say whatever fits the job. The track saws come with an imperial sticker for the depth gauge, but other tools like the routers have imperial and metric accessories. If I were making stand alone items and my materials were natively metric, I'd get the metric sets to make working with it easier. Sometimes, you are just going to need both.

All this thinking has made me thirsty. I think I'll pour myself an 8 fluid oz serving of Pepsi from the 2 liter bottle I have in the refrigerator. ;-)

Your post prompted me to make the conversion:  8 fl. oz. = 250 ml
 
Peter Parfitt said:
Hi Patrick

I appreciate you asked about experiences from your side of The Pond but...

When I made my decision to switch to metric the UK timber yards were still operating entirely in Imperial units. Even now the sheet sizes are Imperial as the machines producing the plywood, MDF and so on are Imperial, are working well and are not in the UK (or US) and so out of our control. Every Brit on the FOG knows the numbers 2440 and 1220 just as well as you know 8 and 4 (or 96 and 48).

My first couple of years were a real trial because I kept switching back and forth and was not thinking metric. I think that it took me 5 years before I realised that I could only think metric if I did everything metric without converting to and fro. I think that this has been addressed by a previous contributor.

What you are aiming for is simplicity. Adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing metric on a normal calculator produces metric results without having to prove your mental agility by then doing that extra bit to create a fraction. When you have had a long day with the machines and the noise then silly mistakes can be made. I would suggest, based on my experience, that calculations in metric units are less likely to go wrong than those that involve fractions of any kind but especially when the denominators are different.

My breakthrough came (I think it was in 1977) when I managed to get rid of the Imperial only measurement tools and replace them with metric. I now think metric, design in metric, machine in metric and love metric.

I do respect everyone who is either unable to make the change or reluctant to make the change. However, as an engineer with a science background I fully understand why the US engineering and scientific community have made the change.

Peter

Here in this country, we are still waiting for the teachers in the public school system to finish learning how to effectively utilize computers, so they can then move forward and help the children of this country (and themselves), to learn the metric system.  The soda pop industry just became impatient, and decided not to wait. 

 
vkumar said:
A minor correction 8 fluid ounces (US) = 236.6 ml

Bringing that up surfaces the issue of the danger you face using the common approximations ...

Imagine the situation where you chose a 2400x1200mm sheet that seems the equivalent of a 8x4 sheet. Suddenly you have a real problem when you try to marry it up to your studs with 2 foot centres.

The fact that people often talk about an inch being 25mm (instead of 25.4)  may seem trivial in some respects, but in other situations the detail is critical.

It's bad enough that the US invented it's own version of gallons and tons ... which leads to the obvious question - are Texans actually tall or are their inches smaller [big grin]
 
Dividing 1 by 16 is not easy to do in your head.  The ease of the decimal system is  dividing by 10 or 100 or 1000, just shift 1 2 or 3 decimal places.
 
McNally Family said:
...

Here in this country, we are still waiting for the teachers in the public school system to finish learning how to effectively utilize computers, so they can then move forward and help the children of this country (and themselves), to learn the metric system.  The soda pop industry just became impatient, and decided not to wait.

B.S.
Congress passed a law in the mid 70's, and then recanted when people revolted.
If they could not do it following on the heals of he Apollo space program, I doubt they could do it now... Public opinion is too difficult to sway. It is certainly not the fault if teachers.
 
Holmz said:
Congress passed a law in the mid 70's, and then recanted when people revolted.

[member=40772]Holmz[/member]
Ya you're right, I remember the beginning of the indoctrination program when speed limit signs were posted in both kph and mph so that the metrification of the US could be kicked off...the kick off never happened, the people hated the change. The program never really died because in order to die there has to be some element of life...and there never was any element of life to the program so it just was...and then, it wasn't.
 
Holmz said:
McNally Family said:
...

Here in this country, we are still waiting for the teachers in the public school system to finish learning how to effectively utilize computers, so they can then move forward and help the children of this country (and themselves), to learn the metric system.  The soda pop industry just became impatient, and decided not to wait.

B.S.
Congress passed a law in the mid 70's, and then recanted when people revolted.
If they could not do it following on the heals of he Apollo space program, I doubt they could do it now... Public opinion is too difficult to sway. It is certainly not the fault if teachers.

Here is a link to the actual history of the attempt to covert the United States to the metric system.  It is rather long, so I doubt most people will read most of it, but certainly there is plenty of blame to pass around, the Education Department is certainly included. 
http://www.gao.gov/assets/160/154089.pdf

The answer, which to me seems so obvious, is to teach the metric system to children from the start.  I would certainly not take the approach most school systems take (excluding private schools), to wait and require two years of foreign language for High School graduation.  It is well documented that Foreign languages should also be taught from a very early age, if long term success is to be achieved.

Teaching children the Metric system from day one, would over time, eliminate any and all obstacles the report I provided the link for, has reflected (it is the adults that are holding the process back, not the children).  It would be interesting to poll teachers to see how many of them have a working knowledge of the Metric System.  Until it is a majority, there is no hope of the process succeeding, as they would be out of necessity, the front line in initiating the transition.

You mentioned the 1970's as the starting point for the failed switch to the metric system; well it has been over 40 years now and we are no where near the point of establishing the standard with anyone (outside of the scientific and engineering fields) .  Had we started with the children then, as we must do now, everyone  under the age of 45 would be well versed in the metric system. 

Imagine how much more efficient global trade would be if we were all on the same standard (see report for reasons congress even  wanted the metric system to start with).

Of course, it would also have meant that old farts such as myself, would not not be finding it necessary to take on this new foreign language, this late in life.  I am doing it more for the benefit of my 16yr old son, so he does not grow up with dated and obsolete knowledge, that the rest of the world is not using.  He is certainly not learning it from his teachers.
 
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