Is CNC woodworking?

[Naildrivingman]

If Stephen Hawking makes a piece of furniture without using his hands (because he cannot), does that make him a non-woodworker?

I would argue that the best tool any of us have is our brain.  Some of us are extra blessed in that our hands can listen to our brains.

 

[tallgrass]

i think it is at what level we are talking about. I don't think we would call the guy buys a wood dinosaur kit and simply glues it together a wood worker and or a craftsman? I think the real question is what is a craftsman, and what roll does the machine play? What is the nature of the work we respect and gives value to the object created. An original Ansel Adams print by the  man himself is  different to the lithograph you purchase in the museum store. the same but different. the nature of the tools changes but does the work? there was a time when photography was simply documentary, but not always. it on occasion it transcends. I think that may be part of this conversation.

 

[Timtool]

yes it's woodworking, and perhaps having CNC directly in our shops is the end of a certain hypocrisy.

You may not be using CNC in your shop or projects, but CNC or automated machines almost certainly came into play when processing the lumber, panels, hardware etc... you use.

So we're somehow already all using it, it's pretty much adapt or die business-wise.

 

[McNally Family]

I couldn't find a thread on this but Laguna sent me an email today extolling the virtues of their $45,000 CNC.  That got me to thinking...Is CNC woodworking?  Sure, you have to come up with a design and probably have to get the wood prepped, unless you are doing plywood, and then probably do some assembly but with technology, the hand skills that defined woodworkers have been eroded I think.  I'm sure the woodworkers of the 19th century probably asked the same question when electric equipment began to be introduced.  I wonder where the line will be drawn or does it even matter?  I would love to get a CNC some day when I have the shop room.  The cutting boards that Andrei (MTMwood) has been making when he introduced a CNC into his shop have really been over the top and probably never would be possible without the tech.  Another example would be the Domino.  Floating tenons have been around forever but for the first time, after it was introduced, the mortices could be cut perfectly in a fraction of the time.  Again, does this detract from the artistry of woodworking?  Maybe, maybe not.  Just some ruminations while killing time...

Well, since I can't afford $45,000 for the Laguna CNC, I feel quite comfortable NOT offering my opinion on this subject.

Having said that, if I could afford the machine, i would be all over it (much like I am all over my iPhone, which represents a huge technological leap over the Samsung flip phone I started with years ago).

 

[tony_sheehan]

I'm amazed the conversation has remained this civil..... so far ☺
Had thought it might follow a trajectory similar to a thread about sharpening.

Anyhow, I'm in the no camp- I think there's a certain confusion with some around here between design and craft (but then I'm mostly a hand tools guy so I would say that, wouldn't I? )

 

[HarveyWildes]

Having said that, if I could afford the machine, i would be all over it (much like I am all over my iPhone, which represents a huge technological leap over the Samsung flip phone I started with years ago).

Got me thinking about whether I would or not.  I have an electrical engineer friend who has spent the last two years trying to get his CNC machine set up.  It's a full 4x8 flatbed that requires 3-phase, and more amps than his shop was set up for.  He's been fighting utilities for a good part of that time, and since he has limited time, hasn't got it running yet.  Given his experience and my utilities, I wouldn't go for a CNC machine that large.

Even with a smaller machine, though I might learn the basics in 3 months, it would take me at least two years to learn the tool well enough to tightly integrate into my creative process.  I'd have to learn how to do sophisticated things with the software, and would want to work from models that I created as well as being able to digitize existing shapes.  I have enough experience with programming to know that I can't do exacting work without a significant time investment.  I don't want to spend my woodworking time doing that right now - I do enough instrument automation at work.

That said, I don't see why someone who had the time, interest, and money to put into it wouldn't have a boatload of fun and get some great results.

 

[Timtool]

The danger would be to become slave of the tool, I met a woodworker who started making and installing cabinets, after a while he invested 180k in a CNC center (being pushed by the accountant to keep investing), had to hire personnel to install the mountain of cabinets this was cranking out. With this many jobs and personnel comes a mountain of problems, following up on the jobs, complaints, bad payers etc... In the end he had become a problem manager and hardly did any woodworking at all and just got sick of it.
I met him when he was selling nearly all his tools, he had fired everybody and was planning on working back from his garage. The rhythm the CNC imposed was devastating for his health and family.

 

[fshanno]

Well, since I can't afford $45,000 for the Laguna CNC, I feel quite comfortable NOT offering my opinion on this subject.

Having said that, if I could afford the machine, i would be all over it (much like I am all over my iPhone, which represents a huge technological leap over the Samsung flip phone I started with years ago).

You still have your flip phone.  It's inside that small computer you carry around.

I say that a CNC is totally legitimate.  They used sophisticated technology to build the pyramids.  They used super sophisticated technology to build the palace at Versailles.  And every single one of us uses super sophisticated technology to build stuff with wood.  Even if you have no electricity in your shop you are still using sophisticated technology.  A pencil is technology.  A plane iron is high technology.   

And what's more, everybody reading this is a computerized woodworker.

 

[demographic]

Are you making something out of wood? Yes?

Then its woodworking.  Its not rocket surgery is it.

IMO like.

 

[deepcreek]

CNC is a legitimate tool for woodworking be it with a laser or carbide cutters.

I have used both when appropriate for elements of the furniture I design and build.

I once heard the former editor of a premier woodworking magazine say that using Festool dominoes was cheating because then anyone could do it.

I beg to differ as there is a lot more that goes into this craft than cutting mortise and tenons.

It was also suggested that using a CNC to carve lettering somehow devalued its inherent worth compared to hand carving.

Ironically, nothing was said about the legitimacy of a colleague's piece of furniture that has thousands of pieces of marquetry and every single one was CNC laser cut.

 

[ChuckM]

I once heard the former editor of a premier woodworking magazine say that using Festool dominoes was cheating because then anyone could do it.

I know whom you are referring to. Probably a tongue-in-cheek comment. If not, that's because he hasn't done any project with a three-way miter joint made possible by the dominoes (I have).

 

[Cheese]

There is a similar discussion in the watchmaking industry with one HUGE exception.

PS: Feel free to substitute the word WOODWORKER for the word WATCHMAKER in the discussion below. [big grin]

Way back when, in the field of watchmaking, each individual wheel, dial, axle, screw, plate, mainspring, gear, watch case or hand was sculpted out of metal, one piece at a time by an individual.

The watch manufacturer would order the parts they needed from each supply house/person and a single individual would assemble, fit, and finesse all the parts into a functional watch movement. The person assembling and fitting all the parts to produce a watch movement was called a WATCHMAKER.

Nowadays, all the individual watch parts are produced using CNC & EDM machines. And the person assembling, fitting and finessing all the parts to produce a watch movement is still called a WATCHMAKER.

So, the Swiss watch manufacturers recognize that with the advent of CNC manufacturing equipment, the job of a WATCHMAKER didn't significantly change, only the method by which the individual parts were manufactured significantly changed.

The WATCHMAKER is still needed to assemble, fit, finish, lap and finesse the 250+ individual parts into a functional watch movement.

Maybe Her/His job has been made a bit easier with CNC manufactured parts, however their job still exists and they're still totally responsible for the final product.

 

[tallgrass]

i don't fell a tree with an axe that i i did not make. i have not rendered the tree into rough planks with the various hand tools that i did not make by hand. Nor have i finished the rough timber into a finished product with the various hand tools required. I do not use adhesive rendered from rice, fish bladders and other animal proteins that I grown or raised. on and on and on. how close you have to get to napping flint and boiling tendons is up to you. what i hope is happening is that you are enjoying working with wood , how every you do it and what ever skills you posses and that those skill continue to grow. i am off to get the steam boiler up to pressure so i can get to work in my shop.

 

[estley]

is a dado cut with a cnc less valid than one that was cut with a hand router, which is in turn less valid than one cut with hand tools?.... what is more important? how the dado was cut, or the desicion to cut that dado, of those dimensions, in that piece of the project?

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[ben_r_]

If there is wood dust its woodworking to me.

And whats are all this $45K CNC talk? A ShopBot doesnt cost that much! In fact not even HALF that. Forget Laguna!

 

[Sparktrician]

If there is wood dust its woodworking to me.

And whats are all this $45K CNC talk? A ShopBot doesnt cost that much! In fact not even HALF that. Forget Laguna!

What are YOU making, matchboxes???  [poke]  Seriously, some friends have a CNC that ran close to $60K.  It will handle 4' x 10' sheet goods. 

 

[ben_r_]

If there is wood dust its woodworking to me.

And whats are all this $45K CNC talk? A ShopBot doesnt cost that much! In fact not even HALF that. Forget Laguna!

What are YOU making, matchboxes???  [poke]  Seriously, some friends have a CNC that ran close to $60K.  It will handle 4' x 10' sheet goods. 

Yep, so will a ShopBot. If youve never looked into them, check it out (LINK). They have been a top of the line option for home-gamers for years. Sure you can spend $100K on a CNC router, but if you arent doing serious day in and day out commercial work there is hardly a reason for such a machine.

 

[Oldwood]

Camaster has some options that are quite affordable also.
http://www.camaster.com/

 

[estley]

this guy is far more than a woodworker, but i think it illustrates the point that there's a valid argument for saying that the use of a cnc IS woodworking...


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[HarveyWildes]

this guy is far more than a woodworker, but i think it illustrates the point that there's a valid argument for saying that the use of a cnc IS woodworking...
...

That is an awesome bit of woodworking.