Is pro5 worth $70?

ChuckM said:
Consider this: If I sold one of my Pro5s brand new, unused, say, at the same original price I paid after owning it for just 1 day, should I consider the sale a breakeven, a loss, or a gain? According to your reasoning, I should celebrate it for a big profit, right? In reality, it wasn't.

Errr ... no? My reasoning would be that if you got the same amount of money back that would be breakeven ... and totally pointless. Nobody buys anything just to sell it for the same amount the next day. Odd consideration. [scratch chin]

ChuckM said:
When I calculate savings, I look at how much it would have cost me when buying the item new (in 2016) vs how much I would be actually paying now for it. Why would I use a $200 figure, presumably the cost for a different sander under a DIFFERENT model #, when the seller did not pay that amount for his sander in the first place?

You're not a time traveller, .... at least that's what I assume. So you can't go back to 2016 and buy it for the price the original owner paid. What does it even matter what the original owner paid? If you want this sander, right now, 2019, this functionality, then you'll have to pay $200 for it new in the store, there is no way around it.

So that new price of $200 is the only figure that matters in any cost savings calculation, period.

Talk about different model numbers all you want, fact is the PRO 5 is the exact same sander as what is now called the ETS 125 REQ.
 
With due respect, all I can say is my first degree was a major in Accounting, and accounting has been part of or related to my work (40% to 60% at various times) for the last 21 years...though I am retiring soon from such work. We should agree that you and I are not going to see eye to eye on how the discount % should be figured out in this Pro5 offer, and I will leave it at that.
 
I think no matter how good or bad a used tool looks, there's always a risk/gamble, especially if there's no warranty left. I have repaired many of my own tools, that were bought new, and the warranty has run out. This is mainly because my stuff is looked after as much as a professional working environment will allow. So our tools usually last a long time, and with wear and tear, things will need maintaining or replacing at some stage, especially with age.
As much as I am capable of doing the repairs, I wouldn't buy tools that are in need of repair, even cheaply, unless it was a rare tool with a relatively easy repair.

My time is better spent working at my trade as opposed to fixing tools. That's not to say I'd never consider buying used, or ex demo or refurbished tools. It has to be the right tool, at the right price after taking it's age, amount of use and age into consideration.

I know people who have bought some lovely used tools at very low prices. Sometimes tools that although old and out of warranty, have been sitting around unused and still in an almost new like condition, for sensible money. These would be more my cup of tea, the price has to be right though, otherwise I buy new.

It doesn't matter how well made Festool stuff is, without knowing it's history potential problems and cost layout can be hidden, even brand new Festool fails sometimes. Take a Kapex 120 for example, the older model, If I were offered a used one, personally I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole, unless it was incredibly cheap, even then I'd be cautious.

I agree with the comment about the seller of the sander the OP is asking about, there has been no effort to tidy up the tool for sale? you could say the seller is being transparent, and saying "what you see is what you get" on the other hand, you could look at it and say, this guy doesn't care about his tools, it's been put away dirty, and almost certainly is dusty inside, and has the potential to fail?

When I replace tools, if the old tools that have been upgraded are not seeing use, they go into our storage unit, there's a lot of tools in there, sometimes kept for parts etc. Often I might give certain tools to a friend or colleague to help them out, if their tools have failed or been stolen etc. People often ask me what old tools I have sitting in there, as I'm known to own a lot of tools.

Every so often I might sell some of the more usable stuff off, if so it's cleaned up, and presented nicely and nearly always with a copy of the original receipt.
I get, what I think is good money for the tools, and they sell quickly but, they are priced according to their age and use, and what I consider their future usable life span to be.
I have even given some personal warranty with tools I've sold, as I'm confident they'll last. I've never sold anything near to half price though unless it was very new, and bought in error, even then half price would be my highest price.
I've also thrown some tools away that have sat a long time, out of date cordless drills etc, where the batteries have died, the tool wouldn't fetch much money in a sale. So if they're not wanted by anybody, or no use for spares, they get thrown away.
Just a few weeks ago, I threw out two real old Makita cordless drills, A Metabo cordless drill (POS) an old planer, and some old grinders.

So although I do sell and give away used tools, I seldom buy them. A little while ago I missed out on a used Mafell Erika 85e, this saw had only seen about an hours use and was up for £1000. By time I was told about it, and tracked down the seller, he'd sold it the day before.
He bought the saw, and hadn't put his tax away, the tax man sent him a demand, and he was selling anything he could to pay the bill.
I would have bought that saw in a heartbeat, and for more money, because to me, it was an exception. A great used tool, albeit minimum use, at a shockingly low price.
I am still choked thinking about it.

So, I think you have to judge each potential purchase on it's merits, whether buying brand new, refurbished, ex demo, or used. If the deal is right, go for it, if not, walk away.
After reading this thread, and taking into account discounts etc, and the photo of the sander. I wouldn't buy it, that's me though  ;)
 
This thread has gone on far longer than I imagined it could.  I assumed there would be a couple of replies saying that it's a great price if you want that sander....

Obviously you compare the price to the current price of that tool!?

And I've had a 2nd hand Trion for over 7 years, and a 2nd hand RO125 for about 5 years and both looked a bit beaten when I bought them. Both have been 100% fine for me, weekly use, had to change the brushes on the RO last year. . .

I'd be surprised if that sander is still available at that price all these days later. Someone will have snapped it up :)
 
Yes this topic went way out of hand. Long story short the advertisement for the sander had been up for over a week when I found it. I tried to go get it but it had been sold before I got to get it. Oh well. Glad this gave people a chance to debate their used tool buying methods I guess 🤷🏽‍♂️.

I’m a pretty good used tool buyer and seller just new to the festool market. I bought a barely used trion last year for $150 and I’ve loved it so I’ve been eyeing used festool since. But it’s a tough market.

Anyway thanks for all the advice you can stop arguing now I couldn’t get the $70 pro 5.

If anyone has one for sale let me know 😉
 
CarlsonCarpentry said:
I tried to go get it but it had been sold before I got to get it.

Anyway thanks for all the advice you can stop arguing now I couldn’t get the $70 pro 5.

Well that pretty much answers the original query of "Is the Pro5 worth $70?" 

It was worth $70 to at least 2 people...the person that recently purchased it and Carlson Carpentry that tried to purchase it.  [big grin] [big grin]
 
Cheese said:
It was worth $70 to at least 2 people...the person that recently purchased it and Carlson Carpentry that tried to purchase it.  [big grin] [big grin]

Make that at least 3 people...  [big grin]  [big grin]
 
jobsworth said:
depends, If I remember correctly new the Pro5 sold as a special $100 w/ systainer and $50 rebate.

So if thats the case, I wouldnt think its that good a deal.

Yeah, but you can't get it at that price anymore.

Same with housing... everything build 2 years ago now sells for +25%...
 
Coen said:
Snip.
Yeah, but you can't get it at that price anymore.

Some people complain about Festool's annual price increases...I like it, as when you resell your Festool machines, you can get a good resale price. I mentioned about making a profit on a CT26; a similar story when I sold my TS75 last year, to a contractor who wasn't happy with his TS55 after he started using more and more hardwood (the reason he said he was buying a TS75).

I might not be as lucky if I sold my Kapex given its reputation issue, but if and when I list it for sale, I would sure present it as nice as it can be to extract the maximum return. In any case, my experience with Festool has been that it can be cheaper to own new and sell it than rent (if it were available).

I also have a SawStop which too has started the practice of increasing its prices. But with the introduction of the Felder's PCS, there should be a price taming effect somewhere. [tongue]
 
Everyone increases prices at some point, at least when pricing goes in fake money ($, €, GPB, Yen, etc.)

Increasing prices are only useful if you sell all and then don't use the receipt to buy more of the same.

Same goes for housing;

A house of 200K that goes up 30% to 260K does nothing for it's owner; if he wants to upgrade... the bigger house he was looking at increased from 300K to 390K; meaning the gap increased from 100K to 130K...

Bigtime increase in housing prices is only useful when your (grand)parents just died and you can sell their house...
 
The way I see it, the more people out there that refuse to buy used tools, or get worked up about percentages of what the original owner paid (what if they got it for free? Does that mean it has no resale value now?), or make assumptions about the condition of a tool based on some dirt, the more chance I have of buying good used tools at decent prices. Reduced demand = lower prices.

A clean tool was a dirty tool right up until the seller cleaned it. I love seeing grubby tools advertised because I know the seller will struggle to shift them and will accept a lower price than an identical tool that got a good scrub before being listed. The mechanical condition is all that interests me - My £50 ETS 150 was caked in paint dust and looked like crap, but after a relaxing hour stripping and scrubbing every component (and a new pad, admittedly), it looked almost new and has been 100% reliable ever since.
 
Spandex said:
(what if they got it for free? Does that mean it has no resale value now?)

Let's assume the owner was a contractor or did woodworking for a living and wanted to record a free or donated machine on his or her books, the acceptable ways of doing it include:

a) Use a fair market value (the price the asset can sell for on the open market, given its age, conditions, etc.). Usually, the price of the same machine, if available, is used as a guide. An example: a small business owner needed to record an old car given to him free for his business (and he is planning to claim tax deductions on it). In Canada, one can refer to the Black Book, or screen the sales ads on newspapers, or the offerings from car dealerships that sell second-hand vehicles.

b) Use a professional appraiser. The appraisal expenses incurred are usually tax-deductible in Canada.

 
I'm not talking about how a contractor records things on his books. This isn't a question of accounting.
 
I know you are not asking an accounting question (that's why my comment opens with an assumption to make what follows relevant), but the same principle applies to figuring out the resale value of an item.

Here is an example how resale value can be arrived at using the concept of fair market price, which use, by the way, is not restricted to accountants:
https://www.sapling.com/6673636/calculate-resale-value

Of course, anyone can use any method to work out their asking price. Any method can be right; the ultimate test is if a sales goes through at the asking/desired price. After doing all my homework, I like to start with a slightly higher price when I resell my tools, knowing that some potential buyers would counteroffer me.... Unless the seller states in the ad that his or her offer being firm, often there is no harm counteroffering.
 
Spandex said:
The way I see it, the more people out there that refuse to buy used tools, or get worked up about percentages of what the original owner paid (what if they got it for free? Does that mean it has no resale value now?), or make assumptions about the condition of a tool based on some dirt, the more chance I have of buying good used tools at decent prices. Reduced demand = lower prices.

A clean tool was a dirty tool right up until the seller cleaned it. I love seeing grubby tools advertised because I know the seller will struggle to shift them and will accept a lower price than an identical tool that got a good scrub before being listed. The mechanical condition is all that interests me - My £50 ETS 150 was caked in paint dust and looked like crap, but after a relaxing hour stripping and scrubbing every component (and a new pad, admittedly), it looked almost new and has been 100% reliable ever since.

You still have to take into account, that dust and moisture are bad news for power tools, especially when it gets inside. Some of my tools have notes that say, filters and machine internals need to be cleared of any dust or moisture buildup, as it can lessen the life of the tool.
If mine get real dusty, I put a mask on, and blow out the internals and filters with an airline, many don't though.
 
ChuckM said:
I know you are not asking an accounting question (that's why my comment opens with an assumption to make what follows relevant), but the same principle applies to figuring out the resale value of an item.
I'm not even talking about how someone decides how much to ask for an item. This whole thread is about what something is worth to a potential buyer.

At the end of the day, the Pro5 is essentially the same as the ETS 125 and will sell for a similar price on the 2nd hand market. There will, of course, be people who will pay more because it's 'rare' or 'collectable', and there will be people who will refuse to pay anywhere near ETS 125 prices because they insist on factoring in the original purchase price. But the majority will sensibly see it as a used sander that would cost them $200 to buy new and base their used price on that.
 
Jiggy Joiner said:
You still have to take into account, that dust and moisture are bad news for power tools, especially when it gets inside. Some of my tools have notes that say, filters and machine internals need to be cleared of any dust or moisture buildup, as it can lessen the life of the tool.
If mine get real dusty, I put a mask on, and blow out the internals and filters with an airline, many don't though.
Correct, which is why I said it's the mechanical condition that interests me. The cosmetic condition tells me very little. Some people like to make blanket assumptions based on how dirty a tool is, but that works in my favour as a buyer. Of course, when I sell a tool I always clean it inside and out to make it look as immaculate as possible, because that gets me the best price. When a seller doesn't do the same, their loss can be my gain.

The point is, that you don't know if the tool is clean because it's always kept that way, or because the seller has just spruced it up for sale (like I do - my tools are never as clean as the day they get their glamour shots for eBay). Equally, you don't know if a dirty tool has never been cleaned, or it just hasn't been cleaned recently because the seller lost interest after they bought its replacement. The upshot is, making 'rules' about buying superficially dirty or clean tools is foolish because you might still buy a lemon and you might also miss out on a hidden gem.
 
I'll chime. I'm not an accountant, nor do I play one on TV.  But accountant or not, price has nothing to do with cost--new or used.  Price is what the market will bear.  Period.  If it wasn't, Festool would probably be out of business.

Profitability, however, is related to cost, whether you're the original manufacturer selling through retail channels, or a previous buyer selling used.  You can do your own analysis on the return you'll get from your purchase.  Cost of course plays a part, but so does productivity. As does resale value. As does opportunity cost of buying a cheaper tool that breaks down sooner.  But the bottom line is that if the tool doesn't pass the sniff test in terms of return, pass it up.  Somebody else will probably thank you for that decision. Or maybe you'll laugh at them when it dies in six months.  That's the risk you take when buying used.
 
"...price has nothing to do with cost..." but "profitability is...related to cost."

Wow!  [eek]
 
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