Is Rotex for fine sanding?

[hhh]

==> I really don't understand why everyone want to just call it "Fine" and nothing else ... it's like asking someone the time and getting the response "day time" ... when it could be mid morning or late afternoon.

The reason most formal furniture/finishing texts/courses/etc don’t differentiate above ‘fine’ is vast majority of finishing techniques end the sequence between 150-220 depending on technique and species. Grits above 180/220 are typically post-prep, inter-finish, rubbing-out, polishing, etc...  

Surface prep sanding is either: construction, intermediate or fine.  Construction removes/shapes stock; ‘Intermediate’ removes machine/tool/etc marks (typically 80 to 120 grit) and ‘fine’ preps the surface for finishing.  The final stage of ‘fine’ is typically hand sanding at 180/220.  Most professional shops end machine sanding at 150/180 and switch to hand techniques at 180/220.

There is no ‘very fine’, ‘ultra-fine’, etc in woodworking – these are marketing terms developed to differentiate new products to the general/novice consumer.  Since we on are on a FT site, these terms can be used, but understand that they are completely meaningless in a wider context.  It all comes down to speed of stock removal and residual scratch pattern…. After all, what is the scratch pattern difference between 'fine', 'very-fine' and ‘ultra-fine?’ .

Remember, the goal of 'finish' sanding is to prep a surface ready for finishing and the sequence starts around 120 and ends around 220?  While the rotex could be used for this purpose, it is hardly the best tool offered by FT for the workflow.  If you have limited funds and can only afford one sander, i'd spend the $500us and buy 3 Mirka sanders...  It would be money better spent.

Solid surface/automotive/etc are a different animals and use different tools/techniques…

 

[zapdafish]

I have the rotex 150 and recently got a dts 400 for spaces I cant get to easily with a 6" disc and corners. I considered the RO90 but I just didn't see the need.

For surface prep the rotex rocks. I usually stop at 150/180 depending on the species. I can't see the swirl marks so I see no reason to go further. For large areas like a table top I use the rs2e. It just seems easier to use when I have to extend my arms out and/or lean over something to sand.

For fine sanding where the work has finish already applied I do it by hand as it's normally it's just a few swipes as I am not looking to remove alot of material. I wouldn't use a rotex for this because it is not evenly balanced and I don't want the risk of accidentally digigng a swirl into the finish.

 

[nickao]

You are totally tripped up on semantics. Who cares, fine sanding was probably meant to be stated as finish sanding by the OP, that's what I took it to mean. Fine or finish sanding is just sanding beyond the wood prep needed to start a finish being applied.

The terms are all localized and some hobbyists talk in a different language then pro's as well.

We all know what he meant. Does the sander leave a glass smooth finish or not. Is it a sander that can be used as prep for a clear finish, can you see swirls or scratch marks. Is this thing only good for a deck or can I use use it to sand  fine furniture, that's all that was being asked. Don't get caught up on the word fine..

Fine could mean little itty, bitty or fine as in very nice, but again it was pretty clear to me what the guy was asking.

 

[hhh]

==> You are totally tripped up on semantics. Who cares, fine sanding was probably meant to be stated as finish sanding by the OP, that's what I took it to mean. Fine or finish sanding is just sanding beyond the wood prep needed to start a finish being applied.

That’s my entire point as well – the OP is looking for a finish sander to for his arsenal…. Not a ‘1-fits-all tool’…  I maintain that the rotex is not the best tool in the FT lineup for that application.  Folks are getting hung-up on terms that have no meaning beyond these FT-centric forums.  The purpose of a finish/fine sander is to prep a surface to accept a finish… period.  Some state they can (with the correct technique) do this with a rotex.  I disagree.  In many surfaces, a 5mm+ RoS does not have the stroke to leave an invisible swirl pattern ready to accept a high-quality clear coat finish… Not is the balance/vibration/action of the tool conducive to anything like finish sanding.  I base my viewpoint on years of finishing experience including time served in a NY finishing studio.  In addition, every accepted text on finishing lacks terms like ‘ultra-fine’ or discussions of rotary sanders in conjunction with finish sanding/surface prep – full stop.  The rotex is a great tool, but it’s not a finish sander in the same way that a chisel is a great tool, but not for opening paint cans…

 

[Brice Burrell]

==> You are totally tripped up on semantics. Who cares, fine sanding was probably meant to be stated as finish sanding by the OP, that's what I took it to mean. Fine or finish sanding is just sanding beyond the wood prep needed to start a finish being applied.

That’s my entire point as well – the OP is looking for a finish sander to for his arsenal…. Not a ‘1-fits-all tool’…  I maintain that the rotex is not the best tool in the FT lineup for that application.  Folks are getting hung-up on terms that have no meaning beyond these FT-centric forums.  The purpose of a finish/fine sander is to prep a surface to accept a finish… period.  Some state they can (with the correct technique) do this with a rotex.  I disagree.  In many surfaces, a 5mm+ RoS does not have the stroke to leave an invisible swirl pattern ready to accept a high-quality clear coat finish… Not is the balance/vibration/action of the tool conducive to anything like finish sanding.  I base my viewpoint on years of finishing experience including time served in a NY finishing studio.  In addition, every accepted text on finishing lacks terms like ‘ultra-fine’ or discussions of rotary sanders in conjunction with finish sanding/surface prep – full stop.  The rotex is a great tool, but it’s not a finish sander in the same way that a chisel is a great tool, but not for opening paint cans…

Not to discredit any of your experience but I believe this isn't a matter of semantics.  It's a matter of contention of the statement of yours that I made bold. 

 

[nickao]

I can't argue with that though. There are some surfaces that I go to the ETS 150/3 because the ETS 150/5 just does not give me what I want. Still for about 95% of my work and I work with literally 100's of different woods I do find the Rotex cuts it, 5 mm stroke and all.

I think to say the Rotex can't or is not for fine work at all is generally wrong, as it can do most fine work, not all but most. Again, I think it depends on what a person generally makes and the woods he works with that determines their personal opinion on whether any sander is a so called fine sander. If a person never used a wood where the 5 mm stroke was not good enough then for them the Rotex could very well be "their" fine sander. They wouldn't know any different.

I think your point is by definition 5mm is not considered a fine sander. That very well may be, but I never read that before. I go by what the wood looks like in the end and sometimes the 5mm stroke does it and sometimes it simply doesn't or can't, the reason I purchased the 150/3.

Back to the question "is the Rotex a fine sander", which I take to mean finish sander. My personal answer is it can be for most materials generally used by most hobbyists, but if one wanted to cover a greater expanse of materials up in the higher grits then I would go with the ETS 150/3.

The OP's question is vague. When I first read the title I initially thought he meant is it a good sander. For me the title should have been , is the RO 150 a finish sander. And yes it is for many materials.

 

[Vindingo]

fine sanding for furnitures (mostly varnished or painted finish. grits up to 320)

interior work (drywall sanding, sanding doors and windows for painting)

other woodworking (outdoor furniture, miscellanous items at home)

That’s my entire point as well – the OP is looking for a finish sander to for his arsenal…. Not a ‘1-fits-all tool’…  I maintain that the rotex is not the best tool in the FT lineup for that application.  

Check out the first post again.  Seems like a ‘1-fits-all tool’ would be more appropriate considering he listed 3 separate uses.  

The Mirka Ceros which everyone raves about has a 5mm orbit.  It also costs as much as a Rotex.  The OP made no mention of the a pneumatic sander, therefore buying 3 Mirkas for the price of a Rotex is unlikely.  Nor could I find an electric Mirka RO sander with

 

[Scott B.]

Hi all,
I'm new to FOG and I like to shortly introduce myself. I'm hobbyist for woodwork, have done some furniture and renovation in my home. I try to make top quality and often my wife's friends have admired the results. Still I'm a novice in woodworking, I think. There are times I don't touch my tools in few months, but when I have time I like to do something with wood.

I have separated shop with planer, table saw, router table, lathe and portable tools. I also have a bigger dust extractor for stationary machines and CTL 26 for portables. Quality of CTL is very good and now it is most used tool in my shop. I like it so much that I converted my portable machines to accept Plug-it hose.

Now it is time to move on and give Festools a try. I decided to buy DTS 400 and replace Bosch 125 sander with ETS 150/3. BUT.
I found Rotex and read reviews of it. And now I need some information about quality of Rotex sanders on fine sanding. I have doubts that same machine could not do coarse sanding and quality fine sanding.

Those who have both, Rotex and ETS/DTS/RTS, would you do these job with only Rotex?
fine sanding for furnitures (mostly varnished or painted finish. grits up to 320)
interior work (drywall sanding, sanding doors and windows for painting)
other woodworking (outdoor furniture, miscellanous items at home)

And if you have both machines why you have bought both?

Thanks in advance

Vesa

In general, I vote "not so much" (as long as you are able to overlook that whole polishing thing it can do). In real life to me, Rotex = material removal and I find them to be bulkly and heavy for full time or extended use in finer finish situations. They CAN do that genre, but its not their strongsuit, especially if there is a 2 mm stroke sander in the house.

But of course, the term "Rotex" is a broad umbrella. There are many, many days when my truck survival kit must include a bare minimum of an RO90 and a Midi. Ro90 is a little problem solver that can do alot of things well, but doesnt specialize in particularly anything. So I guess it totally depends on the range you are looking for.

Most festool users would likely agree that they would rather finish sand with a Rotex than remove material with an ets/dts/rts.

Festool is mostly a psychological journey. And of course this is all just my opinion.

 

[hhh]

==> Please share a photo of one of your high quality clear coat finishes.    

I appreciate some folks disagree on my take on the rotex as a finish sander...  I am sure that some can achieve acceptable results using the rotex... My take is that it is not the best choice for a finish sander in FT's stable...  Of course, it could be a matter of semantics... Of course, it could also be a matter of experience...

I can't see a rotex playing a big role in this type of project...can you?  ... Have a nice day...

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[Scott B.]

I think a flaw in the conventional wisdom about Rotex sanders is that they are only useful in the under 100 g range. This is a strongsuit, but so is about 6000 g. Obviously, you can walk a Rotex up through seemingly infinite grit steps and end up with a piano finish using only a Rotex.

The problem I have with Rotex overall is that there are so many situations in my life where a round sander is just not the best choice for my work. Which is why the 90 is most frequently called to the truck out of the Rotexes, but if the dts400 is around, it may be way handier for many tasks, from sanding a cabinet faceframe to sanding drywall. Now theres a task that I probably dont put a Rotex on, and to me thats some fine sanding.

More important to me than the stroke of the sander is the abrasive, its grit, the extraction rate and motor speed. Thats all what determines how the rubber hits the road.

 

[lambeater]

Yep I has a ETS125 and a rotex 150. Haven't used my ETS in a while just keep reaching for the RO150. Using it to fine sand /finish my bamboo cabinet doors works awesome.

thx
Lambeater

 

[Vindingo]

==> Please share a photo of one of your high quality clear coat finishes.    

I appreciate some folks disagree on my take on the rotex as a finish sander...  I am sure that some can achieve acceptable results using the rotex... My take is that it is not the best choice for a finish sander in FT's stable...  Of course, it could be a matter of semantics... Of course, it could also be a matter of experience...

I can't see a rotex playing a big role in this type of project...can you?  ... Have a nice day...

That's a nice looking piece.  The little rotex would be more than capable sander on a project that size, it even has a 3mm stroke. 

 

Most festool users would likely agree that they would rather finish sand with a Rotex than remove material with an ets/dts/rts.

I think this is an important consideration.

He would be able to tackle a wider range of projects with a DTS400 and RO150. 

In my opinion the  DTS400 + RO150 > DTS400 + ETS150/3, based on the OP's criteria. 

 

 

[hhh]

Hay, that’s pretty funny…

 

[Vindingo]

Hay, that’s pretty funny…

Didn't see the second photo.  From the looks of the first pic, I thought you were talking about the dovetailed maple box. 

Its obvious that we understand the initial post differently.  Do you sand drywall with a pneumatic Mirka sander or sand a 2x4 pick-nick table with a jitterbug? 

     

 

[Stokely]

This thread has ventured to parts unknown.

 

[VesaS]

I thought I had a simple question, but there seems to be more passion involving when selecting sander. 

Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate your answers. There was a lot of information which helped me with my decision and give other info as well.

Back to my original question. I'm not happy with my 125mm sander nor my 93mm detail sander so I decided to replace them. I checked FT brochures and did quick searching in this site. After FT brochures I was going for xTS -lineup and after FOG I was bit confused.

So, I asked or at least I meant to ask
- is RO capable for fine/finish sanding, which is my main use for sander I'm buying now
- is RO your preferred machine for tasks/cases I mentioned (if yes, I should go for it too, if not I should go for DTS)
(remember, I was buying DTS 400)

Answers were
- yes RO is for fine/finish sanding too, but DTS is easier to use (though slower)
- yes/no (some of you use xTS -lineup, some use RO lineup)
(finished quality depends on skills and sandpaper too. These are subjects in my next questions)

What next
I made more searching and understood that xTS lineup is more "fine/finish" sander, it could be used for heavier work or larger areas too, but it will be slower than RO. Many use this sander for drywall sanding and found this lineup as a good go to -sanders.

RO is best for heavier work (sanding rough sawn planks, thick layers of paint and for hard material) and large areas (decks etc.). For many this is go to -sander, others use these for preparation before xTS.

Decision time
Most of my sanding work is so called "fine/finish" sanding.
I have planer and table saw, so I don't use sander for removing material, only for removing machine marks.
Because I do have jigsaw, electric drill and hole saws, I don't have to use sander making holes in plywood. [cool]
I like sander is easy to use/control.
So choice was easy. I orderd it and papers yesterday.

Unless you haven't guess it, I bought DTS sander

Vesa

 

[Scott B.]

Vesa

The dts is a great choice. I use it all the time on trim, cabinets and drywall for fine finish sanding.

Just be aware that the smaller Festool sanders have such good extraction by design that you will want to turn the extraction rate down at the extractor (just about all the way down) to minimize turbulence and chatter at the sanding surface. Keep the sander motor speed up and prepare for a clean and smooth ride. Its a great sander for the types of tasks it seems you are describing.

 

[MrToolJunkie]

Great choice.  Also, do not be alarmed if the sander seems a little under powered at first or a bit bouncey.  These sanders have to break in and it takes about 10 hours of use to fully seat the brushes.  I experienced it with mine, but after the break in period it is one of the smoothest sanders in my Festool arsenal.  I really like it for all kinds of finishing tasks.  Have fun and be sure to post your feedback after you have had a chance to use it.

Scot

 

[Mavrik]

I only have the Rotex 125 and have therefore not experienced anything else.
I see that many don't like it.
I have used it a lot in a hobbyist capacity and have got to the most amazingly smooth finishes ... using brilliant paper up to 400.
It is tiring on the hands and after an extensive period does leave your hand buzzing for a long while afterwards.

 

[VesaS]

DTS has arrived finally.
I did just short test, so I know it works. I'll do some testing and give my feedback to you.

I also bought wide selection of papers, so now I need suggestion how to store them. I prefer solution where sander and papers share same systainer.
How you have solved that?
- sys2 + sys 2
- sys3 + diy insert
- dual layer insert
- ?

Vesa