Is there something wrong with my new Festool TS-75? Any help is welcome!

[arso_bg]

The TS-75 is new to me. I bought it last month with the intention to use it in my CMS-VB.
It is new, not second-hand, with a full Festool guarantee, but there are some issues that bother me.
1. The Festool (492217) Clamping Flange does not fit snugly on the saw spindle but there is a little play. As a result, you can move the saw blade by free hand back and forth about 1.5-2 mm. I wonder what will be the effect of this clearance when cutting with the circular saw.
Also, the riving knife has a play from left to right. Is that normal? Should I bother about this?https://photos.app.goo.gl/tSvKxAAMX5nvRv3F7https://photos.app.goo.gl/4r6Ra5Rm7gm6UcDA8

2. I also tried to find out if the sliding table (Festool 492100) runs parallel to the saw blade. This is why I prepared the setup you can see in Picture 1. I took the first measurement then I turned the saw blade approximately 1/5 turn forward and took the second measurement and so on.
For one full turn of the saw blade, I took 5 times the measurements. The results were surprising and I don't know how to interpret them.
First measurement – 0.00 at the front ; -0.52 mm at the back
Second measurement – 0.00 at the front; -0.22 mm at the back
Third measurement  - 0.00 at the front; 0.46 mm at the back
Fourth measurement -0.00 at the front; -1.15 mm at the back
Fifth measurement – 0.00 at the front; -0.97 mm at the back
The saw blade is absolutely flat. You can see this in picture 2. A feeler gauge of 0.02 mm cannot slide between the saw blade and the straight edge.https://photos.app.goo.gl/4gMBe8vrsrxUDgBT6https://photos.app.goo.gl/XwHUWsS9gbQkYmCb9https://photos.app.goo.gl/wuusLSTBfvUheJLr6

What could be the problem? Is there something wrong with my new Festool TS-75?

 

[tsmi243]

The blade- it looks like you're rotating it back and forth on the arbor- which just indicates backlash in the brake.  That's normal.  Axial play would be worth worrying about, but it doesn't look like you have any.

Riving knife- yeah.  Normal.  And disappointing.  Lots of history on that, and no great solutions from what I've found.

CMS- Some of the CMS misalignment is intentional.  The blade isn't intended to be perfectly parallel, it's "toed out" with respect to the fence.  So it stands to reason that the sliding table is also "toed out" in the opposite direction, so the material you're cutting won't drag the back edge of the blade as you feed it through.  Even if it's NOT intentional, your readings are within tolerance for a wood working tool.  You can dial it in by adjusting the plate position inside the CMS frame (look for little pieces of tape stuck on the frame, when you lift the plate out.  Add or subtract as needed to tweak the plate).

 

[arso_bg]

Thak you for your reply!

In general, I  intend to use the saw with the Incra LS positioner on the right side to rip thinner strips of material which are cumbersome to rip on the MFT table. In this case, the saw blade will be "toed in" to the fence by default.  Do you think that this situation is OK?

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

When measuring for toe-in, you're on the right path using a indicator, but it is not useful to measure the blade plate. Instead, mark the edge of a single tooth, take a measurement on the in-feed side, then rotate the blade so that tooth is on the outfeed side and take a second measurement. Your sliding table should be positioned so the near side of your indicator measures 0.0mm, and the out-feed side should measure between -0.05mm to -0.1mm.

In terms of the Incra LS positioner, same thing but other direction, in-feed measures 0.0mm, out-feed side of blade should measure -0.05mm to -0.1mm.

This guide is intended more for full-sized machines, but the principles would apply to the CMS as well:https://www.woodreview.com.au/tools-and-equipment/calibrating-a-sliding-tablesaw

 

[arso_bg]

Thank you Tom for your notes and this wonderful guide...

 

[bobtskutter]

When my TS75 was brand new I took the blade off but struggled to put it back on properly because I was worried about over tightening the arbor nut.  There ended up being about a 1mm gap between the blade and the splinter guard.

The TS75 has a clutch system.  The first few times you loosen / tighten the arbor nut you need to use a lot of effort to tighten it all the way.

(It was the FOG that explained that to me).

Regards
Bob

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

Thank you Tom for your notes and this wonderful guide...

Happy to help  [big grin]

 

[arso_bg]

Today I had the time to make another test. I put a link to the video below:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/dGK5zbMSzKiwfvYs9

Do you think that what you see is OK?
In my view, a saw blade should rotate in one plane.. especially if it is a Festool track saw
What do you think … is it the blade or the saw ?
Is there something I should worry about?

Thank you in advance for any comments.

 

[MikeGE]

Today I had the time to make another test. I put a link to the video below:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/dGK5zbMSzKiwfvYs9

Do you think that what you see is OK?
In my view, a saw blade should rotate in one plane.. especially if it is a Festool track saw
What do you think … is it the blade or the saw ?
Is there something I should worry about?

Thank you in advance for any comments.

This doesn't look OK to me.  If you have the time, I recommend the following:

1.  Repeat the test, but use a Sharpie, or other permanent marker to mark on the tooth closest to the 0.00mm starting point.  Rotate the blade and make another mark at the 0.45mm point.

2.  Make a registration mark on the saw's arbor and the blade arbor hole to identify where on the arbor the blade was for the test.

3.  Remove the blade and flip it around (obviously the wrong way for cutting) and align the arbor marks.

4.  Position the blade and dial gauge on the same side of the saw as the first test and rotate the blade until the 0.00mm reference tooth lines up with the dial gauge pointer.  Set the dial gauge to zero.  The dial gauge will now be registering on the opposite side of the blade as the first test.

5.  Rotate the blade until the mark for the 0.45mm tooth lines up with the dial gauge.

If the dial gauge readings are the opposite of the first test, then you might have a warped blade.  If the dial gauge readings are the same as the first test, then you might have a bent arbor or the blade is not seating properly.

 

[tsmi243]

^^ Do what Mike said

But I will say, the amount you've got is REAL small.  It's 0.015", for the Americans.  And that's over most of the diameter of the blade.  So something as simple as removing the blade, and wiping dust off the arbor might be all it takes. 

 

[arso_bg]

Hi Mike.
Thank you for your advice!

I took the time and did the tests as per your instructions.
I repeated the first test and got the same results – from 0.00 to -0.52 mm.
I marked the spots on the blade and the arbor. ( I expected them to be at the opposite sides of the saw blade, but it appeared that they are approximately 1/3 of the turn of the saw blade away)
I flipped the saw blade with the opposite side up and aligned the 0.00 mark of the saw blade and the arbor.  I could not align the second mark (-0.52) of the blade and the arbor since it was not on the opposite side but 1/3 away from the first mark (0.00). picture 3 and 4
I made the second test and got the opposite results – from 0.00 to 0.52 !!! pictures 5,6 and 7

So I come to the conclusion that this is due to the blade which is the smaller problem. Is that correct?

 

[tsmi243]

It looks like you've tested a different part of the blade on your 2nd run.  So your results aren't conclusive.

When you flip the blade over, your starting and ending points for the indicator will be reversed on the blade- and that's OK.  You're testing the motor arbor, not the blade.  So if your first test was to run from Pink to Black, then your 2nd test should be to flip the blade so Pink and Black have traded places, then run the indicator from Black to Pink.  If the reading is identical, then it's the saw.  If the reading reverses, it's the blade. 

 

[arso_bg]

Hi Tsmi
Thank you for your comment
I understand that for the second test, I have to exchange the places of the pink and black markers. Pink marker on the saw blade against the black marker on the arbor and vice versa.
But why should I run the second test of the blade from the black to the pink marker on the saw blade? Actually, the segment of the saw blade that is tested during the first test is the large segment from pink to black mark (2/3 of the blade) This is the place where I gradually get the difference from 0.00 to -0.52
So I think I have to run the second test on the same segment of the blade but on the opposite side of the blade starting from pink to black. Isn't this correct?

 

[tsmi243]

You want to run the 2nd test exactly the same *with respect to the saw*

Which means from the blade's point of view, it'll be the opposite direction.

 

[arso_bg]

I made the test again, having in mind the remarks of Tsmi.
The results of the first test are 0.00 on the pink mark and -0.56 on the black mark. I flipped the saw blade according to the instructions of Tsmi and ran the second test. The results are as follows:
0.00 at the pink mark, then gradually to -0.20 and back to 0.00 at different spots of the saw blade, and then again gradually from 0.00 to +0.32 at the black mark for one turn of the saw blade. So the total deviation from the 0.00 position is 0.52. I am not quite sure how to interpret these results because they are not exactly the "opposite" of the first test.
Being sick of making tests I took a piece of scrap wood and made a shallow cut with the sliding table - picture 8. Then I measured the width of the kerf - picture 9. The saw blade installed is Festool 493198 210mm x 30mm 36T Universal Saw Blade and the width of the kerf should be 2.4 mm if everything is OK but my caliper showed a measurement of 2.97mm. which is larger by 0.57 mm.
I don't think that this is OK. I intend to call Festool on Monday and ask them to fix the saw.

 

[arso_bg]

While making all these tests a few other questions arose for me. The clamping flanges of the saw blade (picture 10) have some black material on the inner side.
Does someone know what kind of material is that?
Does it compress when the saw blade is tightened in place?
How much force should we apply when tightening the screw? The manual does not say anything about that. 
Can the saw blade behavior be affected if it is tightened too much?
Thank you very much in advance for your comments.

 

[MikeGE]

I interpret the results of both of your blade changing tests as evidence you have a warped blade.  The dial indicator readings change from negative to positive, with approximately the same values in nearly the same positions.  If you were seeing the same direction of movement regardless of blade orientation, I would suspect a problem with the arbor.  However, when the problem follows the blade, then I would start with buying a new blade and repeating the test.

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

I would agree with the suggestion of checking all of these measurements on a different blade, thus enabling you to discern if you're seeing an issue with the saw or the blade.

On a related note, I'd suggest you're introducing a lot of room for error by measuring the plate of the blade. I'd suggest getting a wide, flat tip for your indicator, and just measure the edges of the carbide teeth, which is what ultimately matters.

 

[tsmi243]

You've also gone from a linear error to a curved one- which means something isn't consistent in your setup.

If the mounting points aren't clean, that'll do it.  Me, I'd lap those washers with some sandpaper- but you're still in the return period, so it might be smart to not modify anything and just send it back.  For now, I say wipe them down, and wipe the blade around the hole.  If you can feel anything un-flat about either one, that's a problem.  They don't need to be mirror-smooth, but should be free of any grit or burrs.  Nothing tangibly rough is normal.

Lastly, we were also assuming that the motor arbor didn't move while changing the blade, and the washers went back on in the same orientation- if you make two changes by accident, then the scientific method won't work.  You want the blade to be the only thing that gets installed differently between tests.

 

[arso_bg]

Thank you all for your valuable contribution!
I presented here only some of the tests that I made.  Actually, I made many more trials rotating the position of the flanges and the blade trying to find a position that gives me a satisfying result. Of course, I have carefully inspected the flanges and the blade – they are clean.
Summarizing the discussion so far I would do this as follows:
There are three main components that could affect the behavior of the saw - the arbor, the clamping flanges, and the saw blade. If they are perfectly set up and working flawlessly ( what I would expect from a Festool saw) when I cut a piece of wood (as in picture8) I should get a kerf width of 2.4 mm with the installed saw blade. Is that correct?
Since I get a different result - picture 9, obviously there is some problem. It could be the blade, the flanges, or the arbor. But it could be any combination of these three components.
I started to measure the blade because I was hoping to find clear evidence that it causes the problem. This is the problem that can be most easily solved.
With all these trials I am almost convinced that the saw blade has a problem, but I am absolutely not convinced that this is the only problem. And since this is a new saw I think that the most reasonable thing to do is to ask the people from Festool to fix it.