Is this a dull router bit? Bad technique? Or something unique to pine?`

[Tom the Remodeler]

If you have an oscillating spindle sander, have you considered producing an offset template and producing the piece that way? You'd certainly avoid the problem of going "uphill" with a router bit....

 

[Packard]

The 1/4 micro bits are for light feed engagement only.  You only get less (far less) than 1/8 feed surface.  Any more and it'll kick or break.

That is exactly what happened.  I can operate the scroll saw to closer than 1/8”, but doing so slows me down quite a bit.  I tend to range between 1/16” and 1/8” of the drawn line.  I’m new to scroll sawing, so I expect to improve on those tolerances over time. 

 

[Packard]

The router bit has been sent back to Amazon.  The photo below shows my very first attempt at using this bit.  The surface is smooth, but it leaves a trail of two parallel lines.  Those lines appear on all the cuts.  Not very deep, but very noticeable and time consuming to sand out.

And this image shows when I tried to route against the grain, which resulted in the mess shown below and a violet kickback.

And here are the near-mortal wounds. [big grin]

And here are the two sides of the template.  The heavy magic marker area shows where to use the router.

So I learned here about grain direction and using a router.  It was never a problem with maple or oak, but apparently a problem with pine.

So the problem is solved.

Returning the router bit by brining it to Kohls was a real burden.  I should have spent the $1.00 and dropped it off at UPS.

Kohls moves the Amazon booth every time I visit to return something.  So I end up wandering around the store looking for it. 

I arrived around 11:00 a.m., found a handy handicapped parking space and went looking for the Amazon booth. There are rarely any floor personnel at Kohls.  I finally asked the (very busy) cashier where the booth was. 

It turns out that they eliminated the overhead “Amazon” sign.  They had a labyrinth leading to something called “returns”.  No indication that it was for Amazon returns.  Through the labyrinth I find the booth with a Amazon sign beneath the counter top.  It is not visible from the aisle. 

So now my bad hip is acting up from all the walking.  I’m ticked off at Kohls, and by extension Amazon.

I tried to complain to Amazon.  They make that as difficult as possible.  They have a chat” function, but it does not play well with an IPad.  The status bar obstructs what you are writing.  I complained about that and they arranged a phone call.  But the caller was (probably) from India and heavily accented and difficult to understand. 

Likewise, he could not follow what I was saying and at the end of my diatribe, I found that I was speaking to a dead line.

The next time I’ll either try Staples or UPS (which has a $1.00 fee attached to it).

The updated spell checker from Apple, auto-corrects words that are not misspelled and changes it.  I just typed “or” and it changed it to “of”.  Annoying,

 

[luvmytoolz]

Pine will always be a problem when climb cutting due to the very large growth rings and fibrous nature of it. I can see by the pic once the cutter grabbed in climb mode it clearly took off, making the result far worse as it "jumps and hits" the edge repeatedly.

Harder timber with closer growth rings will always work better for climb mode, but it takes a super strong hold in most cases unless doing very light passes.

 

[Packard]

Thanks for the comment. 

Years of experience using a 1/2” diameter straight bit for this type of work and never experienced anything like this. But as I mentioned before, I only use pine for framing lumber. 

Even under paint, the surface bruises too easily, and the small dents telegraph through the finish.

My preference is maple, but lately I’ve been using a lot of poplar mostly because of the cost difference.

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

It turns out that they eliminated the overhead “Amazon” sign.  They had a labyrinth leading to something called “returns”.  No indication that it was for Amazon returns.  Through the labyrinth I find the booth with a Amazon sign beneath the counter top.  It is not visible from the aisle. 

I'm certain this is on purpose, and, in Kohl's mind, more of a "feature" than a "bug", in the same way that grocery stores place the essentials (milk, eggs, etc....) in the back of the store, forcing you to walk by everything else, hoping that you'll buy more than you planned..... I wouldn't be surprised if they (Kohls) eventually placed the return kiosk on wheels so they can strategically move it around the store so people returning items are constantly exploring parts of the store they wouldn't otherwise visit.

 

[PaulMarcel]

I'm certain this is on purpose, and, in Kohl's mind, more of a "feature" than a "bug", in the same way that grocery stores place the essentials (milk, eggs, etc....) in the back of the store, forcing you to walk by everything else, hoping that you'll buy more than you planned..... I wouldn't be surprised if they (Kohls) eventually placed the return kiosk on wheels so they can strategically move it around the store so people returning items are constantly exploring parts of the store they wouldn't otherwise visit.

ha! I'm picturing a return desk mounted atop of 4 Roombas that drift semi-randomly around the store...

 

[Packard]

It turns out that they eliminated the overhead “Amazon” sign.  They had a labyrinth leading to something called “returns”.  No indication that it was for Amazon returns.  Through the labyrinth I find the booth with a Amazon sign beneath the counter top.  It is not visible from the aisle. 

I'm certain this is on purpose, and, in Kohl's mind, more of a "feature" than a "bug", in the same way that grocery stores place the essentials (milk, eggs, etc....) in the back of the store, forcing you to walk by everything else, hoping that you'll buy more than you planned..... I wouldn't be surprised if they (Kohls) eventually placed the return kiosk on wheels so they can strategically move it around the store so people returning items are constantly exploring parts of the store they wouldn't otherwise visit.

I am also certain that this is intentional, as a way for forced browsing. But I have a bad hip, and it is still painful from all that extra walking. 

If I complained to Kohl’s about this, someone in marketing would say, “Yes! It is working exactly as planned.”

Trying to complain to Amazon was an exercise in futility. 

I will either try Staples next or just cough up the $1.00 and go to UPS.

I turns out that my purchase was from Peachtree, a pretty good vendor, plying its goods through Amazon.com.

I am wondering if it would matter to the QC people at Whiteside to know about this.

 

[Cheese]

I turns out that my purchase was from Peachtree, a pretty good vendor, plying its goods through Amazon.com.

I am wondering if it would matter to the QC people at Whiteside to know about this.

Constructive customer feedback is always a good thing for both parties.

These are the reasons I deal with Woodcraft, if I have an issue with a Whiteside item, I simply return the product for a replacement or a refund. Certainly easier than chasing a moving kiosk around some store.  [eek]

 

[Crazyraceguy]

I would hazard a guess that, based on the shape and apparent size of your pattern, that part of the "grabbing" problem is that the cutter is engaging before the bearing touches the pattern. This is exacerbated by the amount of material to be removed, the more there is, the worse this happens.
A starting pin is an absolute requirement here.....and probably closer to the bit than most factory-made router table insert plates place them. Once the bearing makes contact (and you go down-hill or at least straight along the grain) everything should be smooth.

I know the pin hole on my Kreg plate is rather far, but I generally don't mess with parts that small.

 

[Packard]

I designed the items so that I don’t need tight radii.  So a half inch bit works fine.  I’m going to switch to maple to see what the difference it makes.

A note about the bees wax finish.  It felt a bit slippery after I applied it, and buffing did not seem to improve that.  But when left overnight the feel is smooth and slick.  Very nice.  I’m thinking I should not have tried to buff all the wax off.  It probably would have been absorbed into the wood. 

 

[alltracman78]

I have many Whiteside bits (well over 20?). I've only had one that had a manufacturing defect; a chip in the cutting edge right out of the coating. I sent it to them and they sent me a replacement. I wouldn't judge them on that one.
I also wonder how much of the grabbing was caused by the imperfection in the blade. Sometimes small things can have big effects.

You really should get a spiral template bit, even cutting with straight grain is a noticeable difference. Once you start cutting across or in weird stuff it's even more pronounced.
If you're turned off by Whiteside, Amana makes fantastic bits. So do Woodpeckers (and they can be found relatively cheap). I would suggest a 1/2 vs a 1/4 bit. Unless you need to get into small recesses. They seem to cut smoother.
I would stay away from the insert type spiral bits, most/all of them seem to have the insert cutting edge parallel to the shaft, so the cutting edge is still striking instead of slicing, it's just broken up into smaller impacts vs one large one.

I'm partial to plunge cut bits with a top bearing, but almost all of what I do is large pieces, so I bring the router to the work and a top bearing generally works better for me. For what you do what Jeff suggested may be better.

I'm certain this is on purpose, and, in Kohl's mind, more of a "feature" than a "bug", in the same way that grocery stores place the essentials (milk, eggs, etc....) in the back of the store, forcing you to walk by everything else, hoping that you'll buy more than you planned..... I wouldn't be surprised if they (Kohls) eventually placed the return kiosk on wheels so they can strategically move it around the store so people returning items are constantly exploring parts of the store they wouldn't otherwise visit.

ha! I'm picturing a return desk mounted atop of 4 Roombas that drift semi-randomly around the store...

Hahahaha!
Sad part is it wouldn't be shocking if they did something like that.

 

[luvmytoolz]

I designed the items so that I don’t need tight radii.  So a half inch bit works fine.  I’m going to switch to maple to see what the difference it makes.

A note about the bees wax finish.  It felt a bit slippery after I applied it, and buffing did not seem to improve that.  But when left overnight the feel is smooth and slick.  Very nice.  I’m thinking I should not have tried to buff all the wax off.  It probably would have been absorbed into the wood.

Was it plain beeswax as a finish? As this doesn't last or hold up very long. It breaks down pretty quick if it doesn't have other oils in it. Not that the oil additives on most beeswax finishes make a huge difference anyway generally.

 

[Packard]

Once I understood the climb cut issue, I thought the rest would be smooth sailing.

Not so.

It did not pay to make my own wheels.  Purchasing them was very economical.  They are 1-1/2” in diameter and 1/2” thick.  The axle hole is 1/4”.

My dowel rods are also 1/4”.  Both the dowels and the axle holes are exactly 0.250”, so an interference fit that required a mallet to assemble.  The problem with that was that the wheel/axle fit would squeegee off any glue. 

So I had to purchase a larger drill.  The letter series drill bits “F” = 0.257”.  When I drilled the axle hole in the body of the car, the dowel spun freely.  But when I did so in the wheels, it was still an interference fit.

The manufacturer does not specify beyond “hardwood”, but my guess is that it is birch.

I ended up chucking the axels and spinning them inside the wheel hole.  It went fairly quickly, but a nuisance.

The wheels themselves were perfectly round and the axle hole was perfectly centered (which would have been difficult for me).

I did have to figure out a jig that allowed me to safely cut the 1-7/8” x 0.250” axles safely on the table saw. 

With that done, it assembled easily. 

I am on the fence whether to add a single headlight in the form of a 1/4” diameter oak stub dowel.  Any thoughts on that?

A bees wax finish did the final honors.  I am fairly pleased with the outcome (but not the process of getting there). 

Thanks for the much needed advice.

Packard

Note:  I was in a hurry and I did not set up the auxiliary lighting.  The dark area that almost looks like soot, is just the shadow from the available light.

 

[dlu]

As the others have said, you need to be cutting "down-hill" with the grain. What you have there is akin to rubbing a cat backwards.

Albeit, without the likely attack by the cat 

 

[Packard]

I’ve only owned three cats, a Maine Coon Cat and two Norwegian Forest Cats.  All long haired, and none cared which direction I petted them.  The were all happy for the attention whichever way they were petted.

Perhaps short haired cats are less tolerant.

 

[Packard]

I discovered last night that I have a never-used pattern router bit, with a ball bearing guided tip.  It still had on the waxy, rubbery protective coating (officially, CAB or cellulose acetate butyrate), so old, but never used.

It is a 3/8”, a with non-helical, two bladed cutter. 

This cutter is very grabby in grain climbing situations.  Far more grabby that the 1/2” diameter pattern bit that I have with 3 straight cutters.

Is it the smaller diameter or the fact that there are only two cutters that makes this bit more aggressive in grain climbing situations? 

 

[peter halle]

I discovered last night that I have a never-used pattern router bit, with a ball bearing guided tip.  It still had on the waxy, rubbery protective coating (officially, CAB or cellulose acetate butyrate), so old, but never used.

It is a 3/8”, a with non-helical, two bladed cutter. 

This cutter is very grabby in grain climbing situations.  Far more grabby that the 1/2” diameter pattern bit that I have with 3 straight cutters.

Is it the smaller diameter or the fact that there are only two cutters that makes this bit more aggressive in grain climbing situations?

I watched something within the past month or so that explained that pattern routing with a larger diameter bit will reduce the likelihood of tarot due to the exit angle of the cutters.  This would also seem to make the larger cutters less likely be grabby as you described in my mind.

Peter

 

[luvmytoolz]

I discovered last night that I have a never-used pattern router bit, with a ball bearing guided tip.  It still had on the waxy, rubbery protective coating (officially, CAB or cellulose acetate butyrate), so old, but never used.

It is a 3/8”, a with non-helical, two bladed cutter. 

This cutter is very grabby in grain climbing situations.  Far more grabby that the 1/2” diameter pattern bit that I have with 3 straight cutters.

Is it the smaller diameter or the fact that there are only two cutters that makes this bit more aggressive in grain climbing situations?

I watched something within the past month or so that explained that pattern routing with a larger diameter bit will reduce the likelihood of tarot due to the exit angle of the cutters.  This would also seem to make the larger cutters less likely be grabby as you described in my mind.

Peter

I've found that myself with the big 10 carbide insert spiral cutter I use, if I'm taking off less than 5mm or so in climb it's pretty easy to control and quite smooth. It only gets grabby if I'm hogging a lot more.

 

[jronman]

The router bit has been sent back to Amazon.  The photo below shows my very first attempt at using this bit.  The surface is smooth, but it leaves a trail of two parallel lines.  Those lines appear on all the cuts.  Not very deep, but very noticeable and time consuming to sand out.

And this image shows when I tried to route against the grain, which resulted in the mess shown below and a violet kickback.

And here are the near-mortal wounds. [big grin]

And here are the two sides of the template.  The heavy magic marker area shows where to use the router.

So I learned here about grain direction and using a router.  It was never a problem with maple or oak, but apparently a problem with pine.

So the problem is solved.

Returning the router bit by brining it to Kohls was a real burden.  I should have spent the $1.00 and dropped it off at UPS.

Kohls moves the Amazon booth every time I visit to return something.  So I end up wandering around the store looking for it. 

I arrived around 11:00 a.m., found a handy handicapped parking space and went looking for the Amazon booth. There are rarely any floor personnel at Kohls.  I finally asked the (very busy) cashier where the booth was. 

It turns out that they eliminated the overhead “Amazon” sign.  They had a labyrinth leading to something called “returns”.  No indication that it was for Amazon returns.  Through the labyrinth I find the booth with a Amazon sign beneath the counter top.  It is not visible from the aisle. 

So now my bad hip is acting up from all the walking.  I’m ticked off at Kohls, and by extension Amazon.

I tried to complain to Amazon.  They make that as difficult as possible.  They have a “chat” function, but it does not play well with an IPad.  The status bar obstructs what you are writing.  I complained about that and they arranged a phone call.  But the caller was (probably) from India and heavily accented and difficult to understand. 

Likewise, he could not follow what I was saying and at the end of my diatribe, I found that I was speaking to a dead line.

The next time I’ll either try Staples or UPS (which has a $1.00 fee attached to it).

The updated spell checker from Apple, auto-corrects words that are not misspelled and changes it.  I just typed “or” and it changed it to “of”.  Annoying,

I have had the same thing happen with oak using a 1/2 inch diameter spiral bit flush cutting about 1-1/2 inches in height and maybe 1/8 inch depth. It was scary when the piece tries to climb cut with out my permission and almost launches off the router table. The pieces had heavy curves which meant end grain was added to the mix. Thankfully I had no injuries. I will definitely be trying to figure out some kind of template and work holding sled for next time.