It drives me up the wall.... (the value of a product)

[UncleJoe]

I understand that some people pass judgement without ever using the tools, it is just human nature.

I have reached a turning point in my life in regards to "Tool" purchases. For most of my life I bought equipment based on price, the lower the better. I could afford better stuff but could not justify it since I do not make my living with those tools. The change in my tool buying was gradual. I can definitely mark the first step I took to buying better tools. I was in need of a new lawn mower and decided it was time for a lawn tractor. I have been a life long fan of John Deere as I was born on a farm in Indiana and the first words I could recognize were the yellow John Deere letters on a green background. Well as you may be aware a JD lawn tractor is about twice the price or better than what ever is on sale at Sears. I forked over the money for the Deere. As I told my wife the other day there has never been a time that I fired up that tractor and felt like I made the wrong choice. My wife uses it as much as I do and she loves how well it grooms the yard.

When I got back into woodworking I had an eclectic collection of tools, some Craftsman, some Black and Decker, some Skill none would even come close to top of the line. The Craftsman tools I owned were not even the best Craftsman tools. I took my time and made a few shop cabinets to regain the carpentry skills I had when I worked my way through college as a carpenter. Once I was satisfied that the skills were still there and that I still loved the hobby I decided it was time to properly outfit the shop. As I began to research tools I kept thinking about how pleased I was with the JD tractor. I wanted tools that would give me high quality work and that sense of satisfaction that using a great tool gives me just like the tractor.

I purchased a Festool Saw and MFT and made my first cabinet. You know what happened, I was hooked. I have changed my entire perspective on tools. I know that these tools will serve me well the rest of my life and it is an investment in relaxation and de-stressing time that is well worth it.

I think any woodworker that could build just one simple cabinet with these tools would be hooked. The ease of use and quality of output is the stuff that puts a big smile on my face. I now own several Festool products and will be purchasing more as the need arises.

 

[GhostFist]

in regards to when someone is just starting out in wood working and carpentry, I don't recommend  they drop a pile on the priciest stuff out there. get a feel for what you like and don't like about certain tools, find out what you are using the most, then make the investment. Tools don't make the carpenter, but in the long run better quality tools will better serve you

 

[pugilato]

My father always told me that you pay twice for cheap stuff... may as well pay once for quality equipment (if you have the money).

 

[tiralie]

I wish there was a way to get more people to give our 30-day guarantee a try. To take a Festool for a test drive. It's easy to be a skeptic, a naysayer, a critic when you haven't even touched the product or put it to the test. If you still don't like it or think it's worth the price, THEN say all you want about it. The most anti-Festool comments come from those who have never put their hands on one.

While I believe the 30 day guarantee is a good promotion, I really didn't take it seriously.
I thought there was a catch and the time it took to clarify what I could and couldn't do with the tool was more then I wanted to invest.
Secondly I am not a big fan of spending extra time to take stuff back. I hate making extra trips particularly if it has to be back at a particular time.

The reality is that we live in a society taught to buy on price alone.

or just a lack of imagination...no thought to the possibilities but rather the limitations.

I wish there was a way to get people to give Festool a fair shake. I'm open to suggestions...  [popcorn]

I think this forum is a very innovative way to get people to give Festool a try. I think most manufactures are scared exposing themselves to this kind of forum.
Kudos to Festool for leveraging social media to market more effectively.
Because of the Festool system approach, you need to adjust your habits (a bit) to work effectively with these tools (some more than others) so I do believe more information helps.
I think time and more competition will also help sales of Festool. If Mafell for example was as widely distributed as Festool both would likely sell more products, as it is you guys (Festool) have to do all the heavy lifting marketing wise as to the value of these kinds of tools. I think in North America and the US, Festool is the pioneer in marketing this class of tools.
To my mind pros like Frank Klausz, Gary Katz, Tom DeSilva using the tools and extolling their virtues helped me understand their value.  
Tim

Add the "the new tool for stolen tool still under warranty" or as this article suggests when economy changes and customers are buying less make it easy to keep them happy.

[ Edited for language - Shane ] Thanks  [big grin]

 

[pugilato]

I have been on other forums sponsored by commercial entities, and none compares to this one. In the others, one bad word about the sponsor and/or their product(s) and you were banned. FOG allows all manner of postings (provided rules of common courtesy are observed) including criticism of festools, and presentation of alternative ways of getting the same effect without spending the big bucks.

I admire this openness and it tells me that Festool is so confident of their product that this openness will continue to be allowed.

Keep up the good work.

 

[EWTHeckman]

A while back a fellow at work was asking me about my drills and i gave him the run down, he made a comment like "gotta love your toys", I said "they're not toys they're tools" he goes on "well i call them toys", "I just take my work more seriously than you do I guess then" I say. It was a bit of a tongue and cheek half joking convo in context but in a way it does say something about how people look at their work and the tools they use to do it.

When your work is as much fun as your "fun", then I would say your tools are both tools and toys, especially when they make your work even more fun.

“Find something you love to do and you'll never have to work a day in your life”
— Harvey MacKay

 

[EWTHeckman]

My father always told me that you pay twice for cheap stuff... may as well pay once for quality equipment (if you have the money).

Amen. I learned that lesson for myself back when I was about 15 or so. I was using a socket on a nut on my bicycle which was being uncooperative. In was so uncooperative that the walls of that cheap socket split. I wound up going to the local hardware store and bought a quality ratchet/socket set with a lifetime warranty. I'm still using that set 30 years later. (I did manage to break one of those sockets a few years ago.) Since that time I've only purchased the best tools I could afford; not always "The Best", but bang for the buck is always the top priority.

I also had a plumber friend tell me one time that he never buys cheap tools because his health could depend on it. He said that when you're at the top of a ladder hanging on a monkey wrench, you want to be darned sure that it's not going to break on you.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

I have tried and I really can't seem to destroy on of these tools.

Maybe I should up my game. [big grin]

I know a lot of guys here are hobby guys but, if you are making a living in a trade like carpentry, I would think there comes a point in time where you would be tired of replacing cheaper tools and not have the time for things that break.

I know I bought these tools with the mind set that I would not need to replace them for 10+ years, maybe not ever.

It's hard to get some other brands of tools to last one year of good use.

I rely on my tools and I really can't afford cheap one's.

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

I think Germany is considering adding the "Darcy Warner" test to the list of torture tests for our tools. If it can live through what he does to it, it can survive anything.  [big grin]

 

[pugilato]

I think Germany is considering adding the "Darcy Warner" test to the list of torture tests for our tools. If it can live through what he does to it, it can survive anything.  [big grin]

Ha, that is funny...

 

[tiralie]

I have tried and I really can't seem to destroy on of these tools.

Based on your initial post I thought you were gettin' all sensitive and teary eyed, nice to see you're back in form .[big grin]
Tim

 

[SteveD]

I'm a weekend wood butcher and what I have to pay in shipping and import duty for my tools - and lots of other things-  would stagger some people. (Try over 40% on invoice cost by the time it is landed).
I'm just finishing a job on the house, mostly working alone. Cutting sheets of ply, 2 x4, screwing gyroc (plaster board) to walls and ceiling, etc.
There is no way I could have done it - and maintained safety and sanity - without the TS55, guide rails, the drywall attachment on the drill, the MFT, the sander, the router, all connected to the dust extractor (the 'big sucker' it used to be called - referring to me - until the offender saw it in real use) etc.
Yes I use (some) other power tools that I have had for years - but I always reach for the Festools first. You may have heard about "the Big IF". Well in my book it is "if I was doing that job what Festool(s) would I use" or otherwise  known as "the big F".
Yes they cost me more in the beginning - but I already saved my money back by not paying somebody to do what I could do. The plasterer finished last night (he did a far better job that I could - but I learned a few things watching him) and a tiler may turn up soon. Not Festool jobs (I wish ...)
As always I get to the end of a project and have a few 'I should have ...'. I should have used the cyclone on the Vacuum - but was moving the unit about too much up and down three flights of stairs for efficiency. So there's some replacement bags to add to Uncle Bob's next order. I should have made something a bit larger - and another a thing bit smaller. But overall my conclusion was I did it all better as the tools I used were the best ones for the job.
Lots of Fs, no ands or buts...
Worth every dollar I paid for them.
SteveD

 

[marrt]

I have several Festools (CT33, OF1400, T15, Domino, RO150, RO90, PS300, MFT, TS55, etc...).  They are very nice tools that, for the most part, are well engineered and a pleasure to use.  

However, they are also VERY expensive.  Frankly, I don't even show the tools to most friends because, at first glace, they appear so overpriced I'm worried they'll think I'm ether stupid or status conscious.  A lot of carpenters who spend $99 for a trusty Makita 5007 circular saw think you'd have to be an idiot to spend 5x that for a TS55 "just to cut plywood."  Even a BMW doesn't cost 5X a Buick (more like 2X).  It's not that Festool is twice as expensive as a "basic" tool in a given category.  It's three to five times more expensive usually and that's hard to swallow for many people.  Yes, if I have a free hour, I can usually get them to understand and I've actually done this with one friend.  However, last time I looked, Festool wasn't paying me to tell their story.   [wink]    

One tool category where I will defend Festool in public though is the Festool sanders.  NOBODY builds a sander like Festool.  They are truly awesome.  

 

[hockey_magnet]

While I believe Festool tools are among the best made and are worth the price, there is still a 'tipping point" I consider when buying tools. I'm not a pro and I'm not a serious hoobyist woodworker. I do a lot of smaller home improvement jobs but I still need to ask myself "how much am I actually going to use this thing?" before I put out 3x or more for the price of a decent (what I would call second tier) tool. I bought the C15 because I appreciate the precision and it's a tool that I will use a lot. But I also have a very good Porter Cable circular saw that has a lot of power, cuts cleanly and accurately. To me it would not be worth spending 4x the price on a TS55. for a saw I might use 4 or 5 times a year and in most cases will use for "rough" cutting - fences, decks, etc.. Angle grinders are a good example - you can get a decent small grinder on sale at Canadian tire for $30 instead of paying $130 for a Makita. Since I'm using the grinder for really rough stuff, I don't need a precision tool and if it gets the one time job done, I'm happy. I find that many cheaper tools where you don't need a lot of precision or accuracy work fine and many of them aren't junk. On the other hand if I had a major project that would require some heavy duty sanding, paint removal, etc. I'd probably go for the Festool for better and faster results and the fact that I would have a need for  sander after the project was completed.

If I need to buy a new tool from this point on I will always look at Festool first but will temper my buying decisions with a realistic assessment of Need/Use vs Price.

If I was a really dedicated hobbyist, had unlimited funds or even more so was a pro, I wouldn't think twice and would pretty much purchase Festool exclusively

Chris

 

[Jesse Cloud]

I know a lot of guys here are hobby guys but, if you are making a living in a trade like carpentry, I would think there comes a point in time where you would be tired of replacing cheaper tools and not have the time for things that break.

I hear you Darcy.  But its not just the pro's.  I'm a hobbiest, at my age I've got maybe 10 years of productive woodworking left if I'm lucky.  I want to make maybe half a dozen really good pieces.  I sure as heck don't have time to waste fixing crappy tools or learning how to use a new tool because the old one crapped out.

 

[upscale]

The negative as I see it is, a sales person tells a potential first time Festool buyer about the Festool System. The salesman tells the buyer that the way to get the most out of the tool they are looking to buy, is that they will need to buy a lot more Festool tools.

You know, I have to agree with this 100%. In most cases, as soon as I hear the word "system", I immediately think I'm going to be committed to that system and it's going to cost me lots of money. Honestly, the word "system" makes me want to run for the hills. My tool experience has taught me that no one makes the best of everything, that a professional has to pick and choose what works for him. System? In most cases, the response is "no thanks".

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

The negative as I see it is, a sales person tells a potential first time Festool buyer about the Festool System. The salesman tells the buyer that the way to get the most out of the tool they are looking to buy, is that they will need to buy a lot more Festool tools.

You know, I have to agree with this 100%. In most cases, as soon as I hear the word "system", I immediately think I'm going to be committed to that system and it's going to cost me lots of money. Honestly, the word "system" makes me want to run for the hills. My tool experience has taught me that no one makes the best of everything, that a professional has to pick and choose what works for him. System? In most cases, the response is "no thanks".

Whether you want to call it a system or not, they did pay attention and make sure that all the parts and pieces pretty much work with all the other tools.

Except there is no DC port on the drills. [big grin]

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

Except there is no DC port on the drills. [big grin]

There's no claw on them either but that doesn't keep you from using them as hammers... Just sayin'.  [poke]

 

[morts10n]

" When you buy Festool, you only cry once" !!!!!!!!!

 

[Ken Nagrod]

" When you buy Festool, you only cry once" !!!!!!!!!

Somehow I don't see the company using that as a slogan.  [big grin]