It's time to buy a table saw, but what to buy?

[Kev]

Thanks for all of the input, guys!

It really is a hard decision. I would probably be happy with either machine.

As others have said, the sliding attachment for the sawstop is not comparable to a true sliding TS. It is actually like the sliding attachment on my CMS. By the way, I do have the TS75 module in my CMS/VL with the Incra LS positioner, it's a decent setup.

The first project that I have lined up is to finally build my Roubo work bench with Benchcrafted hardware. Now that I have two shops, I've been thinking about building two benches, the split top Roubo and the Shaker bench.

[member=13588]Runhard[/member] it seems to be settled then, you need both [wink] [big grin]

Easier choice for me in Oz as not only are the SS horrendously priced relative to Hammer/Felder, I personally don't like SS.

Seems many don't want to understand that people simply get pleasure from using good tools [sad] I couldn't imagine someone on a car forum telling you that you only need a bicycle when you ask to discuss buying either a BMW or a Merc [blink]

I do think the point made about considering a saw/spindle combo is worth a few thought cycles.

 

[Lbob131]

One of the things  I like about my  hammer slider  is the precision  with 90 degree cuts. Or other  various  angles.
You can cut a square so accurate  it could be used to calibrate or check  another square.

I know sleds  for table saws  are popular  but  they won't have the versatility  that  the slider offers (imo)  when doing those cuts.

 

[Runhard]

Understanding that you have the 4400 and A3 there are some great benefits to of using accessories on multiple machines, just like Festool. I hope this helps and congrats on your new purchase.

Thanks for this input. I do have extension tables for the bandsaw so those could work will all 3 machines.

 

[Runhard]

I vote slider. I have been in talks on a Felder or Hammer for a while now. I was thinking the 60th anny pricing would have put me over the edge but it really hasn't.

I am moving into my new house and dedicated shop space next week so THAT might just do it. I have also been looking at the new Laguna cyclones as well (if you want to spend more money!!)

Cheers. Bryan.

Hey Brian,

Your comment is exactly my current situation. We just bought a new house and I finally have room for a decent shop and the Felder 60th anniversary sale has me in the market to by a TS.

I have a Clear Vue 5hp cyclone, so I am set with the dust collection  [cool]

Thanks,

Daniel

 

[Runhard]

I faced that same decision, where both are very good options, very high quality, and safe products in their own way when used properly. I sawed about half my thumb off years ago, with a cheap Craftsman table saw, but my lack of sense would have caused this on any saw (another story). After looking long and hard at a SS 52", realizing the slider really wasn't, I found a basically new Minimax CU300 with 8' slide in great shape. I've gradually learned how to use it properly and have been very happy with my decision and results. Unfortunately, I may be moving from where I have a spacious shop, to basically none (back to my track saw), so I may have to sell it. If you want to play with mine you're fairly close to me and are welcome any time to see what it's about.

Tom

Thanks for the offer, Tom.
I actually go to Fort Wayne every once in awhile. You probably just an hour or so away. Is your Mini Max a 5 combo machine? I would be interested in a saw/spindle/mortiser machine but probably not a true 5 combo machine. Do you mind sending me a picture and a little more information?

Thanks,

Daniel

 

[Runhard]

1) Tell me why is it time to buy a table saw? Answering that question will give me a hint as to what you need as opposed to want.
We recently moved and now I have room for a table saw.

I highly doubt unless you do this for a living you "need" any of the saws talked about here, wanting them is one thing, but needing?
I do not need a table saw, I just want one. This is only a hobby for me.

2) What do you make?
After I build my Roubo work bench I plan I make if furniture for my new home. I want to make a bed frame for my master bedroom, my wife wants a china cabinet and so on.

3) How often do you woodwork?
Not very often right now, I do not have either of my new shops setup.

4) What other tools do you already have?
Wow, it would take way to long to answer this question. I have everything I should want or need from Festool, Hammer A3-41 and N4400, drill press and a wide range have hand tools.

5) What other tools do you need?
Well I actually do not need anything but I do want a fully equipped shop.

The guys here are looking at fantastic machines and we can debate all Day along which technology is better and which of those is the best made, but that has zero to do with you buying a  machine for your needs.
I seem to disagree with this. Some of the input provided does help me with deciding what machine I want to buy. I simply was asking for help from others who were and are in my same situation.

 

[Runhard]

For me, woodworking enjoyment has a lot to do with the quality of the tools I use. Any decent drill will make holes. I enjoy the quality built into my Festool drills enough to fully justify the cost. My old Unisaw worked just fine, but my Sawstop Industrial makes me grin like a kid every time I use it. Its quality is well worth the price. Any circular saw cuts woot. My TS55 on an MFT track is levels of quality above a big box circular saw. To me, it's worth the money.

Just a different philosophy.

I agree with what you said. Woodworking is purely a hobby for me and I enjoy it when I have the time. I like quality tools and my wife and I are blessed with great jobs so spending money on tools is not an issue. It's not like I am fitting out my shop with Martin equipment, that will be my retirement gift in 24 years.  [big grin]

 

[Runhard]

Thanks for all of the input, guys!

It really is a hard decision. I would probably be happy with either machine.

As others have said, the sliding attachment for the sawstop is not comparable to a true sliding TS. It is actually like the sliding attachment on my CMS. By the way, I do have the TS75 module in my CMS/VL with the Incra LS positioner, it's a decent setup.

The first project that I have lined up is to finally build my Roubo work bench with Benchcrafted hardware. Now that I have two shops, I've been thinking about building two benches, the split top Roubo and the Shaker bench.

[member=13588]Runhard[/member] it seems to be settled then, you need both [wink] [big grin]

Easier choice for me in Oz as not only are the SS horrendously priced relative to Hammer/Felder, I personally don't like SS.

Seems many don't want to understand that people simply get pleasure from using good tools [sad] I couldn't imagine someone on a car forum telling you that you only need a bicycle when you ask to discuss buying either a BMW or a Merc [blink]

I do think the point made about considering a saw/spindle combo is worth a few thought cycles.

Thanks for understanding, Kev!

I really do not consider the Hammer equipment as being too much for a hobby workshop. Isn't that what they are designed for?

Maybe I will look at the saw/spindle combos a little more.

On the site for used Felder machines they have a Format 4 kappa 40 slider at a great price, but it is 3 phase.[crying] I wonder how difficult it would be to set my main shop up to run 3 phase. I may talk to our electricians at work about it.

 

[junk731]

This has nothing to do with philosophy.
...

It makes sense when one points it out logically.

Hoping the euro saw teaming with SAWstop is for an Erika 85...

Can't see a European saw company making anything work with Sawstop and its destructive technology, more chance of a collaboration with Bosch. I've heard of the Italian connection and saw the picture but nothing has shown up for real in the last 3 years. Like most have said previously the tech isn't really a high priority for the true slider world. Going to be interesting to see what the new Government's policies regarding offshore production will do to Sawstop. Sorry not trying to start a political debate, just an observation.

John

 

[Lbob131]

Isn't that what they are designed for?
Runhard.

Yes. They are hobby machines.
But high quality  hobby machines  that make the  competition  look like scrap.

 

[ScotF]

Isn't that what they are designed for?
Runhard.

Yes. They are hobby machines.
But high quality  hobby machines  that make the  competition  look like scrap.

The Hammer machines are very high quality and actually share many of the same components as the higher priced Felder machines. They use the same chassis in many instances and other stuff is identical (motors, electrical, etc....). The Felder stuff is often more refined and has some nicer touches -- for example, the fences on Felder machinery is actually ground before annodizing so it is dead flat and straight. The Hammer fences are extruded aluminum that is annodized, but not ground. So there can be some slight tolerance issues - probably not enough to notice, but they are there. The sliding tables on the Hammer are the older generation of sliding table that used to be on Felder machines before the new X-Roll came out.

Felder is typically more refined, has more options and nice touches throughout. Hammer is really solid and very accurate too and more simple/basic. For the price, I think that Hammer provides good value. I have had a J/P machine going on 10 years old now and it works flawlessly and has been a very solid performer for me. I could have spent a few thousand more, but not sure that would have given me much difference in performance. The machines today there is even less of a difference in my mind as they have really upgraded the Hammer line over the last few years.

Back to the table saw, I think that having a smaller slider would be a good compromise and give good functionality between a cabinet saw and a format saw. While many think having a big 10 foot sliding table is the bees knees, unless you are processing full sheets of plywood regularly or straightlining really long boards it might be overkill -- and you have space issues to boot. It can also be tiring to have to move a big table back and forth for smaller cuts.

I have a cabinet saw and have used them for decades. But since moving into Festool and Mafell and my bandsaw, I rarely use it - in fact, I have thought about selling it since it takes up space and it is something I rarely need. I too make furniture and all sorts of cabinets and other projects. To me a bandsaw is the center piece of machinery in my shop and I think I could get along quite well with it and my tracksaw.

There is nothing wrong with wanting a table saw of some kind and they are useful. I like mine, but I am valuing real estate more and might get more enjoyment having the extra space that the saw is taking up. But, I have not sold it as I already am invested and I do not want to sell it only to regret it later. So, that is my conundrum. I also have wanted a slider or a combination machine, but when I really sit down and think about it I am not sure it makes sense.

 

[gsdvorak]

I have been following this thread with great interest as I have moved to a new shop and thought about everything from upgrading to a new table saw (leading to the question between SS and Hammer for me as well) all the way to getting rid of my cabinet saw (currently Delta Unisaw 3HP).  I currently build/sell furniture as a part-time business which someday may go full-time and most of my furniture uses hardwoods with some use of ply. 

So far I've concluded that a table saw is easier for me to do certain operations such as dadoes and cutting thin strips, so that brings me to your same decision between SS and a slider.  My question is why slider vs. a cabinet saw?  I have never seen one in action (other than a few short youtube videos) so looking to reasons why I should spend the additional cash.  2 things that have helped so far from this thread is safety (since your hands are not near the blade) as well as more accurate 90 degree cuts (but why?).  If you could elaborate further that would be great.

Thanks!
Gerald

 

[RussellS]

but it is 3 phase.[crying] I wonder how difficult it would be to set my main shop up to run 3 phase.

Not that difficult.  Do a Google search on Phase Convertors.  And go join the Felder/Hammer Group on Yahoo.  They talk about phase convertors a lot on that site.  The phase convertor takes single phase 220 volt electricity in and creates the third leg of 3 phase power.  You get the other two legs from your standard 220 electricity from the panel box.  I'm guessing in reality you put 220, both 110 legs, into the convertor, it creates the third phase of 3 phase, and passes through the 220 you put in.  So you end up with three legs sort of.  Many people have phase convertors in their houses/shops and power big 3 phase motors.  Also do a search on VFD, variable frequency drive I think.  It also creates 3 phase power.  If you look at big wood lathes, you will see them using 3 or 5 horsepower motors and having variable speed.  These lathes use a VFD to take 220 single phase and power the 3 phase motor on the lathe.  VFD gives you variable speed as well as creating the 3 phase power.  The lathes are expensive but the total cost is not just for the VFD.  The VFD to create 3 phase power is probably a small percentage of the 3-5-7 thousand dollar lathe cost.  So creating 3 phase power is not really really expensive.

 

[J0hn]

  Attaching this miter gauge to the saw does not make it a sliding table saw.  A sliding table saw has the slider, up to 10 feet long, right next to the saw blade.  There is ZERO space between the slider and the blade.  The SawStop has one foot of table between the slider and the blade.  This is not a sliding table saw.  Its a fancy, built in miter gauge.

Why does it matter how much space there is between the slider mechanism and the blade?

In Europe - they are not allowed to run dado stacks on their table saw, so all their blades are in fact right next to the slider.  However the US versions of these saws offset the blade about 3/4" away from the slider so that you can mount a dado stack. (if you ordered that option)

Another thing about the slider is the actual fence on the right side of the blade.  In the true European style, you are able to adjust it from front to back so that when you are cutting smaller pieces of wood - you can adjust the fence so that it only extends to the blade and does not provide any support after the cut which can lead to binding and eventually kickbacks which can be just as dangerous as your fingers coming into contact with the blade

3/4" or 12" - what difference does it make.  The general principle is the same.  You are working from the left side of the blade and any 'stop' that you use when cutting wood to length is also on the sliding mechanism (left side of the blade).  As long as the fence extends over to the blade, who cares?

 

[Birdhunter]

Gerald D,

I upgraded from a 3HP Unisaw to a Sawstop. I looked at the
Professional model and didn't see a huge advantage over my Unisaw. I ended up with the 3HP Industrial model that I consider to be a far superior saw to either the Unisaw or the Sawstop Professional model.

I also looked at other brand saws. To me, the Sawstop was the best cabinet saw on the market.

 

[Lbob131]

Why does it matter how much space there is between the slider mechanism and the blade?
John

If  you are straight edging  planks of lumber  on the slider  then  it  is an  almost frictionless  pass through the blade.

The more the space is increased  then the more the slider  becomes redundant till eventually  it would become useless.
And then you  are back to the limitations of a  standard table saw.

 

[Lbob131]

In Europe - they are not allowed to run dado stacks on their table saw, so all their blades are in fact right next to the slider
John

With hammer  and felder machines  with dado facility a spacer  is removed  to allow fitting the dado stack. Though here its known as a grooving cutter block.
Similar to what  festool has developed  for the hk 85.

 

[Elmar50]

I'm in the hobbyist/DIY category and try to keep the tool inventory proportional to other parts of life in the material world. The TS 55 takes care of all my sheet good processing needs. It at times is wanting for blade depth and power but not enough to justify a TS 75. The SawStop contractors saw is safe, compact and has been able to process 9 ft planks of 8/4 hard maple w/o any problems. I dont't know anything about the Hammer saw, but it seems to be a very expensive and bulky alternative to a TS 75.

 

[J0hn]

Why does it matter how much space there is between the slider mechanism and the blade?
John

If  you are straight edging  planks of lumber  on the slider  then  it  is an  almost frictionless  pass through the blade.

The more the space is increased  then the more the slider  becomes redundant till eventually  it would become useless.
And then you  are back to the limitations of a  standard table saw.

That's a good point. 

BUT - unless you have a 8' or 10' slider, I find it easier to just use my tracksaw with a ripping blade.  And don't forget - a machine with a 10' slider needs about 25'  of space (front to back), pretty impractical for a hobbyist working out of a garage

MiniMax sells a 5.5' slider - so you can still cross cut a 4x8 sheet of plywood and it can work pretty well in a garage, but the last time  I looked, Hammer's small sliders are almost too small as they can't even crosscut 48"

Regarding the dado stack - when I was looking at a Hammer machine, it had to specifically be ordered from the factory (sounded like it was more than just removing a spacer) and it seems that Hammer prices their machines at the very basic level and everything you add cost $$$$

 

[Lbob131]

The hammer machines come standard  without dado facility. If you want  the  extra  capability  then you  specify  when ordering the machine  and felders technicians  fit  the machine appropiately.

When doing the change over  from blade  to  grooving  cutter  or vice versa  there  is  indeed a little more to it  than just  removing  or  replacing the spacer.
The  standard blade  insert is removed  and a sacrificial  one  is fitted  and the riving knife  removed  or refitted.  I  can do the complete  change over in a few minutes.

However ..Hammer  Uk supplied me with  the  appropriate  dado  arbour and spacers  and I  removed the old one  and  replaced with the new one.
Its  quite a task  and not something I would recommend  for anyone without  good mechanical  experience and knowledge.