Kapex Fence

[MiterMaster]

"Could" this be an issue - Kapex owners please do not panic - I ask "could" this be an issue:

I was checking my Kapex with the same incra square shown in the attached pic (please note this is a pic from Brice's review, it's not my pic).

I am able to rock the square at several points along the fence. The left side seems very solid, aside from one point close to the saw blade that rocks slightly. The right side there are a few places where I can rock the square slightly. It's not a huge amount of rocking, but it does move.

I would tend to think if everything was truly square I would not get any back and fourth rocking?

Any thoughts on this?

Mike

 

[nickao]

Well on my setup which is not a Kapex it is the same thing and it makes no difference in my cuts. I mostly cut 3/4" stock on the flat so it really would not effect that at all.

This may be one of those times cneville101 is speaking about where the measurements just do not have much to do with the actual cutting results. Now of it were off 10 or 20 degrees that would be a problem.

 

[MiterMaster]

Well on my setup which is not a Kapex it is the same thing and it makes no difference in my cuts. I mostly cut 3/4" stock on the flat so it really would not effect that at all.

This may be one of those times cneville101 is speaking about where the measurements just do not have much to do with the actual cutting results. Now of it were off 10 or 20 degrees that would be a problem.

I agree, most of my cuts will be on the flat, which will be unaffected.  When cutting base upright it may cause a slight issue?  It seems the fence has a bit of play in it, as when I push the upper fence back a tad, then I get no rocking, it falls into place.

I'm wondering if when I cut crown in position if the pressure of the crown will move the fence back, and thus into alignment, with nothing really to worry about.  It sounds from the miter saw you use, you have the same bit of play, which is just a slight bit of rocking?  It's just odd that the left side there is only 1 spot close-up by the blade that rocks, everything else does not move.  On the right side, however, there are several spots that rock - but again this would only be an issue when cutting in position, or baseboard upright.  With how accurate the bevel feature is, I might not even need to cut upright.

Thanks -
Mike

 

[nickao]

You know, even standing up I think if the fence  2 inches or so to the right and left of the blade are square and you hold the wood up tight to the fence at the blade and a couple inches to either side, would it really matter what happens farther away from the blade as far as the actual cut? Probably not.

Now if the fence was off 5 degrees or more for the 2 inches to the right or left of the blade I would think it could slightly mess up your angles, by that 5 degrees anyway(cutting in an upright position not on the flat). My fence is dead on 6 inches out from the blade on either side(non Kapex) and I never have had an issue. I know the end of the fence is way off as this saw has been used and abused.

Nickao

 

[Spike]

I was checking my Kapex with the same incra square shown in the attached pic (please note this is a pic from Brice's review, it's not my pic).

I am able to rock the square at several points along the fence. The left side seems very solid, aside from one point close to the saw blade that rocks slightly. The right side there are a few places where I can rock the square slightly. It's not a huge amount of rocking, but it does move.

I would tend to think if everything was truly square I would not get any back and fourth rocking?

Any thoughts on this?

Mike

Same here Mike. The bottom portion (fixed part) of mine was square to the table but the top sections of the adjustable part of the fences lean back when clamped. The machining of the mating surfaces are out. Only a machine shop can possibly maybe re-machine the underside of the top fence to make it coplaner to the bottom.
I have made Festool aware of this, what Germany does is another thing altogether.

 

[MiterMaster]

Same here Mike. The bottom portion (fixed part) of mine was square to the table but the top sections of the adjustable part of the fences lean back when clamped. The machining of the mating surfaces are out. Only a machine shop can possibly maybe re-machine the underside of the top fence to make it coplaner to the bottom.
I have made Festool aware of this, what Germany does is another thing altogether.

Your removeable fences lean back when clamped down?  My bottom portion (fixed part) is square to the table as well, but when I clamp the removeable fences down, the fences lean in towards the saw table, not back / away from the table.

Mike   

 

[Brice Burrell]

Well, Mike, if you haven't already done so, read the OF2200 curved base thread. Then after reading, decide if you should have made a few test cuts, checked the results and if you then have a problem, start this thread. The point is you should have an actual problem before you post in the "Festool tool problems" section. Threads like this can cause unnecessary confusion.

I was concerned that this section would be like this, less than 24 hours old and 2 cases where a "problem" is posted and the poster doesn't even know if a real problem exists. I believe in both cases the posters were well meaning, but, you know what they about the best of intentions. The good part about these threads is that if people take the time to read all of the information they should know how to properly troubleshoot their tool before deciding if it has a problem. What bothers me about these kinds of thread is that some people with what we'll call "a mind like a steel trap" (as in not a complement) will latch onto the word "problem" and never be able to let it go.

 

[nickao]

"What bothers me about these kinds of thread is that some people with what we'll call "a mind like a steel trap" (as in not a complement) will latch onto the word "problem" and never be able to let it go."

But why does it bother you?

It would only bother you if you are afraid the tool may get a bad rap. I say so what, if  it is does get a bad undeserved rap I don't own  a part of the company and really do not give a hoot about the well being of the company. What other reason can this bother you about. I really think the good outweighs the bad.

You can always call a "problem" an "issue" or maybe he could have stated a "potential problem".

I guess it should be under a thread named "is this a concern for any cutting operations" rather than stating it as a problem in fact.

It is up to the moderator to move the post to it correct location and maybe you just spotted a post in the wrong place for Matthew to change.

 

[MiterMaster]

Well, Mike, if you haven't already done so, read the OF2200 curved base thread. Then after reading, decide if you should have made a few test cuts, checked the results and if you then have a problem, start this thread. The point is you should have an actual problem before you post in the "Festool tool problems" section. Threads like this can cause unnecessary confusion.

I was concerned that this section would be like this, less than 24 hours old and 2 cases where a "problem" is posted and the poster doesn't even know if a real problem exists. I believe in both cases the posters were well meaning, but, you know what they about the best of intentions. The good part about these threads is that if people take the time to read all of the information they should know how to properly troubleshoot their tool before deciding if it has a problem. What bothers me about these kinds of thread is that some people with what we'll call "a mind like a steel trap" (as in not a complement) will latch onto the word "problem" and never be able to let it go.

Brice, I considered this to be a problem, the square was rocking back and fourth over certain areas - that tells me something was not right.  I will now report that I have corrected my issue.  I marked on the saw's base where the fixed portion of the fence was stationed with painters tape (so I could easily re-attach the fence).  I removed the lower portion of the fixed base and found that there were small amounts of burrs on the tables surface, which were hidden from view while the fence was bolted down.  I cleaned them off, re-attached the fixed fence, what do you know my square does NOT rock anymore! 

I really thought this new section was for trouble-shooting problems.  To me, this was a "problem", to others maybe not.  I do not feel there is anything wrong with posting what I perceived to be a legitimate issue.  I did so in a positive, constructive way.  And, now that the issue is resolved, others that are facing this same thing may have luck with my fix.   

By the way, I'm sorry for using your picture, I just realized your pics are copyrighted and I should have checked with you beforehand.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[nickao]

I think Brice just has a fear this section could get out of hand, but after going back to read what I missed the last month there is no way it can get worse than what was floating around here for awhile while I was gone for the summer.

I think you stated it like you did not know if it was a problem. Maybe if you cut a piece of wood and it kept coming out wrong it would be more of a problem, then a potential problem.

As cneville101 pointed out these small machining problems do not necessarily make the saw function incorrectly. Maybe to make this section more palatable for some we should do or show an operation that is effected by the problem (issue) before we post.

I do think an out of square fence is a problem, but as I stated earlier if it is not very near the blade I do not see it hurting the saws performance very much or at all for most operations.

Oh and stating how you fixed it just made your post very worthwhile to me, thanks I'll check my saw.

Nickao

 

[glass1]

Actually I think it was a great post. I returned an scms (not kapex) because the fence was not vertically square to the table  it should be nearly perfect if not perfect and oh yes it will not affect the vast majority of the cuts when the material is laid flat  but when one needs that perfect cut in a tall piece of stock    that 1300 dollar piece of machinery better be up to the task. I think this is the perfect place to discuss issues just like this.

 

[stvrowe]

I don't consider myself an overly picky person however, with tools I do expect them to have flat reference surfaces and square fences (among other things) to within the manufacturers tolerances.  None of us have access to the manufacturer's tolerances for these paramaters so, the acceptability of a particular condition falls to the end user.  Lets face it, we are paying premium prices for the famous German precision and attention to detail and we should expect this on each and every tool.  What difference does it make whether it affects the function or not?  My 16 year old Dewalt compound miter saw has square fences all the way across (as measured with a Oneway multigage and unable to get even the thinnest feeler between the gage and fence) and has been that way from the day I removed it from the box.  If Dewalt can accomplish this on a $349 saw, is it really too much to expect Festool to be able to do so for a $1300 saw?  IMHO, it is not even remotely reasonable to expect to fix a Festool right out of the box. 

I remain a loyal Festool user however, it should be evident that something is amiss with Festools quality control as of late.

Steve

 

[nickao]

Point taken.

 

[Spike]

Same here Mike. The bottom portion (fixed part) of mine was square to the table but the top sections of the adjustable part of the fences lean back when clamped. The machining of the mating surfaces are out. Only a machine shop can possibly maybe re-machine the underside of the top fence to make it coplaner to the bottom.
I have made Festool aware of this, what Germany does is another thing altogether.

Your removeable fences lean back when clamped down?  My bottom portion (fixed part) is square to the table as well, but when I clamp the removeable fences down, the fences lean in towards the saw table, not back / away from the table.

Mike   

Hi Mike,
Yes mine lean back.

 

[Brice Burrell]

I'll address some the points you guys raised.

"What bothers me about these kinds of thread is that some people with what we'll call "a mind like a steel trap" (as in not a complement) will latch onto the word "problem" and never be able to let it go." (he's quoting me)

But why does it bother you?

It would only bother you if you are afraid the tool may get a bad rap. I say so what, if  it is does get a bad undeserved rap I don't own  a part of the company and really do not give a hoot about the well being of the company. What other reason can this bother you about. I really think the good outweighs the bad.........

Nick, I consider this statement (in bold) to be unreasonable, no offence intended. You're a small business owner, what if someone publicly gave one of your inlays an undeserved bad rap and it hurt your business? And what if that person's response was "I don't own a part of the company and really do not give a hoot about the well being of the company."? How would you like that?

I think some of you have lost sight of the fact that, not only is company's well being jeopardized, but that the you can do un-repairable damage to their reputation when you carelessly misrepresent an issue. I'd ask yourself how would you feel if the roles were reversed. If anyone thinks what I've said here is unreasonable I challenge you to post that here and stand behind your words.

So what do I stand to gain from taking this position? The same thing that all of you do. We all benefit if Festool is able to continue to provide us with some of the best tools in the world. If we undeservingly destroy Festool's reputation we all lose. I know, some of you are saying "but he's a Festool reviewer, it's his job to defend them". Well, wrong, it's not my job to defend Festool. I do want to defend them the same as I would any friend that is being attacked undeservingly. I think you would do the same for a friend.

Tools with problems, yes some Festool tools do have problems form time to time. I've never denied that fact. I've answered, probably, hundreds of questions about "Festool problems". Guess what, every time I do that, I'm admitting a Festool tool has a problem that needed to be fixed! So think about that the next time you hear that the Festool reviewers only want to sing the praises of Festool. The reviewers want to help the customers that's why we write the reviews and we all spend an enormous amount of our own time helping people with problems.

I don't consider myself an overly picky person however, with tools I do expect them to have flat reference surfaces and square fences (among other things) to within the manufacturers tolerances.  None of us have access to the manufacturer's tolerances for these paramaters so, the acceptability of a particular condition falls to the end user.  Lets face it, we are paying premium prices for the famous German precision and attention to detail and we should expect this on each and every tool.  What difference does it make whether it affects the function or not?............   
Steve

Steve, like Nick's statement, I feel your's is unreasonable. I don't know how to reply to this kind of statement. You say you aren't overly picky person, I respectfully disagree. Your expectations are completely unreasonable (in regards to your statement in bold). These things are tools, not masterful pieces of art.

I think Brice just has a fear this section could get out of hand, but after going back to read what I missed the last month there is no way it can get worse than what was floating around here for awhile while I was gone for the summer.

I think you stated it like you did not know if it was a problem. Maybe if you cut a piece of wood and it kept coming out wrong it would be more of a problem, then a potential problem.

As cneville101 pointed out these small machining problems do not necessarily make the saw function incorrectly. Maybe to make this section more palatable for some we should do or show an operation that is effected by the problem (issue) before we post.

I do think an out of square fence is a problem, but as I stated earlier if it is not very near the blade I do not see it hurting the saws performance very much or at all for most operations.

Oh and stating how you fixed it just made your post very worthwhile to me, thanks I'll check my saw.

Nickao

Nick makes some very good points here, Mike posted the solution to his issue and I agree that it added great value to this thread. (I don't know how what he did fixed his problem but I'm glad it did.) And he's right, things got out of hand here lately with Festool problems. Some of the problems were real and some weren't. Point in the earlier post was it's not taking long for thing to be slipping into a gray area of "problems". Nick's right, people should be able come here with potential problems, but I think they should make that very clear.

 

[glass1]

hey Brice, I don't mean to offend you, but you in my opinion are just flat wrong.  FENCES SHOULD BE FLAT TRUE SQUARE  IE PERFECT. Please all else is just hot air lets not get too deep as mitermaster fixed the saw by deburring some metal    but is the existence of metal burrs throwing a fence out of square acceptable on a tool that cost twice all others? If I as a carpenter charge twice what my competition charges my clients will be more likely to go over my work more critically.  Would you expect the same quality from a chevy as a mercedes ? The Kapex just is not as good as it should be  yes some things are great  others terrible  I just think of it as a company going through growing pains.

 

[MiterMaster]

Brice, I'm not trying to ruin Festool's reputation or give them a bad rap.  We're all part of this forum because we love Festool tools, I think if we post issues we are having with their tools, but do so in a positive, un-threatening way that it could actually help Festool.  How, well if they read the forums, they can learn some of the issues we, consumers, are having with their tools.  The end result is they can check themselves, and if they find that yes, there are some validated issues being mentioned - they can correct them and have a better tool because of it.

You know I've been through several Kapex's, why have I not given up?  Because I love Festool tools, and I know they build incredible tools and I'm willing to keep trying until it works, why - because I know, we all know, they are the best!

Mike

 

[nickao]

When I evaluate a tool I do not take the companies feeling into account. If someone wants an inlay from me I am sure they do not take my feelings into account when comparing, nor should they.

I do not like any reviewer or advocate of a tool defending the company that makes it in any way shape or form, that is just me. That was my point. I possibly could have stated it better, but again I give a hoot if what I say effects the company. Actually I wish it did, maybe all these quality control issues would not be happening had they heeded my warnings 4 months ago about there decline in quality control. Obviously no one listened because the kapex came out with some flaws.

From the posts here you can see one persons "undeserved bad rap" is another persons  "deserved bad rap".

So yes I may have misstated that, so I will take the words "undeserved bad rap" out and still stand by

"I say so what, I don't own a part of the company and really do not give a hoot about the well being of the company".

If I worked there or had a relationship with the company than I would care and again, that's the point. Anyone that really cares about the company's well being is not the best person to do a review, how can they be. And I am not talking about you at all Brice just in general, but your tone just struck me as someone that had a vested interest in the company getting a bad rap. And if you do feel that way you maybe should step back and make sure your reviews are as critical as they could or should be.

I am speaking from a consumer advocate stand point. As a tool lover of course I want the festools to succeed.

 

[stvrowe]

I'll address some the points you guys raised.

I don't consider myself an overly picky person however, with tools I do expect them to have flat reference surfaces and square fences (among other things) to within the manufacturers tolerances.  None of us have access to the manufacturer's tolerances for these paramaters so, the acceptability of a particular condition falls to the end user.  Lets face it, we are paying premium prices for the famous German precision and attention to detail and we should expect this on each and every tool.  What difference does it make whether it affects the function or not?............   
Steve

Steve, like Nick's statement, I feel your's is unreasonable. I don't know how to reply to this kind of statement. You say you aren't overly picky person, I respectfully disagree. Your expectations are completely unreasonable (in regards to your statement in bold). These things are tools, not masterful pieces of art.

Brice, 
I don't and never have considered a tool (power tools at least) as being a "masterful piece of art".  I expect them to work well and do what they were designed to do with precision.  Given the relative cost of the entire Festool line with respect to its competitors, I expect to not have any major flaws such as not flat or out of square right out of the box.  And that is completely reasonable.  I believe it is unreasonable to accept out of flat or out square conditions from Festool as you can get these features at Harbor Freight for about 1/10 the cost.  If you are willing to accept less, I have absolutely no problem with that.  Just don't call others "completely unreasonable" for expecting top performance for the top $ we paid for Festools.
Steve

 

[honeydoman]

I agree 100% with steve.  we expect the best from festool and we are willing to pay for it.  just like our customers.  if we charge them top dollar and more than anybody else then it should be done right and correct for them.. 

that is why I do not own any tools from harbor freight.  when you buy a roybi chop saw for 100 bucks or so.  and it has flaws, big deal you only paid 100 bucks. 

but for $1,300 and $375 for the table, and $60 bucks for brackets for the sawhelper, and $20 bucks for knobs to hold the kapex, and $400 for the dust collection.. and on and on. you expect top of the line.

everthing should be square, flat and true and no scraping.  send um back until they get it right, which they will do. and most saws are probably fine.  and there is a whole bunch out their sitting in weekend shops and have not been used much yet.  wait and see.