Kapex on generator

[ifit]

Anyone had any success running a Kapex on a portable generator?
If so what make and model was it?

 

[Distinctive Interiors]

Hi ifit,

Did you read the thread/link that I posted up on the GB Crew thread?

That refers to a similar situation to you.

I think the guy went out and brought a 5kva Generator.

Tim.

 

[Trans former]

I had to run my kit of a generator recently
my ctl midi and ts55 struggled and the midi would not start up on every cut, my jigsaw however had smoke coming out the back then packed up. I also killed my battery charger and trend router speed adjuster got cooked.  not a good day out. that was on two different generators..

 

[ifit]

Hi ifit,

Did you read the thread/link that I posted up on the GB Crew thread?

That refers to a similar situation to you.

I think the guy went out and brought a 5kva Generator.

Tim.

Yes thank you

Im hoping someone has the make and model of a tried and tested model to reduce the guesswork

 

[jmarkflesher]

I don't have time to look up the reply now but an electrical engineer replied to my question about generators and differences in sine waves produced. I believe a diesel generator is the best match in sine waves. Also a electronic speed control is most at risk for damage and the Kapex has that. I'll try to find the reply to me latter. MARK

 

[Eli]

Honda EU series are good for anything sensitive.

 

[DaveZ]

Honda EU series are good for anything sensitive.

I can't say I've run a Festool off my EU2000, but I did run a 12" dewalt miter saw off it to demo it in a parking lot to someone I was selling it to. 

The EU series use inverter technology - electricity is generated in AC, then converted to DC to stabilize it, then back to AC to power stuff up.  They actually say you can run computers and other sensitive electronics off them.  They're also amazingly quiet and run for a long time compared to other generators.  The guy I was selling the saw to was more impressed with the generator than the saw   Oh, you do pay extra though - probably twice as much for 1/2 the wattage of a regular generator. 

http://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/inverter-generator-advantages

There are a couple other inverter generator brands out there that are well regarded - Yamaha comes to mind.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

The EU series use inverter technology - electricity is generated in AC, then converted to DC to stabilize it, then back to AC to power stuff up.  They actually say you can run computers and other sensitive electronics off them.  They're also amazingly quiet and run for a long time compared to other generators.  The guy I was selling the saw to was more impressed with the generator than the saw    Oh, you do pay extra though - probably twice as much for 1/2 the wattage of a regular generator.   

In terms of variable speed, electronically controlled power tools, this is the opposite of what is optimal. It is the inverter-generators that are the root of the problem.

Contrary to popular belief, personal computers are nearly the least sensitive type of electronics due to their high quality switching power supplies with large filtering capabilities. That is why they don't care whether you plug them into U.S. 120V or European 240V power.

But electronically controlled variable speed power tools are very susceptible to inverter output from these generators. It causes a conflict with the internal timing of the PWM control of the motor. They are expecting to see a sinusoidal waveform at their input, and the inverter is actually a high frequency simulation of an AC waveform.

 

[jmarkflesher]

See Rick Christopherson's reply on Festool AC/DC to me.

 

[SittingElf]

Hmmmm.....

Wouldn't a "green" Festool generator be a hot seller!

Festool Generators..."Keeping your tools working on the jobsite, safely"....the new 'Sustainer', only from Festool!

 

[ifit]

And it gets more confused:-\

Does no one actually run a Kapex on a generator?

 

[oldie]

Can't say I've ever read anyone saying what make / model genny they use either for the Kapex, or, for the OF2200; 
even after posting about problems on FOG.

Couple of years ago, JMB started a thread about a prob' with Kapex & genny:
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-problems/well-well-well-never-thought!/

Somewhere along the line, he researched it (he's very good at finding out about things) and provided a link
to Honda gennies that he thought worth checking - don't know if he took it any further though.

That link was:
http://ww1.honda.co.uk/power/generators/detail.html?code=EU26i 
Fwiw, Honda Customer Contact Centre 0845 200 8000 - maybe worth a call??

You, of course, will let us know how you get on won't you.  [big grin]

Richard

 

[ccarrolladams]

Folks, my advice is to listen to the expert opinion of Rick C. He is an educated and experienced electrical engineer.

Because I only visit outside the USA and do not work outside the USA using Festools, I doubt that the location generators we use in Hollywood would apply.

While it is common for the dressing room trailers and motor homes for location to have dedicated Honda inverter generators, as Rick said the fact you can get away using those with some computers and communication devices hardly means such inexpensive generators will safely power tools with variable speed.

The location construction coordination trailers all have expensive AC generators with speed control. They do use more fuel, but produce AC as clean as mains power. This is very important because one market segment that has 'gone Festool' is set and prop construction in Hollywood. The movie set construction trailers are sent all over the USA, which exposes temporary hires in those locations to the benefits of Festool and also the need to be so careful selecting generators.

All of the location managers I know will not run the risk of using inverter generators to power chargers for the many batteries needed by movie cameras and sound equipment. They use the traditional motor generators with crystal speed and frequency control.

 

[oldie]

+1

The issue seems to be that no one comes up with a specific
make / model - so it all seems to go circles, with same question
being asked.

Think would be really great if Festool actually recommended suitable gennys.
The question gets sort of left hanging in the air - with no resolution.

Richard.
(edit: as missed big chunk out - lol.)

 

[BCConstruction]

It's a shame festool don't work with a company that make gennys and Figure out a festool compatible model. Then have this as a selling feature of that model. I have heard nothing but bad things about gennys, chargers and tools. I would go out right now and buy that genny if there was a model branded to be compatible with festool tools.

I looked an a 5kw pure sine wave inverter. Was set and ready to spend $4k on a nice setup and then found out that it wouldn't work as I thought it would. I wanted to leave the truck running to keep the batteries topped up when running fans, lights, chargers, tools etc etc but found out it was very bad for the engine of the truck to leave it running for more than 10mins on idle. I was told I needed to fit a module that would idle the engine at 1100rpm to stop the damage to the engine and couldn't find anyone in this area who knew anything about this module.

 

[oldie]

Agree with your thinking.
Think part of problem is that both Festool, and, genny companies
not overly interested in the (relatively few) people who
would be interested; as would take time and resources
for little, if any, return.

Richard.

 

[johninthecamper]

prolonged idling leads to what is called cylinder washdown.how that is the counteracted is with fast idle,expensive to run,that much energy normally. rolls it down the road

 

[Rick Christopherson]

I looked an a 5kw pure sine wave inverter. Was set and ready to spend $4k on a nice setup and then found out that it wouldn't work as I thought it would.

Unfortunately, this has become standard "marketing-speak" by many inverter-generator manufacturers, but it doesn't mean that it is necessarily electrically true. It could potentially be true for some of them, but it would require very good filtering on the output power. But even then, it still can never be a true sinewave. Only an AC wound generator can provide true sinewave power.

This isn't the responsibility of tool manufacturers to be policing. It is the generator manufacturers that are not being completely forthcoming in what they are providing.

prolonged idling leads to what is called cylinder washdown.how that is the counteracted is with fast idle,expensive to run,that much energy normally. rolls it down the road

This is not really applicable to the generators we are discussing here. It applies to diesel engines, but unfortunately a few people have mistakenly re-applied it to small gasoline engines. You don't let a commercial diesel engine run without load, even for testing. So commercial gen sets will use load banks so the engine is loaded during monthly testing of emergency power systems.

 

[jagcat]

Someone made a comment that it depends if its gasoline generator. I don't see how that would effect anything. Personally, I would prefer NG or LPG over gas about 7 KW. But getting back to the Kapex, the smartest way to be safe is use a O'Scope and measure the output of the Generator. This will allow you to see how clean the waveform is. Most people don't own an O'Scope so this may not be an easy as it seems. Maybe, check with a local High School or Community College.
What about contacting Festool and see if they have done any testing using Generators?

Kevin

 

[Laminator]

I have run my Kapex/ct26 a few times as well as my ts55/ct26 numerous time on my paralleled honda eu2000's.  Don't recall any problems and would not hesitate to use this combo any time I needed to.