Kapex up in smoke 4th time

[mikeyr]

have to agree with a few posters here.  I was ready to buy a Kapex but now I am looking at alternatives.  I know there are thousands of them out there working for years, but there also seem to be quite a few that are not working.  If Festool does not talk to us, we will make up our own numbers and scare ourselves.  I don't want to risk being one those that don't work so I am looking at alternatives.

Instead of ignoring the problem, Festool needs to take a business 101 class, one of the things they will learn is "talk to your customers, if you ignore them, your competition will talk to them"  Only Festool knows the seriousness of this problem and only they know if it is even a real problem or a internet problem.  One of the problems with the internet is that when things are working fine, most people don't go on the net and say so, when they don't work the net is the first place they complain, so sometimes things appear worse than they really are, but in this case the silence from Festool makes it appear true.

I will be buying the competition since they are talking to me...let me tell you a story...At the last dealer day at my local tool store (a dealer day is a day where company representatives show up and talk and demo their tools, usually goes along with a BBQ so I go there for lunch ) I was looking at the Makita saw and mentioned I was thinking Kapex, the Makita representative told me to google Kapex motor failures and compare that to a google of Makita motor failures, hint that was the competition talking to me.  Festool didnt have a rep at this dealer day so the store had their Festool salesdroid there and his answer to that was that Festool would take care of it while under warranty but could not answer my question about what happens after the warranty, except to say that Festool is one of the best.

Right now, I am still getting by with my 12" slider but I really need better accuracy (repeatability)

 

[charley1968]

Thanks, @Seth

 

[RKA]

In fairness, you were using the wrong term for Makita. It's arbor runout and that should return plenty of results.

It's hard to understand the magnitude of such issues. The manufacturer has an opportunity to do something here, unfortunately the fear (and consequence) of saying the wrong thing paralyzes most. It really would be nice to hear something though.

 

[mikeyr]

In fairness, you were using the wrong term for Makita. It's arbor runout and that should return plenty of results.

Yes that search does return plenty.

 

[Rob in Vancouver]

Where there is smoke there is a Kapex.

Is the Kapex the equivalent of the Volkswagen emisions scandal?

 

[Cheese]

Is the Kapex the equivalent of the Volkswagen emmsion scandal?

Probably not...one is the disregard for federal law whereas the other is a disregard for common courtesy and admission of culpability.

 

[GarryMartin]

I try to keep out of these discussions, but this one I'm intrigued with.

I'm not a statistician, so I can only go by "gut feel", but having four motor replacements on one Kapex would either mean [member=41893]Rollin22Petes[/member] is incredibly unlucky, or there's an external influence of some sort that affects these motors in a way Festool hasn't designed for. It seems to be in Festool's best interest to identify this external influence as anecdotally it doesn't affect other equipment in the same location used in the same way with the same frequency.

Perhaps with the previous service records for this Kapex, the latest motor failure as evidence that can be investigated thoroughly, and the support of [member=41893]Rollin22Petes[/member] in any local investigation, Festool could take the opportunity to engage an appropriate contractor to analyse things like the local power supply provision etc. to see if an issue or pattern can be identified.

Assuming of course an issue hasn't already been identified that isn't being publicly disclosed.

Is that something you'd be interested in pursuing [member=57769]TylerC[/member]? And reporting publicly?

If not, perhaps someone suitably qualified could provide a quote for this sort of investigation and we could crowd fund it? I'd contribute.

I'd like to find some sort of resolution to this particular ongoing issue because, even though I'm not personally affected by it(disclosure: my KAPEX is 230V and works brilliantly),  I am disappointed that Festool are not more forthcoming with information, especially given previous threads where we've been led to believe we would receive some feedback when experiences were asked for.

It doesn't put me off buying a KAPEX, but it does detract from my expectation of Festool with regard to how important their customer voice is. And that dissatisfaction spreads to more than just a single product, and it grows whilst the vacuum of official investigation and response continues.

I hold you up to high standards Festool; don't disappoint.

 

[TylerC]

Is that something you'd be interested in pursuing [member=57769]TylerC[/member]? And reporting publicly?

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, Festool is taking a very serious look at all of this.
At the risk of sounds like a cop on a bad TV show, we can't comment on an ongoing investigation.

A lot of work is being done to get an accurate sense of all angles of this. (How common are these issues? Why are they happening? If improvements need to be made to the KS 120, what should they be?) Getting comprehensive and accurate answers to these questions takes some time, and it would be inappropriate for us to comment on them at least until we have final answers.

 

[bobfog]

Is that something you'd be interested in pursuing [member=57769]TylerC[/member]? And reporting publicly?

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, Festool is taking a very serious look at all of this.
At the risk of sounds like a cop on a bad TV show, we can't comment on an ongoing investigation.

A lot of work is being done to get an accurate sense of all angles of this. (How common are these issues? Why are they happening? If improvements need to be made to the KS 120, what should they be?) Getting comprehensive and accurate answers to these questions takes some time, and it would be inappropriate for us to comment on them at least until we have final answers.

What you say makes perfect sense and is largely a rational response. However to say it "takes some time" is underplaying just how slowly Festool are moving with this - glacial erosion springs to mind.

They're basic  electrical  motors we're talking about diagnosing here, not the formula for perpetual motion!

 

[Holmz]

You had a very articulate and well reasoned post.

However... With respect to this part:

...
If not, perhaps someone suitably qualified could provide a quote for this sort of investigation and we could crowd fund it? I'd contribute.
...

Implicitly suggesting that FOG crowd source it in some "pay it forward" scheme just goes against my grain.
It is Festool's total responsibility and total profit, so IMO they should solely fund Festool's analysis.

The space shuttle, being funded by NASA (Via taxes)... I am fine with funding (as it generally helps all of mankind), but Festool's motor failures analysis only helps Festool.
Therefore I feel no responsibility to in any way guide Festool or fund their analysis.

If a University were working on some new motor for the general populous or mankind, then I would be open to hearing their arguments and pleas for funding.

At this point I would just buy a Metabo or a Bosch, and for a Hybrid a Tesla, Honda, or Prius... Assuming that Chev/Ford are not making a viable motors.

 

[travisj]

I have come close to pulling the trigger on a Kapex several times.  It seems every time I get myself talked into it, more issues arise on the Fog or other online resources and I back off again.  My dealer hasn't had any issues with any of the Kapex's he is aware of, but he understands my hesitation.  Our local Festool Rep is no longer with the company, so that resource is at this point invalid.  Festool's internal investigation seems to be taking an eternity.  It almost seems that if they keep the investigation ongoing, eventually it will be irrelevant.

Between the Pro5 sanders that are/were messed up and the Kapex issues, Festool isn't coming off with the best quality representation as they push into the imperial market.

As for Garry's crowd funding idea, that fund is fully funded by the profit to Festool from everyone who purchased a Kapex.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[fritter63]

Is it always plugged into the same outlet ? Could it be that the circuit has it's common and power wires switched? Could be burning out the motor?

 

[Holmz]

Is it always plugged into the same outlet ? Could it be that the circuit has it's common and power wires switched? Could be burning out the motor?

Sure it is possible in theory.
Perhaps he could run other tools on the circuit?
Without someone with an oscilloscope inline with the saw, can provide the traces, then I cannot say it is not it is not the power.

However with all the electronics in the tools, as well as the tools being 'for professionals'... then one would assume that they should be able to run (for instance) on gen-sets and in industrial situations.
Ideally the tool would have protective circuits to save them such as 'over temp' sensors, as many tools do have.

 

[southrider]

This is not the only person reporting motor failures on a Kapex. Focusing so much on his environment seems pretty short sighted.

I've only worked with one on a limited basis for a few days, but the impression I came away with of them was that they seemed to not be high quality units. This is only based upon my ephemeral gut feelings of the sound, feel, & appearance of using one, and has no factual basis. They feel gimmicky and flimsy to me compared to other units that seem to be considerably more robust. My Bosch Glide saw just "sounds" and "feels" to be a sturdier saw.

I get the same feelings about my TS55 as I did about the Kapex. It just doesn't "seem" up to the task compared to the Dewalt track saw that I sold in order to buy it. It sounds and feels under-powered and always straining compared to the Dewalt motor. Perhaps this is just because the Dewalt is between the 55 & 75 in size and power, but I wish I still had my Dewalt.

I am enjoying the Festool "system", and the 55 is doing everything I ask of it. It just doesn't intrinsically give the feeling of confidence that other branded tools give me. Festool motors just sound and feel weak or under powered for the job to me.

Oddly enough my new OF2200 is exactly the opposite, and instills complete confidence in it's abilities, and stands out as the premier product in it's class.

Bottom line - this continuing saga over reports of multiple Kapex owners reporting problems, and the seeming recalcitrance of Festool to make those owners whole, casts a poor light on them. This is a company that asks a premium price for it's products, and sells itself on superior quality and service.

The recent entry of other competitors (IE: Mafell), the discounting by Festool worldwide except North America, and the lack of concrete action is disconcerting to say the least.

When you return a product multiple times for the same issue and the problem keeps resurfacing it may fall under the "lemon" law in the state where it was purchased. In Louisiana, where I am, it is 3 times.

Most reputable dealers would replace the product or buy it back after 3 unsuccessful attempts at repair.

I for one have no interest in a Kapex until a major retrofit is announced AND proves successful, or a new model replaces it and proves successful.

No matter how many bells and whistles you hang off of it....

 

[Paul G]

If this results in a product recall we may never know what exactly was wrong, much like we never heard why the TS55 was recalled.

 

[semenza]

If this results in a product recall we may never know what exactly was wrong, much like we never heard why the TS55 was recalled.

Just for the record ..................

Quote from the TS55REQ Recall notice posted on FOG under the board heading for the recall.

            "The FastFix plunge lock may engage when not intended, causing the saw blade to remain exposed from the housing following completion of the plunge cut."
http://festoolownersgroup.com/ts-55-req-recall/important-product-safety-recall-notice-ts-55-req/

Seth

 

[Paul G]

Thanks Seth. In the midst of it the cause was quite mysterious, and I'm not sure what part was changed.

 

[SS Teach]

Because of space, cost, and what I read in FOG, I went with the Bosch Glide.

 

[jeh]

The recent entry of other competitors (IE: Mafell), the discounting by Festool worldwide except North America, and the lack of concrete action is disconcerting to say the least.

Mafell is not even close to being a recent entry. Been available for sale in the US for a very long time. There was only one reseller until recently and even the second one is just reselling for the first (Timberwolf Tools). Prior to Timberwolf there was another company.

Festool has a massive array of tools and accessories, which may be the problem (engineering time spread too thin). If you look at a company like Mafell they don't make a huge selection of anything and have very few accessories for the tools they do make.

 

[ben_r_]

Because of space, cost, and what I read in FOG, I went with the Bosch Glide.

Same here. Plus with AcmeTools holiday 20% off coupon I was able to get the GCM12SD for $450 shipped! Couldnt pass it up!