Kapex Vertical Handle

[semenza]

      In addition to ergonomics I had thought that a vertical handle was to reduce the possibility of even slight deflection due to an offset or still centered but wide handle. The handle being centered over the blade removing (or lessening) any amount of offset torque/ force /  twist / whatever you want to call it being introduced while making the cut. Thus improving the quality , accuracy, consistency of the cut. 

Seth

 

[antss]

Seth , not sure I'd hold much credence to that.  If the tubes and bearings on a saw are deflected because of hand orientation - then they are substandard.

I'm not sure the problem is a straight computation either.  Did you account for the different force directions the human arm / hand naturally may have in vertical vs. horizontal grasp ?

From my personal standpoint , my grasp seems be more fluid when at an angle.  About midway between a vertical handle and a horizontal.  I'm sure somebody somewhere has made a study of these ergonomics. 

I think Bosch had a saw a while back with an adjustable handle. Clearly it wasn't must have because they don't sell it anymore and no seems to have copied it.  I also find it interesting that very few saws have a vertical handle now.  If that were really better , I'm sure those big giant tool co.'s marketeers would be all over it trying to gain theirs an advantage. 

My conclusion is that most guys prefer the horizontal orientation.  Of course that conclusion could very well be false. 

 

[semenza]

    Like I said  "I had thought". I know I read that somewhere a long time ago. Plus it actually does just make sense, at least from my own experience  in using both types.

    From a purely gripping stand point I prefer the horizontal handle too. At least I thought I did.  After using the Kapex for a while ..... I don't much care in the end. I do find the vertical handle useful at times when I am actually using my left  hand to make a cut even though I am right handed.

    I don't think that if the tubes, head, handle and all, allowed a bit of flex to transmit to the blade and cause some deflection that it means they are substandard. I am not talking about visibly seeing the unit bend. I am talking about very small fractions of an inch. You don't think that pushing a little more on one side of a horizontal handle especially when the head is pulled all the way forward can do that? I do think it could happen with vertical handle as well, but I also think it is much less likely.

    I realize that there are all kinds of body mechanics involved here, including whether you are stand directly in front of the saw or to one side. But, yes, I am sure beyond any doubt what so ever I accounted for everything.  [scratch chin]

Seth

 

[Stephen B]

[size=13pt]I am somewhat ambidextrous and prefer a vertical handle. Both my Makita, and the saws at work are vertical. Like [member=1619]SRSemenza[/member]  I see this as a personal thing. It might be what you are used too, or the saw you started with.  On the few ocaisions I have used a horizontal handle I found it strange.

 

[Cheese]

You don't think that pushing a little more on one side of a horizontal handle especially when the head is pulled all the way forward can do that? I do think it could happen with vertical handle as well, but I also think it is much less likely.

There will always be some amount of movement & flexing. So I decided to find out how much. With the indicator at the fence it amounted to .005-.009". Moving the indicator 3 1/2" from the fence it became .007-.016". Even just resting my hand on the handle it moved +/- .003".

 

[antss]

I guess we're just going to have to disagree on this.

If you can slightly move the saw carriage through sub conscience hand movements ( or even conscience)  and affect your cut / miter so as to make the joint sloppy - then yes your saw is just not stout enough. 

I'd have to concede that such a thing is possible. Cheese has just shown it to be so.  But, it would be so on a vertical or horiz. handle and on a kapex as well as other saws too as long as we're discussing theory. 

[member=44099]Cheese[/member] - is this affecting your cuts ?

 

[aloysius]

The point about flex is a valid one.  The repeatability of cuts can be compromised by deflection within metal castings, fabrications & extrusions.  Sometimes I find the inconsistencies in repetitive multiple rebating cuts when making the very long tenons of a trad. 4 or 6 panel door can become irksome.  However, I'd contend that the overall awkwardness of ambidextrous handles will exacerbate rather than diminish this bias.

Prevaricate around the issue all you wish:  a horizontal grip will remain stronger, safer @ more secure than the alternative.    A stronger, safer & more secure grip is intuitively (or at the very least anecdotally) automatically less deflective when performing the quadratic action (ergonomically similar to that of rowing a boat) of operating an SCMS.  I offer no proofs here other than personal observation, yet the natural, intuitive and comfort advantages of a "normal" grip orientation requires less attention spent on locating & manipulating the controls, & a greater commensurate attention paid to alignment, seating and hand clamping of the workpiece.

EDIT> untoward comments have been removed.

 

[Cheese]

Forgive me for my lack of understanding when it comes to these posted measurements of deflection.  When measurements are taken to hundredths or thousands of an inch how does that come into play where people use pencils to mark lines and use their eyesight to gauge things?

That's a very good point Peter...however I was responding to the earlier discussion of being able to quantify if the positioning of a hand on the handle of the slider, or the way you approached using the handle of a slider could deflect the blade's position and thus deflect its cutting path.
In an interest to further the current Redux campaign...I decided to provide some quantifiable information. It didn't really matter to me what the results would turn out to be, rather it mattered to me only to put this "I think this "..."You think that" discussion to bed and refocus on what was important...the release of a mini Kapex with hopefully a MORE ROBUST MOTOR THAN THE KAPEX.

 

[Svar]

Forgive me for my lack of understanding when it comes to these posted measurements of deflection.  When measurements are taken to hundredths or thousands of an inch how does that come into play where people use pencils to mark lines and use their eyesight to gauge things?

It does not matter if you cut things to length, but it metters for the cut quality. If you are making a picture frame 1/100" side to side wobble of the blade might matter. I bet that wobble is greater if the handle is attached on the side of the saw.

 

[Cheese]

[member=44099]Cheese[/member] - is this affecting your cuts ?

No...not for the type of work I usually perform.
But it is interesting that a neutral hand placed upon a centralized handle that's standard on the Kapex at ground point zero will still yield a +/-.003" variance at the fence...I wonder what that deviation is 12" from the fence...? Are these big numbers???...no they equate roughly to the thickness of a human hair.
However, how about those other sliders that have their handle offset 4"-5" from the centerline of the blade, I wonder what the deflection/variance is for them?

 

[semenza]

[member=44099]Cheese[/member] - is this affecting your cuts ?

No...not for the type of work I usually perform.
But it is interesting that a neutral hand placed upon a centralized handle that's standard on the Kapex at ground point zero will still yield a +/-.003" variance at the fence...I wonder what that deviation is 12" from the fence...? Are these big numbers???...no they equate roughly to the thickness of a human hair.
However, how about those other sliders that have their handle offset 4"-5" from the centerline of the blade, I wonder what the deflection/variance is for them?

Exactly. I would be interested to know this as well. Or even a horizontal handle that is centered.

Seth

 

[Kev]

Festool improved their smaller planer recently and one aspect that's causing me to consider an upgrade is the improvement where a the trigger retain button isn't fouled with a left handed grip.

I use my KAPEX with the hand that's convenient to use depending on what side of the blade I want to be and I feel that an ambidextrous approach is a benefit when using an SCMS. Lefties do tend more towards being ambidextrous though I suppose, whereas a rightie can be less capable of working with their left hand.

On appearance the KS60 does appear to have good ergonomics .. something I've always appreciated about Festool is their focus on good ergonomics [smile]

 

[Svar]

I use my KAPEX with the hand that's convenient to use depending on what side of the blade I want to be and I feel that an ambidextrous approach is a benefit when using an SCMS.

I agree. SCMS is one of those tools where it is often easier to switch hands rather than flip around a long piece. Symmetrical handle is a benefit here, a benefit that not only 10% lefties will appreciate.

 

[semenza]

I use my KAPEX with the hand that's convenient to use depending on what side of the blade I want to be and I feel that an ambidextrous approach is a benefit when using an SCMS.

I agree. SCMS is one of those tools where it is often easier to switch hands rather than flip around a long piece. Symmetrical handle is a benefit here, a benefit that not only 10% lefties will appreciate.

    I have found the vertical handle very useful for my own left (non-dominant hand) use a surprising number of times. Especially when I am set up in a spot that only allows for long pieces to one side of the saw. I find it to give better control than using my left hand on a horizontal handle and certainly helps avoid the very unsafe practice of crossing arms over on a sliding head saw.

Seth

 

[Laminator]

At first I found the handle awkward  but grew accustomed to it quickly.  Using the saw for cutting crown flat, both left and right hand cuts, I think it works very well.  I think the shape of the handle could be easily improved to make it easier to grip.   

 

[semenza]

    Anybody out there have multiple saw styles, the necessary measuring equipment, and a well calibrated hand? Though it would take an extensive study for any real meaningful data, I think it would still be interesting to have some idea on the deflection.  [member=44099]Cheese[/member]  , [member=191]Rick Christopherson[/member] maybe?

Seth

 

[ear3]

I'm definitely a fan of the vertical handle for enabling ambidexterity.  It comes in handy more than I would have thought before I switched over to the Kapex --  basically any time where I'm cutting with the keeper piece to the right of the blade.

 

[demographic]

I've thought long and hard about this and am at least 50% convinced the answer is chicken soup.

 

[antss]

NO NO NO

NO,

whisky , my boy, whisky  [wink]

 

[Cheese]

Anybody out there have multiple saw styles, the necessary measuring equipment, and a well calibrated hand? Though it would take an extensive study for any real meaningful data, I think it would still be interesting to have some idea on the deflection.  [member=44099]Cheese[/member]  , [member=191]Rick Christopherson[/member] maybe?

Unfortunately Seth, I only own the Kapex and an older Milwaukee chop saw that I keep around for backup just in case the Kapex..........well you know why. [crying]  The previous Milwaukee slider I owned was sold the day the Kapex made the voyage to the basement.
[member=1619]SRSemenza[/member]