Kapex worth the money?

[Tfb]

Hi I'm new here and should introduce myself properly but I'm in bait of a hurry, I currently own the latest makita offering the ls1216 but its giving me trouble so it's going back for a refund.

I want to know if the kapex is worth the money? I can pick one up first thing in the morning for £965 which I think is a pretty good price compared with the retail but its still a pretty hefty price, also will I miss a 12" saw?
I really like the festool, kit so far I have the ts55r and the carvex jigsaw but is this csms really worth the money

Cheers tom

 

[festoolviking]

Hi and  [welcome] to the FOG.

I don't have a Kapex but planning to get one as soon as the money is there. It seems like a good price depending on that it's a KS120 with the laser and bevel. I was considering the KS88 (which is available in Europe) for a while but have now set my eyes on the 120. I'm shure you'll get more advice from here during the weekend.

Festoolviking

 

[MAK]

I think you will enjoy it.  I hesitated before spending that much. Had kapex for nearly 5 years still going good. Mainly do kitchen fitting, used it for stud work etc but not big roof timbers.
You could always return it if you don't like it.(within 15 days now i think)

 

[ccarrolladams]

Hi I'm new here and should introduce myself properly but I'm in bait of a hurry, I currently own the latest makita offering the ls1216 but its giving me trouble so it's going back for a refund.

I want to know if the kapex is worth the money? I can pick one up first thing in the morning for £965 which I think is a pretty good price compared with the retail but its still a pretty hefty price, also will I miss a 12" saw?
I really like the festool, kit so far I have the ts55r and the carvex jigsaw but is this csms really worth the money

Cheers tom

[welcome] to The FOG, Tom,

Only you can decide if a Kapex will improve your work enough that to you it is worth the money.

Since all of us on my side of the pond are meeting you for the first time, at least I have no clue the sort of work you will be doing.

Festool did design the Kapex so in some ways it has the capacity of a 12" miter saw and it does get the most from its 10" blade. But the primary design of the Kapex is for finish carpentry, not framing and such tasks requiring a lot of power. So, if you only do a little finish carpentry tasks, it might take you longer to justify the price of the Kapex.

Besides the cost of the machine, to gain the benefits, you really need to learn to work with the Kapex and not try to turn a Kapex into a more traditional miter saw. A major benefit of the Kapex is dust collection, which is important when working in a shop, but vital for installs and finish work inside clients homes and businesses. Generally framing miter saws are used outside or in spaces which will be cleaned later.

I notice in your list of Festool kit you do not mention a Festool CT dust extractor. Not only is the CT going to remove the dust, it is important to keep the Kapex cool.

My suggestion is to search through the material here on The FOG about the Kapex and then ask us specific questions.

People say I am frugal spending money. I own a large custom cabinet shop employing six other cabinet makers. Besides all the usual big machines, my shop has six Kapex, one reserved to go on site, two in permanent positions and three on roving stands to be positioned where needed. All have dedicated dust extractors. Also all of us have been using Kapex since they came to the USA. We have compromised our work habits to gain the benefits of the Kapex. Without such compromise the Kapex might not be worth the price. It is all up to you.

 

[Tfb]

Sorry I forgot to mention my ctl midi.

My work varies a fair amount, all of my work is for private customers so i don't work on big sites. A lot of what i do is second fix ie skirting architraves and fitted units, I also fit a fair amount of kitchens. I don't do that much first fix but if I do I only really use the saw for stud work which Im sure the kapex would manage.

 

[MAK]

[welcome] sorry forgot to welcome you.
Sounds like you do same sort of work as me.
I'm sure you will find the kapex the right tool.
I chose it because of its capacity for high cornice but realitively light weight. I got the stand and wheels makes it a joy to move in and out of van.

 

[Holzhacker]

If you are field based, lugging tools in and out of job sites; yes worth every pound.
If you are shop based, not so much

 

[sean_hogan]

Agree with holzhacker completely, all depends on what your doing

 

[Julian Tracy]

Never heard that the Kapex's dust port has some sort of cooling effect for the motor - doesn't sound right.  Is that true?

JT

 

[peter halle]

I haven't heard that either, but I know that Carroll has attended a bunch of training classes, events, and has spent considerable time with Festool employees both here and in Europe and he certainly very well could have heard something that hasn't been posted before.

Peter

 

[ccarrolladams]

We have also conducted a whole lot of tests of all our many Festools.

Our analysis of the Kapex, which we shared with Festool years ago, showed that the internal cooling by the saw's motor did a good job keeping it cool for the few seconds at a time the motor is rotating.

However our thermal imaging showed that without enough velocity of dust extraction, the blade and outer bearing did not cool enough when cutting many pieces in a hurry.

We conducted those tests because as soon as we moved into our 2010 huge shop with sophisticated dust collection, we wanted to use it to extract the Kapex dust on the two of them we keep permanently mounted in fixed locations. What we found was that when we reduced 100mm DC hose to the 36mm AS Festool hose which woks best with a Kapex we did not match the velocity of using a CT22. With the lower velocity of extraction the blade and bearing did not cool as well as when using the CT22 and similar Festool products.

None of us were concerned by the cost of the CT22 bags, because you make a fortune using the Kapex per bag. But I felt that with a machine in a fixed position it should work using the plant DC system. So, we kept the thermal imaging equipment close to hand while we designed what we call an 'accelerator' which is an electric turbine attached to the DC duct in place of a normal 100mm hose with remotely controlled damper. Basically these provide slightly more velocity than a CT36 at maximum with a 3.5mx36mm AS hose. We need that because the accelerators are above the Kapex. The discharge of the accelerators is into the DC duct and the accelerator when not active serves as a remote damper.

We kept tweaking design of the accelerator using a spare Kapex until the blade and bearing heated no more than when a CT22 was used as the dust extractor. Because of slightly greater suction the CT36 works even better.

Subsequently we have built prototypes of variations on the accelerators for use on other Festools. The Domino 500 was easy because it works well with far more suction than minimum. Designing accelerators which can be remotely attenuated, like a CT, has proven far more problematic. Right now we do not consider this practical, especially since sanding creates so little dust. We continue to dedicate one CT22 to each sanding position so the cabinet maker can reached the control and adjust the suction. Sometimes what seem to be a great idea do not prove practical as a product.

Currently we are in discussion with manufacturers interested in making and selling our accelerators. We have loaned a few prototype of those for the Kapex to friends with those installed in fixed locations convenient to a plant DC duct.

 

[Julian Tracy]

You guys have too much time on your hands...  I can't imagine that the kapex would require any further "cooling" than what is designed into the motor housings via fan/heat sink, etc.

Sure, perhaps you've reduced the heat near the bearings a bit with some fancy heat reduction doohickey, bu really now, was it potentially damaging heat you fixed or are you just trying to force a few numbers one way or another?

JT

 

[mastercabman]

You guys have too much time on your hands...  I can't imagine that the kapex would require any further "cooling" than what is designed into the motor housings via fan/heat sink, etc.

Sure, perhaps you've reduced the heat near the bearings a bit with some fancy heat reduction doohickey, bu really now, was it potentially damaging heat you fixed or are you just trying to force a few numbers one way or another?

JT

I also have to say  that someone has wayyyyyy too much time in their hands to conduct tests like that.

Thermal imaging?        Really?!

 

[skids]

You guys have too much time on your hands...  I can't imagine that the kapex would require any further "cooling" than what is designed into the motor housings via fan/heat sink, etc.

Sure, perhaps you've reduced the heat near the bearings a bit with some fancy heat reduction doohickey, bu really now, was it potentially damaging heat you fixed or are you just trying to force a few numbers one way or another?

JT

Exactly! And talk about vearing off topic on a thread! Man, my head is spinning, I might even be dumber from having read all that. I thought Festool did all the R&D?  [wink]

OP- The Kapex is worth what it is worth to you. You have to at least consider the law of diminishing returns when you spend this much dough. But I can tell you I went through exactly what you described, bought a run-of-mill miter saw, had issues, then got the Kapex. Once I did one job (on my own home, since I am DIYr) with the Kapex, there was NO WAY I was giving it back.

Unfortuately there is no single answer here for you. But I can tell you, once you use one you realize it moves you ahead in your capabilities a few notches. The angle finder and the bevel were just amazing features for me. It's a great saw, but I don't know that it qualifies as a "game-changer" type tool like some of the other Festool tools I now own. It's a miter saw, and darn fine miter saw, thats super portable, small footprint, with awesome dust collection, mind blowing bevel adjustments, and lasers that truly work. And a Bonus angle finder!!

Best of luck to you if you decide to pull the trigger!

 

[Kev]

Back on value for money ... even as a DIYer the time savings on deployment, use and cleanup are very noticeable - as it the ease of use and accuracy. I put a high value on my personal time, so it's a fairly easy justification for me it that respect.

The combination of KS120 with UG cart and extensions suited my needs. £4 of benefit a day will pay your £965 back in a working year - I'll bet you'll gain that!

... Just don't blame me if it goes the other ware and you spend all that free time buying coffee  [wink]

 

[ccarrolladams]

The heritage of The FOG is that topics go in various directions. If an administrator or moderator decides otherwise, we all are told that fact.

With respect, I run several financially successful businesses. When experience in one business suggests a need for a new product or process, I have talented professionals within those businesses able to do R&D. Will our 'accelerator' become a commercially viable product? Until me made prototypes there was no way of finding out.

I do not like to consider this a situation of having excess time on my hands. I find that my experiences produce many ideas of products. Working around their existing case load R&D professionals from my businesses perfect my ideas and also perfect their own ideas.

Until you have performed these thermal imaging tests and had them evaluated by experts in this field, how can you say if my findings are in excess of need? Have you ever read any document endorsed by Festool that a Kapex can be run for any length of time without adequate dust extraction?

 

[Kev]

The heritage of The FOG is that topics go in various directions. If an administrator or moderator decides otherwise, we all are told that fact.

With respect, I run several financially successful businesses. When experience in one business suggests a need for a new product or process, I have talented professionals within those businesses able to do R&D. Will our 'accelerator' become a commercially viable product? Until me made prototypes there was no way of finding out.

I do not like to consider this a situation of having excess time on my hands. I find that my experiences produce many ideas of products. Working around their existing case load R&D professionals from my businesses perfect my ideas and also perfect their own ideas.

Until you have performed these thermal imaging tests and had them evaluated by experts in this field, how can you say if my findings are in excess of need? Have you ever read any document endorsed by Festool that a Kapex can be run for any length of time without adequate dust extraction?

Some of the worlds most amazing discoveries have been made through almost directionless research and experimentation. Don't stop! ... though I can hardly imagine you taking instruction to stop from anyone  [big grin]

 

[Michael1960]

I agree with Kev.  Many significant advances from R & D end up from serendipity.  You don't always know what you will find!
If you need to take your Kapex 'on site' its a lot easier to move than many other brands.
My Kapex is usually in the workshop.  Effective dust collection is important to me for health reasons.  How much are your lungs worth?

 

[jonny round boy]

Tom,

Whereabouts in the UK are you? It may well be that there's a Kapex owner near you who would be prepared to let you go and try theirs out.

Sure you could handle one at a dealers, but I think most dealers wouldn't be comfortable with you spending an hour or two cutting up various timbers.

Just a thought.

 

[Stone Message]

Hi Tom

You may have bought your Kapex by now - go for it, I am delighted with mine. I chose the Kapex 120 ahead of all the 12 inch machines as it can, in almost every way, out perform them. I spent 7 weeks doing the research before buying and I am sure that things will not have changed much in the last 18 months. You should get a CTL extractor if you do not have one already.

Welcome to the FOG

Peter