KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.

antss said:
A saw brake isn't necessary.
Neither is a powered mitersaw.
Nor is a Festool necessary.

But they are all nice things to have if you make a lot of miter cuts.  And a brake would seem to me to be one of things a high end mitersaw should have. 

I agree to all of the above.

Considering I have the option of getting the KS60 "for free" or order a Metabo KGS 72 Xact Sym - which I would have to pay for with real money - I am really pitting these against each other. The Metabo is cheaper but weighs half a kilo more. Metabo has one extra feature I like and has slightly better cutting specs except that the Kapex mitres 60/60 and the Metabo 50/50. If Metabo has a blade brake it would sway me further towards it but it isn't the most crucial feature. If I was going for a Metabo KGS 72 Xact (without the SYM feature) it is lighter than the Kapex, slightly better specs and considerably cheaper. 

All of them have front gliders and are similar in size. After fondling the Kapex I am not sure it is better built than Metabo. I don't remember much from the KGS Xact SYM; I briefly looked at it while I was picking up my 18V Metabo SCMS. It looked solid enough and working the knobs and levers felt good though I didn't cut anything with it. My gut feel is that the Metabo offers a little more for less money. It has an LED light too but I don't think it gives the shadow line that the Kapex gives. That is the single most positive difference for the KS60 in use I would say. 

I am slightly hijacking the thread in my own personal quest but I think the posting holds some merit as I am comparing the Kapex with a current, similar size/spec mitre saw that might offer same, or even more, for less.
 
The lack of a brake could be a deal breaker for me. Sure the SYS1 issue got me thinking, particularly from an engineering/design and marketing perspective.

But no brake! At work in the TY the cutting saw we use to cut timber for customers is also brakeless. It us both frustrating to me and for customers, particularly at busy times,  to have to wait for the blade to spool down between cuts.

Now when installing flooring, this might not be an issue, but I am considering this saw for furniture and final fix work, where the lack if a brake could be a real pain - pun intended.

Of course Festool may believe a brake is not necessary due to the inherent inertia of a smaller blade and the saws gearing.
 
My trusty old Makita LS0714L has no blade brake - and yes, it does bother me at times. I was cutting 140-something lengths of glass wall trim and it was tedious having to wait for the blade brake between plunges.

When cutting studs and flooring it does not bother me but I would rather have a blade brake than not have it if given the choice.
 
Svar said:
Kapex 120 aligns with SYS1, right? Does anyone use sys1 for stock support or ever saw others doing it? Illustrates practicality of this issue.

Yep, seen it half a dozen times at least. 

I've also seen and used a sys1 for the same thing on other Miter Saws.  They don't align exactly out of the box, but are easily modified.

I don't think it's a groundswell of users that use this, but it should have been included in the design - if the "system approach" is more than just BS. 
 
Untidy Shop said:
But no brake! At work in the TY the cutting saw we use to cut timber for customers is also brakeless. It us both frustrating to me and for customers, particularly at busy times,  to have to wait for the blade to spool down between cuts.

Duh, now I get it. I was thinking safety.  Waiting for spin down would  irritate me for how I'd use it.
 
Scorpion said:
Untidy Shop said:
But no brake! At work in the TY the cutting saw we use to cut timber for customers is also brakeless. It us both frustrating to me and for customers, particularly at busy times,  to have to wait for the blade to spool down between cuts.


Duh, now I get it. I was thinking safety.  Waiting for spin down would  me off for how I'd use it.

[size=13pt]
Today AEST, I asked a question on the Australian Festool Facebook visitor posts regarding the lack of brake for the KS60. I received the following reply via Messanger.

Hi Xxxxxxx, Thank you for your comment on our facebook page. Festool Germany has choose to only include the blade brake on the KS 120. I have spoken to our product trainer and he has informed me that he sees no concern as the blade on the KS 60 slows down at a rate that we believe to be safe. Kind Regards, Xxxxx.

And just now on UTube I found this clip. Note the blade speed reduction at the 30 second mark. I would be happy with this amount of blade speed reduction.


As I stated on
Untidy Shop said:
[size=10pt]The lack of a brake co . . . . . . . .
[size=12pt]
Of course Festool may believe a brake is not necessary due to the inherent inertia of a smaller blade and the saws gearing.
 
Untidy Shop said:
[size=13pt]
Today AEST, I asked a question on the Australian Festool Facebook visitor posts regarding the lack of brake for the KS60. I received the following reply via Messanger.

And just now on UTube I found this clip. Note the blade speed reduction at the 30 second mark. I would be happy with this amount of blade speed reduction.


As long as they're happy.  Lol.  I honestly can't tell anything from that video except they chose dramatic powerful music.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Also noticed that the new KS60 uses different UG-extension wings to the KS120

[sad] [sad]

Have to double up on wings too.
 
Looks like the blade stops in 2 to 3 seconds. That is pretty fast. I don't get all the complaining about this, and as soon as you lift the blade the guard covers it immediately.

Really, I don't get any of the complaining in this thread.
 
antss said:
Alex said:
The story of course is they wanted to make a small and light package. Why on earth should they absolutely -have to- make the base the same height as a systainer

But it would have been nicer had they included the feet with the saw. It's just 2 dollars worth of plastic. But there you have Festool's rip off marketing methods.

Uh........because it's a system
because they claim to only release a tool with improvements
because they claim to have better engineering
because they're other saw is made that way

Nicer  [doh]

Why use an add on to solve an issue that could have been eliminated during design and manufacturing ?
Weight , my foot. A second year industrial design student could easily give you a few ways to increase the height without adding weight. 
This seems like a case of the product manager deciding that the band aid for the product's shortcomings should be paid for by the customer.

Now, the customer pays in the end anyway - but it never ceases to amaze me how Festool nickel and dimes users in haphazard and inconsistent way. 

I've raised this point before - don't they beta test this stuff in the field before release?  And if so who's testing it ?  It would appear that the faithful are not consulted.

And honestly is anyone going to buy one of these in the 110v version given its big brother's motor issues.

Part of the problem with medium size enterprises is the relative scarcity of R&D resources.  The "big boys", much larger highly capitalised conglomerates like Bobby Bosch or the Asian triumvirate of TTI, Makita & Hitachi, have billions available.  Yet, despite the very best intentions & expenditure they still make some spectacular mistakes.

Ever the innovator, the early development & release of new technologies hasn't always served Makita well.  Some tools have been abysmal failures:  the combi drill/hammer/rattler, the first generation of lithium cells & chargers, their initial run of three speed drills, their first cordless grinders were typically sub-par.  Yet their innovative strategies have lead to triumphs too:  their rattlers, the first rechargeable drills and lithium powered tools.  In Makita's case, the sheer depth and breadth of ranging has allowed their triumphs to far outweigh their mistakes.

In comparison, much smaller enterprises such as the Tooltechnic group can ill afford to make, or even worse, acknowledge, mistakes.  To do so would be in diametric & philosophical opposition to the corporate ethos of innate superiority.  Aberrant product releases must instead be quietly allowed to disappear, lest the current company's reputation, carefully manicured by marketing, market positioning & pricing policies suffer negative setbacks.

Unfortunately, the need to maintain an "Über alles" market position requires a risk-averse innovation-light development strategy.  Smaller enterprises can be much more readily "undone" financially from gross mistakes, especially those positioning themselves as "haute couture" in their particular marketplace.  Not to mention the fickle nature of the fashionistas and other potential clientele in the rarified upper end of consumerist fantasies.  It's simply "safer" to learn from the mistakes & successes of others.

This continued aversion to risk, coupled with limited developmental resources, can however become a deadly combination in this rarified atmosphere:  it can be truly " tough at the top".  Damned if you do (innovate), damned (or even worse be regarded as boring) if you don't.

The bigger Keiretsu, cashed up conglomerates, Public enterprises & horizontally & vertically integrated enterprises have an opportunistic & envious eye permanently focussed on any perceived competitor's market share.  With vastly superior resources, economies of scale and production capabilities that dwarf the likes of Festo/Narex, it is of little surprise that we see the batons of innovation, reliability & even quality being passed on to newer hands.  Only in that most fickle of parameters - exclusivity - does Festo have any legitimate claim to leadership these days.

One may no longer feel quite so assured of continued customer loyalty, especially if one is perceived as deficient in corporate loyalty.  The reciprocity of this arrangement is an essential aspect of long-term corporate associations and social contracts, whether it be between an enterprise & its customer base, a government & the governed, or in a master/servant relationship of employment.  Reward must be mutual, respect prevalent & equity paramount.  History is littered with the messy results of the inequities, abuses & disrespect between contractual partnerships.  Any organisation that ignores these non-codified but intrinsic social & moral parameters does so at its peril.  If I lived on another continent the net price of a particular sander would be about ONE TENTH of the price that I'm actually obliged to pay....

Yes, they can certainly trade for some time on the strength of their past reputation, but in a contemporary competitive marketplace, where innovations tend to be more closely guarded and the spirit of corporate pooling of resources that was always a feature of post war German enterprise long gone, it is only a matter of time before any "banked" balance of goodwill is squandered by any real or perceived unresponsiveness to legitimate customer concerns about product performance, safety or reliability.  There will always be somebody to candidly declare that the Emperor is indeed naked, and ever a hungry competitor ready & willing to acquire new customers.

Festo, I fear your days are numbered.  You've become boring.

 
[size=13pt][member=9481]aloysius[/member]
Yep that is a great analysis. I still see extra quality in the manufacturing and the tolerances within most of the Festool range. But it's been a long time since Festool came up with a game changing concept such as the Domino.

I can see the quality in this saw, but is there innovation?
[size=8pt]
Alex said:
Looks . . . .
Really, I don't get any of the complaining in this thread.
[size=13pt]
[member=5277]Alex[/member]
I think this thread was not one of complaining, but rather some analysis of how Festool designers failed to follow through on the 'system'. Having 'forgot' the system, they created an add on.

But hey, sure it now seems the blade and gearing stop the blade at sufficient speed to make a brake redundant.

If nothing else this thread had provided some analysis for some like myself who are considering the purchase of this saw. For me, it's still one of two options - Festool or Metabo?
 
[member=19746]Untidy Shop[/member] I agree that this thread has provided some good clarification.

Already having a KS120 +UG and liking it, but also really enjoying the flexibility of my small cordless Metabo SCMS I was interested in the KS60. Had the KS60 mated with the UG gear I already have I would have found it hard to resist. As things stand I'm resisting it quite well [smile]
 
Ill be waiting for a cordless one to come out.

The fact that once the ks60 is on the ug cart its the same wait as the ks120.
Why bother.

Bryan
 
Part of the problem with medium size enterprises is the relative scarcity of R&D resources.  The "big boys", much larger highly capitalised conglomerates like Bobby Bosch or the Asian triumvirate of TTI, Makita & Hitachi, have billions available.  Yet, despite the very best intentions & expenditure they still make some spectacular mistakes.

Ever the innovator, the early development & release of new technologies hasn't always served Makita well.  Some tools have been abysmal failures:  the combi drill/hammer/rattler, the first generation of lithium cells & chargers, their initial run of three speed drills, their first cordless grinders were typically sub-par.  Yet their innovative strategies have lead to triumphs too:  their rattlers, the first rechargeable drills and lithium powered tools.  In Makita's case, the sheer depth and breadth of ranging has allowed their triumphs to far outweigh their mistakes.

In comparison, much smaller enterprises such as the Tooltechnic group can ill afford to make, or even worse, acknowledge, mistakes.  To do so would be in diametric & philosophical opposition to the corporate ethos of innate superiority.  Aberrant product releases must instead be quietly allowed to disappear, lest the current company's reputation, carefully manicured by marketing, market positioning & pricing policies suffer negative setbacks.

Unfortunately, the need to maintain an "Über alles" market position requires a risk-averse innovation-light development strategy.  Smaller enterprises can be much more readily "undone" financially from gross mistakes, especially those positioning themselves as "haute couture" in their particular marketplace.  Not to mention the fickle nature of the fashionistas and other potential clientele in the rarified upper end of consumerist fantasies.  It's simply "safer" to learn from the mistakes & successes of others.

This continued aversion to risk, coupled with limited developmental resources, can however become a deadly combination in this rarified atmosphere:  it can be truly " tough at the top".  Damned if you do (innovate), damned (or even worse be regarded as boring) if you don't.

The bigger Keiretsu, cashed up conglomerates, Public enterprises & horizontally & vertically integrated enterprises have an opportunistic & envious eye permanently focussed on any perceived competitor's market share.  With vastly superior resources, economies of scale and production capabilities that dwarf the likes of Festo/Narex, it is of little surprise that we see the batons of innovation, reliability & even quality being passed on to newer hands.  Only in that most fickle of parameters - exclusivity - does Festo have any legitimate claim to leadership these days.

One may no longer feel quite so assured of continued customer loyalty, especially if one is perceived as deficient in corporate loyalty.  The reciprocity of this arrangement is an essential aspect of long-term corporate associations and social contracts, whether it be between an enterprise & its customer base, a government & the governed, or in a master/servant relationship of employment.  Reward must be mutual, respect prevalent & equity paramount.  History is littered with the messy results of the inequities, abuses & disrespect between contractual partnerships.  Any organisation that ignores these non-codified but intrinsic social & moral parameters does so at its peril.  If I lived on another continent the net price of a particular sander would be about ONE TENTH of the price that I'm actually obliged to pay....

Yes, they can certainly trade for some time on the strength of their past reputation, but in a contemporary competitive marketplace, where innovations tend to be more closely guarded and the spirit of corporate pooling of resources that was always a feature of post war German enterprise long gone, it is only a matter of time before any "banked" balance of goodwill is squandered by any real or perceived unresponsiveness to legitimate customer concerns about product performance, safety or reliability.  There will always be somebody to candidly declare that the Emperor is indeed naked, and ever a hungry competitor ready & willing to acquire new customers.

Festo, I fear your days are numbered.  You've become boring.
[/quote]

Great analysis I think its spot on.
Festool became sort of a kitch. Top in marketing but lacking in innovation/engineering. Too many gimmicks and nasty marketing tricks. I perceive it as a very dishonest company.
 
We are talking about woodworking tools arden't we? Are you guys carpenters or hedge fund manegers ?
 
Has Festool become to boring or have the other manufacturers like Dewalt, with thier Flexivolt just become more innovative and more interesting. Festools biggest problem in Australia is quite simply down to price.
 
glass1 said:
We are talking about woodworking tools arden't we? Are you guys carpenters or hedge fund manegers ?

Problem is when the tool prices would make even a hedge fund manager weep, there's no room for compromises, flaws or bodged solutions to bad design.
 
Hi
To give the discussion a reminder of the product (s).......[attachimg=1]
I disagree Festool is boring - it produces machines for the pro market and designed for the markets in which Festool operate. The range needed a smaller SCMS with a 216mm blade and here it is.......it fits the system with the UG cart, it is lightweight, wide angle range, great extraction, folds up small for transport, angle finder has been improved, simple LED light for the kerf, blade stops in a couple of seconds, ergonomics are very good, left or right handed use, can be used with the new leg extensions or the version for the 120, takes up very little space as the head runs on these.....and it has the feet for the same height as a Sys 1 which reduces the casting weight and keeps the saw a bit lighter.
rg
Phil
 

Attachments

  • zoom_hs_ks60_561683_p_01a.jpg
    zoom_hs_ks60_561683_p_01a.jpg
    14.3 KB · Views: 1,134
Back
Top