KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.

My thinking on the extension wings or legs, is not only will the scales be an issue for someone with both saws, it is also a warehousing issue for Festool in having to stock both type extensions. A better solution would have been to either make the new saw work with the old extension wings, or to make the new extensions for the new saw with adjustable scales so that they would work with either saw and then phase out the old extensions. Having two products where the only difference is the scales seems to me to be a costly mistake.
 
Unlike chop saw (one degree of freedom), vertical handle on SCMS (two degrees of freedom) makes perfect sense.
 
aloysius said:
Prevaricate around the issue all you wish:  a horizontal grip will remain stronger, safer @ more secure than the alternative.   
Yes, if your goal is to pull/push as hard as possible. But the goal is to produce controlled motion. Think of your track saw as an upside down SCMS (tilt and slide). Would you use track saw with horizontal handle only?
 
Cheese said:
...

There will always be some amount of movement & flexing. So I decided to find out how much. With the indicator at the fence it amounted to .005-.009". Moving the indicator 3 1/2" from the fence it became .007-.016". Even just resting my hand on the handle it moved +/- .003".

Finally something factual - well done.
 
Cheese said:
There will always be some amount of movement & flexing. So I decided to find out how much. With the indicator at the fence it amounted to .005-.009". Moving the indicator 3 1/2" from the fence it became .007-.016". Even just resting my hand on the handle it moved +/- .003".
[scared] OMG! Festool puts substandard tubes and bearings on its saws!!!  [jawdrop]

Excellent job, Cheese. Now attach side mounted horizontal handle and repeat the experiment...  [big grin]
 
Forgive me for my lack of understanding when it comes to these posted measurements of deflection.  When measurements are taken to hundredths or thousands of an inch how does that come into play where people use pencils to mark lines and use their eyesight to gauge things?

Last time I checked the normal measuring instruments - tapes and rules - didn't have those precision marks on them.

Am I just a dinosaur in this industry?  Are my clients who are happen with my precision just plain idiots?

Just wondering.

Peter
 
Svar said:
aloysius said:
Prevaricate around the issue all you wish:  a horizontal grip will remain stronger, safer @ more secure than the alternative.   
Yes, if your goal is to pull/push as hard as possible. But the goal is to produce controlled motion. Think of your track saw as an upside down SCMS (tilt and slide). Would you use track saw with horizontal handle only?

Good point there.  When I use my Radial Arm Saw, the blade continually wants to " climb" into the work & potentially jam.  It needs to be held back (with return spring/cable assistance) and the feed rate carefully controlled in big cuts.

Radial arm saws feature both handle orientations, but my preference is for the horizontal variety.  In regard to track saws & other circular pendulum & plunge saws I think a horizontal handle would be too weird for words....  I still struggle with left-bladed circular saws.  To me it just doesn't seem right.
 
aloysius said:
Svar said:
aloysius said:
Prevaricate around the issue all you wish:  a horizontal grip will remain stronger, safer @ more secure than the alternative.   
Yes, if your goal is to pull/push as hard as possible. But the goal is to produce controlled motion. Think of your track saw as an upside down SCMS (tilt and slide). Would you use track saw with horizontal handle only?

Good point there.  When I use my Radial Arm Saw, the blade continually wants to " climb" into the work & potentially jam.  It needs to be held back (with return spring/cable assistance) and the feed rate carefully controlled in big cuts.

Radial arm saws feature both handle orientations, but my preference is for the horizontal variety.  In regard to track saws & other circular pendulum & plunge saws I think a horizontal handle would be too weird for words....  I still struggle with left-bladed circular saws.  To me it just doesn't seem right.

But left bladed circular saws offer right handed (the dominant if I read other posts here correctly) a clear sight line.  I switched back in 2002. 

Peter
 
Yes I've heard this reason before.  I believe that those wormgear driven saws so beloved of the New World are thus endowed.  Haven't ever used on, nor likely to.  Cordless saws are predominantly left bladed too, except for a long discontinued German made Metabo and a pair of cordless DeWalts that offer the choice:  I'm obviously not alone in my discomfiture.

Whether handsawing with a Sandvik or Spear & Jackson, crosscutting with a handheld electric or battery circular or cutting convoluted lines with a jigsaw, the workpiece is supported by a bench or horse, steadied with the left hand &/or knee, the tool held in the right whilst supported by the uncut portion of the workpiece:  the offcut or shortest length then falls away to the right.

How does a left bladed tool assist in this arrangement?  How does the blade orientation affect one's view?  I'm not having a go, but I simply don't understand.  If the offcut falls away, then the cutline is to the left;  if the required piece is to the right one adjusts the cutline to compensate for the kerf.  Done it this way all my life, using an "x" for the offcut and face & edge arris telltales for relevant identification.  Egyptian cabinetmaking & stonework has implemented this system for at least the past 5 thousand odd years, building some of mankind's oldest and grandest works of art.  What makes it innapropriate now?
 
Is this thread sending the wrong message?  If I were Festool and I were pondering the release of the next new thing, would I just charge more and include the bracket and everyone would be happy?

Point being, what some think is "stupid to not include" Festool may have decided "if they don't care about the adapter and making the saw the same height as the SYS1, maybe we should offer it separately, reduce the price of the saw, and save them a few bucks?!"

Seems like some just jump to corporate greed as the intent.  It won't make anyone feel better but I probably woulda made the 120 have an adapter too so when I release V2 I could use SYS1 height as a feature improvement .  LOL
 
aloysius said:
Yes I've heard this reason before.  I believe that those wormgear driven saws so beloved of the New World are thus endowed.  Haven't ever used on, nor likely to.  Cordless saws are predominantly left bladed too, except for a long discontinued German made Metabo and a pair of cordless DeWalts that offer the choice:  I'm obviously not alone in my discomfiture.

Whether handsawing with a Sandvik or Spear & Jackson, crosscutting with a handheld electric or battery circular or cutting convoluted lines with a jigsaw, the workpiece is supported by a bench or horse, steadied with the left hand &/or knee, the tool held in the right whilst supported by the uncut portion of the workpiece:  the offcut or shortest length then falls away to the right.

How does a left bladed tool assist in this arrangement?  How does the blade orientation affect one's view?  I'm not having a go, but I simply don't understand.  If the offcut falls away, then the cutline is to the left;  if the required piece is to the right one adjusts the cutline to compensate for the kerf.  Done it this way all my life, using an "x" for the offcut and face & edge arris telltales for relevant identification.  Egyptian cabinetmaking & stonework has implemented this system for at least the past 5 thousand odd years, building some of mankind's oldest and grandest works of art.  What makes it innapropriate now?

It's the visibility  of the blade and the line. Left blade saw with right handed person means you can look directly at the blade and line without having to look over / across the saw body to the other side.

Seth
 
Scorpion said:
"if they don't care about the adapter and making the saw the same height as the SYS1, maybe we should offer it separately, reduce the price of the saw, and save them a few bucks?!"

Seems like some just jump to corporate greed as the intent.

Can you offer a logical explanation as to why these small plastic parts would cost AUS$60 / €35 / $35 while we see products with this amount of plastic in the stores for $1-$2 and you know both the manufacturer and the seller still make a profit?

[attachimg=1]
 

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Alex said:
Scorpion said:
"if they don't care about the adapter and making the saw the same height as the SYS1, maybe we should offer it separately, reduce the price of the saw, and save them a few bucks?!"

Seems like some just jump to corporate greed as the intent.

Can you offer a logical explanation as to why these small plastic parts would cost AUS$60 / €35 / $35 while we see products with this amount of plastic in the stores for $1-$2 and you know both the manufacturer and the seller still make a profit?

[attachimg=1]

Exactly my thoughts.

I think this is one of the worst examples of Festool dining out on their name and utterly ripping off its customers for an overpriced accessory. Utterly immoral.
 
Here I must take exception.  I personally don't find it immoral.  To me, it's merely "the Festo way".

Buy for a buck (or rather Reichsmark) & sell for ten, or a hundred if it's talked up enough.  There's no deception here.  The designers aren't idiots.  The last saw was designed in a particular way, by more or less the same posse I'd imagine.  To make it non-compatible is a rational, conscious decision in order to extract that essential add-on sale;  this is where the extreme profit lies.

We all know the company.  We all know it's ways.  It's a bit disingenuous to be whinging about price when these very customers have been offered some tools for giveaway prices whereas other, already established & loyal customers get charged in excess of 1000% price premium.

That North American customers wil have to pay a few pennies more for their tools (being from a special class & production run of low-volume production numbers to reflect their 3rd world voltage characteristics) is a given.  It's still a mere fraction charged for their main high volume production runs sent to long-term customers, who get justifiably punished for their loyalty.

Festo makes no secret of this.  No apologies.  No excuses either.  None are necessary.  If customers are stupid enough to accept these inequities, then it becomes both vindication and validation for these ranging & marketing decisions.  Heck, even my own (Australian) government is actively colluding in this state of affairs, with an unprecedented, exclusive & incestuous "Get out of Gaol Free" arrangement that allows behaviour that for any other corporte entity would (& has) resulted in criminal proceedings

To oblige one's customer base to pay extra, at inordinately profitable markups, for deliberately omitted features  & abilities shows in fact extraordinary gumption & corporate smarts.  The shareholder base must be delighted.  That the saw's KS 120/88 predecessors are similarly so "poorly" designed is further evidence of  Festo's corporate genius.  To create such a well featured but extremely poorly manufactured product that will require replacement at a carefully engineered age only just exceeding the warranty period shows true engineering brilliance and marketing genius that would have made the originator of the concept of planned obsolescence extremely proud.

Save a buck.  Use lightweight copper windings that are all but guaranteed to fail.  Employ the absolute cheapest quotes from the east Asian subcontractors for the componentry.  Utilise outmoded bought-in technologies like obsolete battery platforms at heavily discounted runout prices from the Asian manufacturers at a fraction of the price that the early adopters paid some 5 years previously.  Don't develop anything new.  It costs too much, and might fail.  Better to copy the successful designs of more innovative and risk-taking companies, and by lagging some 5-10 years behind (or 25 years for patented innovations) one may also avoid their mistakes.  And then pretend all is well.

It's sheer marketing genius.  Whilst you may not like it, you've got to admire their chutzpah.
 
And yet they let you go on like this on their forum.  [blink]

Your posts are unacceptable. Maybe you need to take a break from this.
 
Aloysius, is an older simpler design no longer good just because it's older? Mt c12 Nicad still works great, so well I am not rushing out to replace it with the cxs. My main router is the Dewalt dw621 which is a pretty old elu design. Some of my older hitachi nailers just cannot be beat. I still wish makita still made their old simple table saw (just add a quick release Irving knife) to drop into my Rousseau stand, I could careless about it coming with a good fence. Yes I like some new stuff, especially some new flexvolt. I just do not understand this level of hate. I think pushing festool to be better is good but really this thread is bordering on the bizarre. Some of the best tools are BORING. I would prefer boring over stupid crap like one key. I would prefer that the people making my tools could afford to hire me (no matter where they live, yes even Mexico and China). Back to the scms  discussion, in my mind all the major brands have serious flaws, you pick your poison and get to work. Makita= blade runout, soft zero bevel stop, silly bevel stops, no bevel past 45, Bosch= boat anchor, no soft start, no lasers, no light, table flatness issues, blade not parallel to arm, clunky bevel adjustment with complicated recalibration, bevel lock not solid. Dewalt= sticky slides, no soft start, tiny bushing on slides, not the best for long bevel cuts. Hitachi= (10"). Talk about a dinosaur, no 60 miter, no bevel past 45, blade guard breaks easy, fences move easy, limited capacity. Ridgid= 12" old one HEAVY, arbor issues, tracking problems, deflection. New 12" about to be recalled crazy blad shutter. 10" = bevel locking isssus, inaccurate laser, motor takes a year to get up to speed, heavy, not durable. Dewalt 10" manufacture isssues= blade not parallel to tubes, center of table lower than sides, fences not in line, bevel lock in non detentes not solid. Milwaukee 12" heavy, dust collector limits capacity, micro adjust is crap, digital bevel not acccurate, arbor leaks grease, no laser or shadow line. Milwaukee m18. Deflection in rear position, weak miter lock, less than 12" crosscut, blade not parallel to slides.
Note none have good dust collection except the Milwaukee 12".
Now are these companies evil because of these shortcomings ?
Are you evil because of your shortcomings ?
We are talking about little plastic feet and vertical handles verses horizontal ?
Deflection= are we carpenters? Woodworkers?  Cantilever can be strong but there will always be some deflection. Too abstract for you, all scms are a cantiler design, do not like go to a yard sale and pick up an old sawbuck.
 
[member=4687]glass1[/member]
You make some valid points here about high quality but ageless designs. And the faults of others.

However if Festool market themselves as 'faster, better, best' then they have an obligation to their customers to fulfill that aim. Some here have found some shortcomings with this saw. Does that make this saw lesser in quality and design compared to SOME of its opposition. Probably not. But for the price we do expect it to be 'faster, better, best'. This is Festools slogan not mine.

Am I going to still seriously consider purchasing this saw? Yes. Meantime I look forward to some demo videos from Phil B and others.

[member=182]Corwin[/member]
Yes perhaps [member=9481]aloysius[/member] is going in too hard and beyond the purposes of this thread in his statements. But re-read the fifth paragraph in his last post and you will see reflected an underlying resentment towards the behaviour of Festool's Australian Inporter that, sadly, is reflected through/underling the comments of many active Aussie members of this Forum across many Threads. Shame really because many of us also certainly appreciate a number of the tools in the Festool range.

________________
[size=10pt]This thread has probably run its course. Sure add more if you want,, particularly if you have actually used one. Personally  I have said as much about this saw as I wish; well at least untill I maybe purchase one!

I have certainly learn't from many of the replys. Thankyou for reading or participating. Thanks again also to [member=41214]Phil Beckley[/member] for representing Festool here and providing his thoughts and perspectives. Thanks also to the Mods.

 
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