KS60 - We pay more to cover a design error.

[six-point socket II]

Hi!

I was at one of my Festool dealers on Friday to pick up the 2017 catalog and maybe play a bit with the new KS60. Sadly they finally gave in to a steady and very noticeable shift in their customer base from carpenters, cabinet makers and framers to drywallers, masons, painters so they won't be stocking the Kapex line anymore. So I left with just the catalog.

My hope is my other Festool dealer and I also hope he will be hosting a small event again where I and others can try the KS60 - looking very forward to it.

From what I see in pictures I like the KS60!

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[Phil Beckley]

Hi
The KS60 will be at the forthcoming exhibitions and shows through the Spring and Summer in the UK. If you have the opportunity and time come along and try it out for yourself - also watch out for the reviews that are starting to come through as well.
  I will be demonstrating the KS60 at the next event we attend all the way through starting with the set version  [big grin] (including the feet) and ending up with the XL version  [scared].....
Look forward to seeing some of you at the shows so introduce yourself...
rg
Phil

 

[antss]

.....the less base casting then less weight there is, maybe the feet are used to save on the overall KG's....so not to bad a solution after all. Keeps the height correct for the 'System' and saves some weight. In terms of accuracy then yes there is a need for this machine.....it cuts accurately with no deflection due to the twin column guides and this also keeps it compact so again another plus for the KS60.

Phil,
this just sound like sales drivel.

I have a twin rail saw that's a lot lighter than a ks60 and it cost all of 80 quid !  And I think you mean say the KS60 has acceptable deflection don't you ?  There's a thread round here recently when I think [member=44099]Cheese[/member] showed that one can deflect any mitersaw a measurable amount- which isn't none.  At the end of the day pretty much all mitersaws can and will cut a piece of wood accurately enough for carpentry jobs that we do. 

We're not building Formula1 engines that require infinitesimal amounts of precision.

 

[Phil Beckley]

.....the less base casting then less weight there is, maybe the feet are used to save on the overall KG's....so not to bad a solution after all. Keeps the height correct for the 'System' and saves some weight. In terms of accuracy then yes there is a need for this machine.....it cuts accurately with no deflection due to the twin column guides and this also keeps it compact so again another plus for the KS60.

Phil,
this just sound like sales drivel.

I have a twin rail saw that's a lot lighter than a ks60 and it cost all of 80 quid !  And I think you mean say the KS60 has acceptable deflection don't you ?  There's a thread round here recently when I think [member=44099]Cheese[/member] showed that one can deflect any mitersaw a measurable amount- which isn't none.  At the end of the day pretty much all mitersaws can and will cut a piece of wood accurately enough for carpentry jobs that we do. 

We're not building Formula1 engines that require infinitesimal amounts of precision.

...sales drivel maybe but then again I do work for Festool so will defend the product...and it is based on experience of using it over a decent amount of time....I am from the trade as well so I do not treat Festool machines as objects of desire, they are there to be worked hard the KS60 included.....along with the rest of the range.
  Ok, as for specifics - acceptable amount of deflection yes. But it also comes down to the build quality - any SCMS if pushed down on the head hard enough or side to side will deflect - including the £80 one you have. With the KS120 and the 60 this is negated as much as possible due the build standard and the twin column guides - the deflection will be absolutely minimal if used correctly and not forced.
rg
Phil

 

[antss]

I'm glad we agree to call a spade a spade.

The 80quid machine will certainly deflect, maybe/probably more so than the ks60.  But my point is they will both cut a plinth to 90 degrees, or miter a picture frame at 45 deg. even with the deflection.  But you can have 7 or 8 of them for one ks60. So we have to do better than it will cut wood precisely or is lighter than a ks120 or has a light or laser.  Ditto for all on the 80quid .

I think you and the bosses are just going to have to accept some criticism on this one not being up to the usual Festool standard.  Only through rose colored glasses can one think it is.  That doesn't make it a bad saw, but as I've said earlier, Festool is held to a higher standard.

On another note, and I apologize if this was already answered, is the ks60 slated for release in 110v in the UK ? And if so, when ?

 

[Phil Beckley]

I'm glad we agree to call a spade a spade.

The 80quid machine will certainly deflect, maybe/probably more so than the ks60.  But my point is they will both cut a plinth to 90 degrees, or miter a picture frame at 45 deg. even with the deflection.  But you can have 7 or 8 of them for one ks60. So we have to do better than it will cut wood precisely or is lighter than a ks120 or has a light or laser.  Ditto for all on the 80quid .

I think you and the bosses are just going to have to accept some criticism on this one not being up to the usual Festool standard.  Only through rose colored glasses can one think it is.  That doesn't make it a bad saw, but as I've said earlier, Festool is held to a higher standard.

On another note, and I apologize if this was already answered, is the ks60 slated for release in 110v in the UK ? And if so, when ?

.....I will keep the KS 60 and by-pass the £80 machine thank you  [wink]. I did with the KS60 as I do with all new machines - find a project and work it to the capacity stated and a bit further if I can....as a trainer I have to. I back the KS60 100%.....including the feet  [wink]. Sure Festool is held to a high standard and should be and the KS60 for 216mm market is ahead of the competition.
  The KS60 is available as a 110v version and is available to UK dealers now
rg
Phil

 

[Stone Message]

I'm glad we agree to call a spade a spade.

The 80quid machine will certainly deflect, maybe/probably more so than the ks60.  But my point is they will both cut a plinth to 90 degrees, or miter a picture frame at 45 deg. even with the deflection.  But you can have 7 or 8 of them for one ks60. So we have to do better than it will cut wood precisely or is lighter than a ks120 or has a light or laser.  Ditto for all on the 80quid .

I think you and the bosses are just going to have to accept some criticism on this one not being up to the usual Festool standard.  Only through rose colored glasses can one think it is.  That doesn't make it a bad saw, but as I've said earlier, Festool is held to a higher standard.

On another note, and I apologize if this was already answered, is the ks60 slated for release in 110v in the UK ? And if so, when ?

Does this argument about £80 machines also apply to the cars or vans that people drive?

Does anyone remember the Trabants rolling into Germany after the Wall came down? I could get quite a few of them for the price of my car. Is there a similar thing going on between guys with Sprinters and those...less well appointed vehicles?

Now I have thrown that into the pot I am off to bed.

Good night everyone.

Peter

 

[mrboult]

Would love to see a [member=11196]Peter Parfitt[/member] review of this saw! Definitely considering it. When I got to work with the KS120 a few years ago, I loved it, but it has always been out of my price range. But a smaller cheaper saw with equal accuracy, cut quality & dust collection interests me a lot. . .

I've used lots and lots of £100 -£350 saws over the years and while I've always managed to achieve what I need, a more refined experience would be welcomed..

 

[Phil Beckley]

Would love to see a [member=11196]Peter Parfitt[/member] review of this saw! Definitely considering it. When I got to work with the KS120 a few years ago, I loved it, but it has always been out of my price range. But a smaller cheaper saw with equal accuracy, cut quality & dust collection interests me a lot. . .

I've used lots and lots of £100 -£350 saws over the years and while I've always managed to achieve what I need, a more refined experience would be welcomed..

....I will be arranging a machine for Peter to review as soon as possible.
rg
Phil

(it will be on a loan basis and once the review is complete the machine comes back to Festool)

 

[Stone Message]

Would love to see a [member=11196]Peter Parfitt[/member] review of this saw! Definitely considering it. When I got to work with the KS120 a few years ago, I loved it, but it has always been out of my price range. But a smaller cheaper saw with equal accuracy, cut quality & dust collection interests me a lot. . .

I've used lots and lots of £100 -£350 saws over the years and while I've always managed to achieve what I need, a more refined experience would be welcomed..

....I will be arranging a machine for Peter to review as soon as possible.
rg
Phil

(it will be on a loan basis and once the review is complete the machine comes back to Festool)

Gosh, that is great news Phil - many thanks.

Peter

 

[glass1]

Please pardon my french.....  I have always been one to hold festool to the fire, but some of the critics of the ks 60 are retarded. Its a lightweight saw, dual bevel, 12" crosscut, shadow line saw. I would much rather have 60 degree miters in both directions than that fence moving thing on the metabo. Lets see if its a good tool once people have used it.

 

[Stone Message]

Would love to see a [member=11196]Peter Parfitt[/member] review of this saw! Definitely considering it. When I got to work with the KS120 a few years ago, I loved it, but it has always been out of my price range. But a smaller cheaper saw with equal accuracy, cut quality & dust collection interests me a lot. . .

I've used lots and lots of £100 -£350 saws over the years and while I've always managed to achieve what I need, a more refined experience would be welcomed..

That is the last time I leave the iPhone next to the bed...

I have had several cheap and cheerful saws in my time as well as some very cheap and not so clever cars. For me the KS120 is a "Rolls Royce" of a saw. It would be nice to think that the KS60 was the "BMW" but then aren't they one and the same thing?

Peter

 

[Stone Message]

Please pardon my french.....  I have always been one to hold festool to the fire, but some of the critics of the ks 60 are retarded. Its a lightweight saw, dual bevel, 12" crosscut, shadow line saw. I would much rather have 60 degree miters in both directions than that fence moving thing on the metabo. Lets see if its a good tool once people have used it.

I think that people should get to a store and see a demo as soon as they come to their area. I always advise people to go and look at and, if they can, try equipment. Nobody can cover everything in a review and sometimes users have their own very clear and firm set ideas about certain aspects which might not apply to or be spotted by a reviewer.

Peter

 

[Stephen B]

At the risk of waking [member=11196]Peter Parfitt[/member] from his beauty sleep! Oh I just did! [eek]

Last week I visited my dealer to purchase some dust bags. There it was, the KS60 on display. Yes the build quality was obviously excellent. The movement smooth and action smooth. Could not switch it on though and I had limited time.

Will this probably be my next Festool purchase - likely, but there is also an ageing CT22 to replace soon.

Do I still think my original criticisms of the table height were justified? Well after reading this post for nearly a month now, with some others raising other critical elements, some of which I agree, others definitely not - Yes I do!

 

[antss]

I'm glad we agree to call a spade a spade.

The 80quid machine will certainly deflect, maybe/probably more so than the ks60.  But my point is they will both cut a plinth to 90 degrees, or miter a picture frame at 45 deg. even with the deflection.  But you can have 7 or 8 of them for one ks60. So we have to do better than it will cut wood precisely or is lighter than a ks120 or has a light or laser.  Ditto for all on the 80quid .

I think you and the bosses are just going to have to accept some criticism on this one not being up to the usual Festool standard.  Only through rose colored glasses can one think it is.  That doesn't make it a bad saw, but as I've said earlier, Festool is held to a higher standard.

On another note, and I apologize if this was already answered, is the ks60 slated for release in 110v in the UK ? And if so, when ?

Does this argument about £80 machines also apply to the cars or vans that people drive?

Does anyone remember the Trabants rolling into Germany after the Wall came down? I could get quite a few of them for the price of my car. Is there a similar thing going on between guys with Sprinters and those...less well appointed vehicles?

Now I have thrown that into the pot I am off to bed.

Good night everyone.

Peter

Of course. 

Both will get you where you want to go, but no one will mistake it for a Benz.  But when that Benz doesn't quite live up to the Benz moniker.....................................and the ads and salesmen keep on that they do. It'd be like saying it's (benz)  fast and light and has great boot space and is high quality and the Traubi actually having more boot space, and going as fast and being as light.  That's the corundum I've posed. 

And to be fair, the 80q saw I'm talking about will way outlast a Traubi and is much closer in fit & finish and quality to the Kapex than a Traubi was to any Western produced car.  It might just outlast a ks60 in 110v if FT hasn't made changes to those motors.  I'm sure none of us want a thread titled "KS60 motor failures" .  Which brings me back to the quality vs. price issue.  It's one thing to say something is better made, but when the failure rate data doesn't seem to back that up - people get antsy.

You guys want to wax on about how how light ks60 is; and accurate; and has a light , and fits the system - and seem to take offense when ACTUAL festool customers tell you kinda missed the system boat, competitors' saws are lighter and have more capacity - to which you respond "well there's the FT quality" which might very well be dubious given big brother kapex's woes.  That's the stuff people get frustrated with - the lack of acknowledgement that there even MIGHT BE something the designers overlooked or didn't match on the competition, or that quality could be an issue.

 

[tjbnwi]

The pain of cost is gone long before the bitterness of poor quality.

Cost and value are two different things.
http://www.librarypoint.org/yugo_vuic

Tom

 

[antss]

That cost pain may not have subsided if you have a burned out Kapex

 

[peter halle]

Wow.  Such heated conversations when so few have even touched the tool.

Peter

 

[Cheese]

Ya well, so far it's all he said...she said...but it's all about putting your paws on the saw before weighing in.

This is an important "come to Jesus time..." Some of these items seem clunky until you use them, some of these items seem like the next hurrah until you use them. You have to touch it and use it before your opinion can carry any weight. Anything short of that is just blowing smoke up someone's pooper.

 

[Timtool]

[member=727]antss[/member]
So basically you would be happy if the KS60 would cost as much as the cheapest competitor, be as big as the KS120 for compatibility issues, but also be smaller and lighter than the smallest and lightest competitor while maintaining the same accuracy and solidity as the KS120, all while being made by people in the west who are paid fair wages, instead of far eastern modern slaves?

At some point you will have to agree that combination isn't possible, and that a solid and accurate saw made in Germany is going to weigh and cost more than the cheapest lightest made in China one out there.
Yes there is a lack of serious innovation, but my KS120 is now 10 years old and honestly nobody has come up with a better package, neither did Festool themselves with the KS60. Maybe that just tells how good the 120 really still is.