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Whenever I have the space for a real wood shop, that is not in my basement, I will either be buying a SawStop or European sliding table saw. I don't know how long that will be, it could still be a few years and by then hopefully there will be more options with blade stopping technology. There may even be that type of technology on the other equipment that I want (bandsaw, jointer, planer and so on). When the time comes that I have the space for these machines I will probably ask for advise. I want the best and safest machines that I can afford, but I also know that being safe is ultametly my responsibility. I can sort of see both sides to this debate, but to each his/her own.

Daniel
 
I just wanted to interject that this is a hot topic for many. Let's try to keep things cordial despite any difference of opinions. Thanks.
 
NYC Tiny Shop said:
[off topic]

Leer,
Sorry to hear of your accident.  Would you care to describe how it happened and how you could have prevented it?  ...for all of us table saw users? Thanks.

Sure, I am happy to tell the story.  Hopefully this might make a few people stop and think the next time they use their table saw.

I've been doing woodworking for about 45 years.  I always prided myself on being very careful.  That day it happened I even thought I should not work in the shop.  My wife was out of town, and I just had this funny feeling.  I was cutting strips of exotics for glue-ups to make some cutting boards/platters.  I did not have an outfeed table, rather, I was using a roller stand.  One piece of wood got hung up, and I reached over the blade with my left hand to fix it.  The strip of wood touched the blade, kicked back, and dragged my hand back and thru the blade.  

I was lucky.  It cut off about a 1/2" of my thumb, just shy of hitting the bone.  It happened so fast, I did not feel much pain, and did not even cry our or shed a tear.  As I recall, it felt like I'd been stung, that is the best way I can describe it.  I ran to my shop sink and ran the would under cold water, then ran upstairs to grab a towel out of the drawer. I wrapped the thumb, and went down to the basement to look for the tip of my thumb.  It took a couple minutes, but those minutes seemed like hours.  I ran back upstairs and put it in a ziploc bag with ice.  But what next?  I thought about driving myself to the hospital, buit decided that was probably not a good idea.  I called a neighbor that would typically not be home on a Sunday just after noon, but she answered the phone.  I said something reassuring and calming like "Julie -- I'm OK, but could you take me to the emergency room.  I cut off the end of my thumb?.  She had her car backed out of the garage in about 15 seconds!

The ER team cleaned up the cut, and put me on an IV just to be safe, I guess, in case they thought I'd go into shock.  It was really kind of surreal.  I pulled out my iPhone and took a picture.  Then the hand surgeon came in,and he asked if he could take a picture.  I could post the picture but it looked pretty grisly.  The cut ran diagonally from just above the fingernail on the left side, upwards at an angle that cut the opposite side of the fingernail about midway.  The right side of my thumb sort of came to a point.  The doctor said he could try to fold that flap over, but he said I would lose my sense of feeling if he sewed it over with a flap of skin.  I told him to just cut it off and shape it as needed for healing up pretty evenly.  So I had no surgery, per se, they just cleaned the would, and bandaged it, and sent me home.  That simple procedure cost $4000.  Fortunately, it was covered 100% by insurance.

Most people do not notice it.  I was extremely lucky.  I could have easily lost a few fingers, and if I had my wrist go thru the blade, possibly lose my hand. It was completely healed in about 6 weeks, as I recall.  It was a little tender for a few months, but I went to physical therapy a couple times where they showed me exercises to do, and steps to take to toughen up the wound, so I could pick things up and get my feeling back.  After the wound healed, fingerprints grew onto and over the would.  That kind of creeped out my wife!

As I mentioned, I do not think of it most days, or when I go to my shop and use the table saw.  But going into the shop to maybe do other tasks, like using the lathe, I just don't think about it much.

I will buy a SawStop.  I do not want to start an argument with anyone about what the company has done, or has not done.  Once you have an injury like this, it changes you forever.  PERIOD.  

I do treat "Sting" with a healthy dose of respect and caution (I nicknamed the saw Sting because that is what it did to me).  I bought a set of two GRR-Rippers, which are fantastic push blocks.  It is really a whole system.  I also use them on my jointer.  But until I own a SawStop, I will not feel as safe as I want. And that is not something you can appreciate until you've had an accident on a table saw or any saw, for that matter.

I still have moments when I think about the accident.  I actually cringe, but it is not so much what I did to my thumb, rather, what I could have done that might have prevented me from doing woodworking any more, as well as a lot of other physical activities I enjoy. These reactions may fade over time, but I am not sure I want it to.  I am much more safety conscious than before, and I always thought I was pretty safety-oriented.

It can happen to anyone, and it happens in the blink of an eye.

 
Runhard said:
Whenever I have the space for a real wood shop, that is not in my basement, I will either be buying a SawStop or European sliding table saw. I don't know how long that will be, it could still be a few years and by then hopefully there will be more options with blade stopping technology. There may even be that type of technology on the other equipment that I want (bandsaw, jointer, planer and so on). When the time comes that I have the space for these machines I will probably ask for advise. I want the best and safest machines that I can afford, but I also know that being safe is ultametly my responsibility. I can sort of see both sides to this debate, but to each his/her own.

Daniel

I don't know if it is okay to show this picture or not (viewer beware!) but this is why I want a sawstop when I'm ready to purchase a TS. If there are other options and technologies available when I make my purchase, I will consider those as well. The below picture is of my brothers left hand, thankfully he is right handed, after his TS accident:

 

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Runhard, that's truly gruesome. The poor guy.

Was this another example of what happens when you put your hand near the moving blade? How did it happen?

Kev
 
Tom Bellemare said:
leakyroof said:
I think the longer lasting question is how long till another type of technology or assembly that can be built into a woodworking machine is introduced. Saw Stop is one way to do it, there will be others, And more than just installed on Table Saws.

I think it already exists.

Tom
. Looks like he's either stalled or maybe in further development since he has no later update than mid 2012 from what I saw. Had an earlier post somewhere on the web a few years back.
Still interested in his product though.  [cool]
 
Leer,
 Thanks.  Your story is helpful.  I will be more careful and be sure to rethink the use of my rollers as an out-feed for my table saw.
 
"NYC",

Glad to share my story.  I truly hope it maybe is shocking enough to make someone think more about safety, without being too gruesome.

Re: "outfeed rollers":  One thing I did when I bought my track saw was to make myself a "super-sized" MFT.  I covered it here a few months ago, I made it from a full sheet of MDF, but milled it down to 36" x 84" so it fit better in my small shop.  I built it to double as an outfeed table for my table saw.  Because my floor is not perfectly level, I always had issues with roller stand if my saw just happened to be in a slightly different spot.  I never went to the trouble to fine tune the roller stand height.
 
Kev said:
Runhard, that's truly gruesome. The poor guy.

Was this another example of what happens when you put your hand near the moving blade? How did it happen?

Kev

I would have to ask him again to get the exact details, it was probably 10 years ago. I think that he said he was pushing the wood through and had his left hand on the wood and somehow the blade pulled the wood through real fast and he could not pull his hand back fast enough. I know it took him a long time to recover. I feel bad for him because he was also servilely burned on his chest when he was 13 and spent at least 6 months in the hospital!
 
leer said:
"NYC",

Glad to share my story.  I truly hope it maybe is shocking enough to make someone think more about safety, without being too gruesome.

Re: "outfeed rollers":  One thing I did when I bought my track saw was to make myself a "super-sized" MFT.  I covered it here a few months ago, I made it from a full sheet of MDF, but milled it down to 36" x 84" so it fit better in my small shop.  I built it to double as an outfeed table for my table saw.  Because my floor is not perfectly level, I always had issues with roller stand if my saw just happened to be in a slightly different spot.  I never went to the trouble to fine tune the roller stand height.
I've read a lot of threads about rollers as out feeds for Table Saws  , many had really bad results
 
duburban said:
I have access to a woodshop that has a sawstop. It has tripped by non human flesh 4 times. It happens on dense exotic woods. Blades are destroyed each time…

Just out of interest's sake, has that Shop queried the SawStop company when that has happened? I do know that SawStop has frequently provided free replacements of their brake to people that have experienced false positives.

Last question, if this has been happening more than once with this dense exotic wood, why have they not turned off the safety feature when using this wood? SawStop is in the market to sell their products and I've heard that they've been very good with their customer service. It sounds a little questionable to me to be honest.
 
Upscale said:
duburban said:
I have access to a woodshop that has a sawstop. It has tripped by non human flesh 4 times. It happens on dense exotic woods. Blades are destroyed each time…

Just out of interest's sake, has that Shop queried the SawStop company when that has happened? I do know that SawStop has frequently provided free replacements of their brake to people that have experienced false positives.

Last question, if this has been happening more than once with this dense exotic wood, why have they not turned off the safety feature when using this wood? SawStop is in the market to sell their products and I've heard that they've been very good with their customer service. It sounds a little questionable to me to be honest.

I'm going to kick of with an ignorant assumption first, based on only partial knowledge ... I'm assuming having the brake retract the blade isn't a zero cost event. After the first false positive replacement cost I fear there'll be a tendency for people to to turn of the safety feature off.

I hope the saw makes a loud beeping sound or something when the safety is disengaged - ooops, that feature is mine ... it'll cost you Gass ... I think $50M is about right for 10 seconds of thought.

Anyway, it's not much of a safety feature if you can turn it off when dealing with difficult material. The behaviour of a safety feature needs to be consistent. Imagine becoming complacent because you have a safety feature - then forget you've turned it off ... that's like forgetting to pack the parachute!

 
Kev said:
I'm going to kick of with an ignorant assumption first, based on only partial knowledge ... I'm assuming having the brake retract the blade isn't a zero cost event. After the first false positive replacement cost I fear there'll be a tendency for people to to turn of the safety feature off.

When the blade retracts, the brake also clamps down and stops the blade spinning almost immediately. The blade is damaged beyond repair. That retraction and the blade stopped spinning together *are* the safety feature.

You're assuming that everybody is going to experience false postives. From what I've read and been told by several SawStop users, the majority of people don't experience them.

Anyway, it's not much of a safety feature if you can turn it off when dealing with difficult material. The behaviour of a safety feature needs to be consistent. Imagine becoming complacent because you have a safety feature - then forget you've turned it off ... that's like forgetting to pack the parachute!

A small electrical current is supplied to the blade and that current is continuously monitored. If the saw detects a change in the current such as when a hand comes in contact with the blade, the safety feature is activated. There's a number of instances where some materials being cut can affect the monitored voltage, so it's necessary to turn the safety feature off.
 
Tom Bellemare said:
leakyroof said:
I think the longer lasting question is how long till another type of technology or assembly that can be built into a woodworking machine is introduced. Saw Stop is one way to do it, there will be others, And more than just installed on Table Saws.

I think it already exists.

Tom

Site says it stops the blade in an 1/8 of second.  I think SS stops in .005 seconds.    Not sure what the blade rpm on various saws really is, but for the sake of discussion lets assume 3450 which is 57.5 rotations per second.  With an 80 tooth blade that means that 460 teeth will zip past your finger in one second.

If the blade stops in 1/8 second, you would have approx 57 teeth that would contact your finger if it traveled into the blade's path.  If the blade stops in 5 ms you would have only 2.3 teeth that would contact your finger, assuming the blade does not move.  With the SS, as the brake fires, the blade stops in 5ms and the blade is dropped below the table surface at the same time the brake is stopping the blade, so I'm guessing in reality its likely only one tooth has a shot to cut your finger.

The brake in the link isn't even in the same league as the SS technology, but definitely better than nothing when things go wrong.

Fred

 
Kev said:
I'm going to kick of with an ignorant assumption first, based on only partial knowledge ... I'm assuming having the brake retract the blade isn't a zero cost event. After the first false positive replacement cost I fear there'll be a tendency for people to to turn of the safety feature off.

I hope the saw makes a loud beeping sound or something when the safety is disengaged - ooops, that feature is mine ... it'll cost you Gass ... I think $50M is about right for 10 seconds of thought.

Anyway, it's not much of a safety feature if you can turn it off when dealing with difficult material. The behaviour of a safety feature needs to be consistent. Imagine becoming complacent because you have a safety feature - then forget you've turned it off ... that's like forgetting to pack the parachute!

It is not possible to (as far as I know) to disable the brake on a SS permanently.  The saw will not turn on w/o a functioning brake cartridge installed and if you want the brake disable (e.g. to cut aluminum or wet wood) you have to disable it each time you start the motor (which is a different action from turning on the saw) so your beeping idea is superfluous.  In addition, the brake is just one of several safety related features of the saw.

Might be worth actually taking a careful look at the product before bashing it.  In all honesty your posts on this topic (unlike your posts on other topics) so remind me of the Festool bashing you see on some of the other woodworking sites.  You really should try to separate you obvious dislike of the inventor from the merits of the product and technology.

Fred
 
bruegf said:
Kev said:
I'm going to kick of with an ignorant assumption first, based on only partial knowledge ... I'm assuming having the brake retract the blade isn't a zero cost event. After the first false positive replacement cost I fear there'll be a tendency for people to to turn of the safety feature off.

I hope the saw makes a loud beeping sound or something when the safety is disengaged - ooops, that feature is mine ... it'll cost you Gass ... I think $50M is about right for 10 seconds of thought.

Anyway, it's not much of a safety feature if you can turn it off when dealing with difficult material. The behaviour of a safety feature needs to be consistent. Imagine becoming complacent because you have a safety feature - then forget you've turned it off ... that's like forgetting to pack the parachute!

It is not possible to (as far as I know) to disable the brake on a SS permanently.   The saw will not turn on w/o a functioning brake cartridge installed and if you want the brake disable (e.g. to cut aluminum or wet wood) you have to disable it each time you start the motor (which is a different action from turning on the saw) so your beeping idea is superfluous.   In addition, the brake is just one of several safety related features of the saw.

Might be worth actually taking a careful look at the product before bashing it.   In all honesty your posts on this topic (unlike your posts on other topics) so remind me of the Festool bashing you see on some of the other woodworking sites.   You really should try to separate you obvious dislike of the inventor from the merits of the product and technology.

Fred

Thanks Fred, I've gone from a smile to a full grin [big grin]

I'm glad there's other safety features ... I still hate it, will never touch it ... think the technology is foolish and will cause more accidents through complacency that it'll avoid.

Glad for you that you like it - be happy with that [wink]

It is interesting that you would preach "taking a careful look", but still have to disclaim you points with "(as far as I know)" ... good research there! [smile]

 
bruegf

I talked about this with Tom  Bellemare at length a couple years ago when he first learned about Whirlwind Tools .  We thought the 1/8 second stop time is likely okay because that is triggered long before a body part touches the blade. Assuming one isn't feeding the material through the blade at an unreasonably fast rate, it seems as if the blade will be stopped before the body part makes it to the blade.  An eighth of a second seems like a lot compared to milliseconds for SS, but in this case with the rate of feed vs distance from the blade at the time the technology triggers the stopping mechanism , it seems that it will work.

And with the option to install this on a variety of saws and without the need for a manufacturer to re-engineer their equipment , I think this thing will be a success if it comes to market.  I'd buy one immediately.
 
Kev said:
I'm glad there's other safety features ... I still hate it, will never touch it ... think the technology is foolish and will cause more accidents through complacency that it'll avoid.

Glad for you that you like it - be happy with that [wink]

It is interesting that you would preach "taking a careful look", but still have to disclaim you points with "(as far as I know)" ... good research there! [smile]

Kev, I understand your view point.  My view on this topic is different (and yet I don't own a Saw Stop saw).  Here's my problem with your take on this.  Guys like yourself, hobbyist woodworkers, are at some risk of table saw injuries.  Now consider how much the risk goes up for professionals like me, and I'm only a moderate table saw user.  Guys that work in a cabinet shop that can use table saws all day long, everyday are at far greater risk than I am.  Tradesman and cabinet shop workers would benefit from some extra protection, so would you.  

As for the Saw Stop causing more accidents that it prevents out of complacency, sorry I don't buy it.  I agree it may cause some people to have lees fear of the saw and that might lead to some small number of accidents.  Here's the kicker when it comes to complacency, I and a great number of table saw users become complacent without the Saw Stop safety feature.  When this safety feature become practical for portable table saws I will likely jump on board.              
 
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