Lead paint dust

JohnPgh

Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2019
Messages
6
Hey FOG folks. I've just spent the day researching how best to deal with the lead paint all through the interior our 100 yr old house, thus I'm planning on investing in a good shop vac. After looking at capacity and costs, it looks like the Festool CT Mini or Midi are in my budget range of under $600.

In addition to sanding wood features that had lead paint removed there is a fair amount of dust anytime I disturb trim work or effervescence from the painted basement masonry.

My question is do you recommend only using a HEPA filter for this one purpose and having a second one for non-lead use? I can't imagine using this machine for just ordinary vacuuming after silica or lead-dust containment. Thoughts?
 
I don't use my personal Festool vacs for lead or silica (I have a company owned Dewalt one) but if you use a good disposable bag there should be very little dust making it to the filters. That said I think the Festool vacs are far better then the Dewalt one.
 
Stay with the HEPA filters full time.  Once you use your hoses they will become contaminated and lead dust can travel to the vac at any time in the future.

Peter
 
Do yourself a favor and grab one of these ASAP:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Metabo-11-Amp-Auto-Clean-HEPA-Vacuum-For-Concrete/153044688486

This is the best-in-class German-made Metabo-branded Starmix i-Pulse extractor (c.2017) with dual HEPA filters and iPulse agitation filter cleaning (which cleans each filter independently from each other). Also, Starmix just announced that they will be releasing a sys-plate that is designed to attach tooless'ly to the top of the vac to allow systainer/I'Boxx storage/transport. The Metabo-branded version comes with a 3-year warranty and a non-anti-static 35mm hose. These are normally $600 vacuums that this eBay seller is closing out. 
 
I like my Festool midi but I agree with this advice, especially for sanding automatic filter cleaning is a really nice feature and the Starmix vacs (and their rebranded versions) are top of the line.
 
I don't get this, I sand all day with my Minis, doing rough stuff like plaster all the time, and there isn't a spec of dust on my filter, everything is caught by the dust bag. Automatic filter cleaning is totally worthless unless you suck up stuff without using a dust bag. Use it for the applications where it is intended, but for the rest the constant noise and shaking is very irritating.
 
Alex said:
Automatic filter cleaning is totally worthless unless you suck up stuff without using a dust bag. Use it for the applications where it is intended, but for the rest the constant noise and shaking is very irritating.
Absolutely untrue, I'm afraid. I do a certain amount of solid surface work where sanding generates loads of extremely fine dust which can clog filters relatively quickly if you run sans bag so you need a bag to catch the dust before it hits those expensive main filters. Same goes for certain hardwoods, especially stuff like iroko, resinous stuff like pitch pine (where the pitch particles will ruin a filter relatively quickly - and they can't be washed out of polyester filters, either) and even man-made materials which contain glue/resins such as MDF, chipboard and OSB where the resins will form an immovable mess of hardened glue on one side of your filters if you run without a bag for long enough. I've seen all of these things happen to vacuums on job sites. With waste such as lead paint it becomes even more important to capture the waste in a bag so that it can be disposed of properly as well as reducing the contamination of your vacuum with toxic materials. The Starmix iPulse has two filters which means that unlike a lot of other sanders it doesn't lose suction when it's purging the filters system, but it isn't silent (far quieter than a Hilti vac, though).
 
Alex said:
I don't get this, I sand all day with my Minis, doing rough stuff like plaster all the time, and there isn't a spec of dust on my filter, everything is caught by the dust bag. Automatic filter cleaning is totally worthless unless you suck up stuff without using a dust bag. Use it for the applications where it is intended, but for the rest the constant noise and shaking is very irritating.

I need to clarify - I don't have a VAC with autocleaning, but I've been wanting to get one. I use a CTL Midi and when doing a lot of sanding, I notice that the pores of the bag fill up well before it's actually full. Sometimes when it's only a quarter full. It was my understanding that the autoclean mechanism also taps the bag so that it would keep suction better.. I don't feel that my filter gets excessively dirty, I've cleaned it carefully by hand but it didn't actually seem dirty, the bags are very good. I sand wood, paint and varnish, I've never done any drywall so far.

Sorry if I have created any confusion.
 
More description of “Auto clean” would be helpful.

I get the impression the process sends a puff of air through the filter in the reverse direction to blow stuff out of the pleats. And that you still need a bag so...?

Reminds me of buying a WAP Turbo “drywaller” some thirty years ago. The “drywaller” aspect was a curved brush on a plunge rod that allowed you to sweep the dust out of the round filter without removing the filter. Just switch off, plunge, and back to work.

The instructions were not really clear but I assumed the extra $50 charge for the extra apparatus was to allow you to leave out the pricey bag which would clog quickly with drywall dust.

I used it like that once. Suction dropped quickly despite the plunger. Took more than an hour to clean the filter which meant recovering maybe 80% of the air flow.

Despite that disappointment the WAP Turbo was/is a fantastic vac. Easily the quietest vac of the many I’ve used thanks to it’s robust construction of pliable (polyethylene) materials (the opposite of Festool vacs). Also, like the Alto, Fein, and others, the bags have a much higher ratio of surface area to volume so they can collect fine dust much longer than Festool bags.

 
Job and Knock said:
Alex said:
Automatic filter cleaning is totally worthless unless you suck up stuff without using a dust bag. Use it for the applications where it is intended, but for the rest the constant noise and shaking is very irritating.
Absolutely untrue, I'm afraid. I do a certain amount of solid surface work where sanding generates loads of extremely fine dust which can clog filters relatively quickly if you run sans bag so you need a bag to catch the dust before it hits those expensive main filters. Same goes for certain hardwoods, especially stuff like iroko, resinous stuff like pitch pine (where the pitch particles will ruin a filter relatively quickly - and they can't be washed out of polyester filters, either) and even man-made materials which contain glue/resins such as MDF, chipboard and OSB where the resins will form an immovable mess of hardened glue on one side of your filters if you run without a bag for long enough. I've seen all of these things happen to vacuums on job sites. With waste such as lead paint it becomes even more important to capture the waste in a bag so that it can be disposed of properly as well as reducing the contamination of your vacuum with toxic materials. The Starmix iPulse has two filters which means that unlike a lot of other sanders it doesn't lose suction when it's purging the filters system, but it isn't silent (far quieter than a Hilti vac, though).

First: See the red phrases.

Second: Have you seen it happen with Festool vacs? With bag installed?

I use my vacs and sanders on a daily basis, and I sand absolutely anything imaginable, do also a lot of sawing and routing and planing, and my filters are always speckless. Everything gets caught by the dust bag in my Festool vacs. So far I have experience with the CTL22, CTL Mini and CTL 26. I have Festool vacs for 9 years now and not once have I found a dirty filter or had to replace one. And I treat my tools with respect, but I don't spare or baby them at all. 
 
Sanderxpander said:
I need to clarify - I don't have a VAC with autocleaning, but I've been wanting to get one. I use a CTL Midi and when doing a lot of sanding, I notice that the pores of the bag fill up well before it's actually full. Sometimes when it's only a quarter full. It was my understanding that the autoclean mechanism also taps the bag so that it would keep suction better.. I don't feel that my filter gets excessively dirty, I've cleaned it carefully by hand but it didn't actually seem dirty, the bags are very good. I sand wood, paint and varnish, I've never done any drywall so far.

Yes, sanding does create very fine dust that can clog up the pores in the bag very quickly, and just like you I often find my bag only a quarter full when suction becomes ineffective. Depends on the material, plaster & drywall are the worst.

I don't really know if the filter stirring also loosens the dust inside the bag, maybe it has some effect but I doubt it will be that big, the dust bag itself is not stirred and the dust inside is pretty sticky. But who knows.
 
Michael Kellough said:
I get the impression the process sends a puff of air through the filter in the reverse direction to blow stuff out of the pleats. And that you still need a bag so...?
I can't say about the Festools for certain, on account that I have two Starmix-built vacs and I  regularly use the firm's Hilti vacs. All the vacs we use are required to be class M (by law here) and all the stuff we use has auto shakers - not a puff of air, but an electromechanical percussive device (a solenoid which shakes the filter)

 
ColossusX said:
I use the Bosch Vac090ah for silica and lead paint mitigation.
That model is my alternative choice to the Festool line, seemed to get good reviews & on par.
 
Trucks192 said:
I don't use my personal Festool vacs for lead or silica (I have a company owned Dewalt one) but if you use a good disposable bag there should be very little dust making it to the filters. That said I think the Festool vacs are far better then the Dewalt one.
That is reassuring. I have gotten very paranoid about handling this stuff (even though I don't have kids).
 
That Metabo vac is fantastic.  I won one in the spring from Pro Tool Review.  The one that I won is branded Hitachi but is actually the Metabo ASR 35. 
 
On the Metabo vac -
Is the hose same size connections as the Festool?
Is the hose the 27mm small Festool size or the mid size?
I don’t see anyone in the US selling filters or bags - just a quick search.
Not seeing much info on this vac in the US. No dimensional info or accessories. Claim 9 gallon capacity so sounds much larger than a Midi.
 
The inlet on the i-Pulse vac is the euro-standard 57 mm which is the same as the larger Festool vacs. The fitting on the vac is designed to take a locking bayonet-style fitting:

schlauch_35-500_413235.jpg


...but from the photos of the Metabo-version it appears they are supplying it with a friction-fit style - same as Festool).  The bayonet-fitting is nice because it locks the hose to the vac but its absence should not be a deal breaker. 57mm vac-end friction fit style hose fittings (like those supplied with Festool hoses) work just fine.

The hose is 35mm (equivalent to Festool's 36mm) with a 57mm friction fitting on the vac-end and unknown - but likely either this fitting:

schlauch_35-320_413228.jpg


...or this fitting:

anschlussmuffe_drehbar_425726.jpg


...on the tool end and is non-anti static. The first fitting is rigid polypropylene and is designed for clean-up (attachments like wands, brushes, etc, slide on and are held in place via a friction-fit). The second fitting is a tool-end fitting that fits over Festool low-volume (and certain other's) machines like sanders. etc. and inside larger-volume tools (like track saws, routers, etc.). Let's refer to them as one in the same as Festool's 27mm tool-end fitting. If you prefer the large ID 36mm tool-end fitting (which fits with no problem on 35mm hoses but does not fit smaller volume tools like sanders) designed to fit over the dust ports of larger style machines (like track saws, etc.) you had better act fast since that fitting (452894 "Rotating Adapter D36, AS, CT) appears to be discontinued. I found a couple at Beaver Industrial Supply and they may have more. One note is that the CMS hose set and I think the Planex hose (both of which are exposed-rib style hoses) both rely on this fitting (it appears on the 36mm portion of the CMS hose set). I don't know, therefore, how this part could be removed from availability as a spare part given that Festool promises to support tools for ten years. Perhaps [member=101]Festool USA[/member] could chime in at this point?

The other difference, of course, is that Starmix hoses are the now-older-style "exposed-rib" style. Festool's new innovative smooth hoses have not yet been copied/licensed by any of the other shop vac companies (at least that I am aware).

The Bosch-branded 35mm hoses (search elsewhere on this forum for plenty of discussion about these) tend to be compatible with i-Pulse vacs. Again, this comes from the fact that Bosch U.S imported (and rebranded) a couple of models of late model Starmix vacs a few years back and needed to thereafter supply spares in support of their customers. The current generation of Bosch extractors are not Starmix but the associated hoses may or may not be compatible (i have no experience with the current generation of Bosch vacs and the various fittings that are associated with them).

Regarding bags, the Bosch bags sold for the generation of Starmix vacs that preceded the i-Pulse vacs (which, again, Bosch rebranded and sold in the U.S.) are what you're looking for. Those vac model numbers were Bosch 3931 and 3931A. I'll let you google to your hearts content. Third party bags are also available from reputable international sellers. I have personal experience with these and can attest to the fact that they work flawlessly with the i-Pulse vacs. Prices for compatible bags (including the Metabo-braded ones sold for the ASR 35) are now all over the place, again seemingly as a result of suppliers realizing the new market that exists for stuff that was marketed in conjunction with the aforementioned Bosch models but work seamlessly with the rebranded i-Pulse vacs. As a side note, Starmix didn't change anything bag-wise between the older and newer vacs. This works in our favor since there's lots still available in the U.S. (in terms of consumable & accessories) for the older models - though, as I have will now point out, the prices have been rising on that stuff). A couple of years ago they were inexpensive across the board but now, magically, the price has gone up (and not because of inflation!). Check around and you will see what I mean. Also look for Metabo-re-branded bags, etc. Oh, and all of the fittings meant for the aforementoned Bosch model numbers are compatible with the fittings that appear on rebranded i-Pulse vac hose. 

The last thing I'll say about all of this is that it appears that Nilfisk manufactures all of the i-Pulse (and older generation Bosch models) related hoses and hose fitttings, tools, etc. They also were likely the manufacturer of all the Festool hose paraphernalia pre-smooth exterior style. I'm not sure who (if not Festool themselves) is producing the smooth hoses and associated fittings.       
 
Back
Top