Let's talk drills/drivers

[smirak]

I work in an aerospace manufacturing plant. I'm the supply chain manager and get final say on many things. I've spent nearly $1000usd over the last 6 months or so on dewalt, Makita and Milwaukee drills/drivers. I now have told my production guys I'm buying a (or multiple) festool. The amount of work I'd say needed would rival that of a low-moderate hobby shop. We are talking about drilling through composite material about 1" thick(ish). This would be for "one offs" as the main milling/drilling is done with different tools/applications. Also, these would be used for general shop tasks.

Also, I've been keeping up with the installers sets and their (un) availability in the US. We operate on a metric system at the plant (we are a Swiss company) so I don't really need imperial anyway.

So, let me know what your go to drill/driver(s) are for my applications. I'll likely order a few of each (if more than one is recommended).

Thanks,
Kevin

 

[TOOLTOWN]

Sounds like you may like the T-18 and CXS combination.

T-18 for heavier applications and drilling, CXS for lighter duty and screwing applications.

Let me know if you need more info about either.

Ken

 

[Birdhunter]

I would absolutely not buy Festool drills for a company production shop and I own a bunch of the drills. I'm not sure why you would buy a premium drill when much cheaper drills can do he same job. If you are buying for your personal use and pleasure, the cost is worth it.

 

[smirak]

I would absolutely not buy Festool drills for a company production shop and I own a bunch of the drills. I'm not sure why you would buy a premium drill when much cheaper drills can do he same job. If you are buying for your personal use and pleasure, the cost is worth it.

Thanks for the comment bird...this drill would be used in my plant, yes. However, this drill wouldn't be used for any "real" production tasks. We are talking an bout of use a couple days a week, max. The drill would be used by highly skilled manufacturing people. This won't be a drill that just anyone can pick up and use.

 

[antss]

birdhunter - I think that's a rather shortsighted view that will be challenged by a few people.

Under that rational why would any tradesman, manage, or owner on this board want to spring for a festool drill or anything else ??  A ryobi drill drive will certainly get a kitchen install crew's cabinets hung. A grizzly track saw will suffice for the trim carpenter, and a porter cable sander will work wonders for the painter - all at cheaper prices than festool.    Yet many of these trades buy Festool and run them hard.

Your comment comes across as elitist, making it seem only a well heeled hobbyist in Buckhead or on Sea Island can appreciate the FT advantages.  I'm pretty sure that WASN'T your intent.  It might also be noted that FT's drills are ranked middle of the road or worse when tested against other brands for speed, torque, runtime, drilling capacity and price.    Maybe this is what you were hinting at , since efficiency is often on a businessman's mind more than a pretty carry case and membership in the cool club.

I'd think low to moderate hobby shop type volume wouldn't tax any tool very hard, and I'm guessing Aerospace workers are a bit more polished than say my plumbers.  Meaning they'd be less hard on their tools.

smirak - I'm curious why you're shopping for new drills?  Batteries crap out?  Motors wear out ? or ????
Keep in mind the .xs series is only rated for drilling 1/2"  / 12mm hole in wood.  Not the best choice for 1" dia. holes.  I'm sure it would do it, but not ideal.

 

[rljatl]

I agree with Birdhunter and I have a Festool PDC and TXS.

Just took delivery of the new sub compact Makita drill and impact.  The runout is visually less than the Festools.

Tried the Centrotec adapter in the drill and have been really impressed.  Essentially no runout that I can see.

Makita18v Sub Compact Combo
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[smirak]

Thanks antss and rob for the comments. I thought nearly the same as you. Not sure what the intent was for the comment, but I did think it sounded elitist. As for the yearn to switch, the battery life isn't great on what we've bought and the power seems to be lacking some. For what we need, a 1/2" hole would be rather large...think 8mm diameter max of 10mm maybe.

 

[RKA]

If you're looking for torque or speed, consider the PDC.  I'm not sure how the battery life holds up, but you've got 30 days to put it through its paces and see how it holds up.

 

[antss]

Well, Festools battery life has been some of the best I've experienced over the last 25 years.  Only Panasonic is comparable or better.  I've had them all too.

Thought you'd mentioned you needed 1" dia. holes.  1/2" won't be an issue with the .xs drills.

Just about all head to heads I've seen are favoring the Makita or Milwaukee at the top.  Panasonic has pretty much dropped off the map.  I personally don't care for the FT 18v drills, but lots of guys like them.  That size is just too big for most of what we do.

 

[smirak]

Well, Festools battery life has been some of the best I've experienced over the last 25 years.  Only Panasonic is comparable or better.  I've had them all too.

Thought you'd mentioned you needed 1" dia. holes.  1/2" won't be an issue with the .xs drills.

Just about all head to heads I've seen are favoring the Makita or Milwaukee at the top.  Panasonic has pretty much dropped off the map.  I personally don't care for the FT 18v drills, but lots of guys like them.  That size is just too big for most of what we do.

You did see 1". I think there was miscommunication between us. I wouldn't drill that big a hole, but would drill through that thickness?

 

[antss]

Not mis-communicated.  I just didn't read what you wrote thoroughly.  :

 

[Birdhunter]

Drills make holes in things. Most drills do equally well have in making holes. If I owned the business, I'd really question paying premium prices for what a commodity product could do as well as the premium product. I'd want my manager to spend the money where my profit would be best served.

 

[antss]

And how would your ideal manager value employee morale ?  What part do you think that has to play in employee retention / turnover ?  How much do you think that costs a business ?  More or less than a few fancy expensive drills. 

Good workers like nice tools as much as boomer retirees. Maybe you were trying to be elitist.

I'm sure the sales jocks at Festool , Starrett and Woodpeckers are glad not all owners/ managers share your view.  They'd go tits up if the majority of folks who bought their gear were 1%er hobbyists. 

Managers who steer the ship solely on costs are not very savvy.  Anyone with night school bookkeeping course could do that kind of managing.

paying premium prices for what a commodity product could do as well as the premium product

If this were universally accepted, Harbor Freight would rule the tool market.  All of their stuff cuts, drills, clamps, sands, routs, and measures just like every tool you have and at cheaper prices.  And once they ruled the toolworld , someone would come along and undercut them.  The mentality of choosing the lowest price widget or person to complete a job is a fools errand and not sustainable. 

 

[Gregor]

We are talking about drilling through composite material about 1" thick(ish).

in case we're talking about fibre-reinforced polymer composites the Festool drills should not give problems.

Also, I've been keeping up with the installers sets and their (un) availability in the US. We operate on a metric system at the plant (we are a Swiss company) so I don't really need imperial anyway.

Maybe next time someone from your swiss base comes for a visit (s)he/they could bring your some from europe in case they have free weight in their luggage?

So, let me know what your go to drill/driver(s) are for my applications.

Call your local Festool dealer, explain what you're up to and ask to borrow his demos for a day or two to take them to your production guys so they can give them a quick onsite workout on your actual materials?

 

[smirak]

We are talking about drilling through composite material about 1" thick(ish).

in case we're talking about fibre-reinforced polymer composites the Festool drills should not give problems.

Also, I've been keeping up with the installers sets and their (un) availability in the US. We operate on a metric system at the plant (we are a Swiss company) so I don't really need imperial anyway.

Maybe next time someone from your swiss base comes for a visit (s)he/they could bring your some from europe in case they have free weight in their luggage?

So, let me know what your go to drill/driver(s) are for my applications.

Call your local Festool dealer, explain what you're up to and ask to borrow his demos for a day or two to take them to your production guys so they can give them a quick onsite workout on your actual materials?

Gregor...actually, I'm headed to Zurich on Sunday, so maybe I'll look over there.

Also, to all, I have a pretty good handle on things in my plant. I didn't get to where I am in my career because I spend frivously. I have an MBA with a concentration in economics. I think I know what I'm doing. I'm a firm believer in total cost of ownership and don't mind paying a premium price for a premium product. This thread was merely a question about given my situation, what product would you choose. 

 

[rljatl]

That's just it.  Festool drills are premium products in price only.  Not in performance.

 

[Gregor]

Also, to all, I have a pretty good handle on things in my plant. I didn't get to where I am in my career because I spend frivously. I have an MBA with a concentration in economics. I think I know what I'm doing. I'm a firm believer in total cost of ownership and don't mind paying a premium price for a premium product. This thread was merely a question about given my situation, what product would you choose.

I got that. My point was (even when not explicitely stating it, so here it comes) that I think that it's quite irrelevant what we think, or even you, it comes down to what your production guys find works best for their job.

Maybe they prefer C over T grips (or not), prefer a lighter over a heavier machine (or the other way around), or they even (for fun and recreation at work) prefer to shoot the holes with an AK-74? No idea. Thus the suggestion to borrow the demos from your dealer (with this I ment: one of each) and let the ones who'll actually have to work with them, in the place they have to work with them, evaluate what's working best for them, as they're the ones who need to be happy with the tools to not kill their motivation and productivity.

 

[DB10]

We are talking about drilling through composite material about 1" thick(ish).

in case we're talking about fibre-reinforced polymer composites the Festool drills should not give problems.

Also, I've been keeping up with the installers sets and their (un) availability in the US. We operate on a metric system at the plant (we are a Swiss company) so I don't really need imperial anyway.

Maybe next time someone from your swiss base comes for a visit (s)he/they could bring your some from europe in case they have free weight in their luggage?

So, let me know what your go to drill/driver(s) are for my applications.

Call your local Festool dealer, explain what you're up to and ask to borrow his demos for a day or two to take them to your production guys so they can give them a quick onsite workout on your actual materials?

Gregor...actually, I'm headed to Zurich on Sunday, so maybe I'll look over there.

Also, to all, I have a pretty good handle on things in my plant. I didn't get to where I am in my career because I spend frivously. I have an MBA with a concentration in economics. I think I know what I'm doing. I'm a firm believer in total cost of ownership and don't mind paying a premium price for a premium product. This thread was merely a question about given my situation, what product would you choose.

  BTW, Your posts are starting to sound a bit unnecessarily boastful now, I don't have an MBA but I have experience with both Festool drills and the Aerospace industry in Europe.
In my experience aerospace guys aren't usually up against the clock and are already quite organised in their shop environment and also out on air bases so I believe there is little advantage in investing money in the centrotec system which on construction sites can be very useful.
Given your situation I would spend the companies money on Makita Bosch Dewalt or  Milwaukee and only spend my own money on Festool.

 

[smirak]

Thanks db...post wasn't meant to sound boastful, so apologies to anyone if it came across as that. I guess maybe the question is, do I continue to spend money on the other brands, or do I buy festool? Is the quality that much better? If I've gone through a couple different brands so far, and would have paid for a festool, would I have gone through a couple different festools as well? Or, would the quality of a festool have prevented me from buying another?

I echo your comment about being organized. Our plant is bringing production from Switzerland to America. We build space product. We are building our plant around a nice 5S environment. Perhaps some of my question may have had to do (unconsciously) with the fact that these tools come in systainers allowing us to be even more 5S compliant. Sure, I can buy a new Milwaukee and a sustainer with some foam inserts, but after that, I'm at the festool price? Maybe I was just internally justifying a festool?

Point of matter is that I need a few more drills, so that's what started this whole thread.

 

[aloysius]

I would absolutely not buy Festool drills for a company production shop and I own a bunch of the drills. I'm not sure why you would buy a premium drill when much cheaper drills can do he same job. If you are buying for your personal use and pleasure, the cost is worth it.

I concur.  There's so much better value (subjectively) & more germaine to the brief performance available elsewhere.  I've found Festool's cordless drill offerings to be in general to be average & not necessarily outstanding performers.  Specifically, the lack of speed available in the current range makes for frustrating sheet metal drilling.  The (relative) lack of torque available at lower speeds effectively hampers use with large holesaws, augers and at higher speeds spade bits of larger diameters.  Finally, battery storage capacity is below the best available elsewhere.

For similar money, Metabo offers significantly more power (LTX range of tools), capacity (EC [brushless] motors & LiHD 3.1, 3.5, 5.5, 6.2 & 7.0 ah batteries), speed (BS 18 LTX-3 BL Q I), versatility (Impuls drilling/driving mode, accessory quick release chucks, 1/4" driving chuck, angle drive, torque multiplier) and industrial applications (GB 18 LTX BL Q I cordless tapper/drill).  Metabo's top range of cordless tools are still made in their German factories.  Between German & Asian production, there's over 80 tools now in their cordless 18v platform.

Likewise, whilst not quite as sophisticated and versatile, Makita have an extremely broad and highly regarded range of industrial cordless drills.  Milwaukee, not a personal favourite it must be said, rivals and on occasion exceeds Makita's performance parameters too.  Both of these manufacturers are somewhat let down with below-par battery platforms in comparison to Metabo (currently the world's broadest & indisputably in my opinion the best).