Little Proteus Power feeder

[ChuckM]

Thanks for taking the time to make and post the video, which should be helpful to woodworkers who often use sheet goods and wonder if your feeder handles sheets.

You didn't show how the JessEm's stock guides were set for the ply sheet in the video, but my experience using the stock guides with sheet goods does not suggest the kind of loose holding seen in your video. When not properly set, a loose hold is possible. Of course, when we feed a large sheet on the table saw -- with or without the stock guides in use -- the push force should be at an angle towards the far end/corner of the fence, and that action shouldn't pull the sheet away from the fence. Still, the loose holding doesn't seem right to me.

Maybe perhaps my recollection of a tight hold under the stock guides isn't right. I plan to check that out on my SawStop one day after I'm back from a trip scheduled for next month.. If my finding is indeed different, I'll share it here.

 

[cdconey]

As has been covered, the only competitive product is the $400 Comatic baby feeder, which is such a drag to mount some find it worth it paying another $300 for a magnetic base. It won't feed at as low  speeds as one can get with a LP, and won't function well as a band saw feeder. So the price comparison is sort of bogus: the LP will do things no other tool will do, at any price.

As for the drill expense, what half serious woodworker doesn't own a brushless motor drill? If you don't, treat yourself to one. And then decide if you want to really get the most out of that drill by using it to power a power feeder!

I don't think you can actually compare the two models of feeders. Apples and oranges.

One is Kit built or purchased kit assembled, one is manufactured finished product out of metal and has sprung wheels to keep contact and comes with a motor to spin the sprung wheels.

Personally I think the market is limited - there is a kick-starter for another power feeder and has very few signed up, even with all the you-tube influencers hawking it. 

I get plenty of use from my drills, I don't need to drop 4 Benjamin's to feel like I'd get more out of them. 

 

[peter halle]

Interesting read.  Then just this morning I came across this:  https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/smitool/auto-cut-2023-easy-auto-rip-cut-on-your-table-saw?ref=2h8zqv&utm_source=jellop&ja=jcf&utm_term=001.jcf&utm_content=AutoCut-CB03&utm_medium=facebook&utm_id=fb&fbclid=IwAR0VEd7BK6KIfEPVBavCUIHfbnPkjichU_VKlu1wyclJfq5uhxK0sJfFRjw

Note:  I am not endorsing.  I am not involved.  I am not an investor / backer / pledger.

Peter

 

[ChuckM]

The kickstarter feeder has exactly the kind of material look I had in mind when I made my earlier comments about finding a manufacturing partner in Taiwan or China. The auto-cut feeder seems to be well thought out, covering the aspect of dust collection that I pointed out in one of my posts. But I don't know how well that issue is covered by its current design (I might've missed it).

Whether it's this feeder or any others, they tend to benefit only certain woodworkers who do repetitive ripping cuts a lot -- for business or for pleasure. In general, hobbyists don't do that as we don't do the same identical project(s) day in and day out. The number of identical parts to prepare or cut is small for most projects. Yes, when I do multiples, I cut multiples of parts at the same time, but most woodworkers don't do multiples of the same object/ build or often enough to enjoy the full potential of a feeder (the largest number of multiples I've ever done is about 25 to 30).

Ripping is only one of the functions of a table saw. We would often use the table saw where a feeder won't help or would even get in the way, such as cross cutting with the miter gauge or crosscut sled, using a jig (to cut finger joints, for example), and making tenon cheek cuts, to name a few. I even use the table saw to cut circles. So, the feeder has a smaller market, as sexy as it does look! It's like the BCT chopstick maker. I know a woodworker who owns one, and the excitement he shared about the gifts and small parties for which it was used. But no more after a year. How many chopsticks can you really make and give as gifts, even when they're branded as handmade?

I was quite surprised by the prices (the lowest being $900 Cdn after shipping). Their target is to produce 600 units (about 70 people have signed up for the rewards so far), and at that price, they may need to find some established woodworking vendor or retailer to push their sales (which doesn't seem likely to happen).

Very nice product research and development, and I hope the creator will be satisfied with the outcome after the offer is closed. However, maybe because I was reading it on my cell, I found the write-up too long, and I didn't finish the whole pitch. The presentation, including the various videos, could be improved.

That said, if this product were developed and marketed by Woodpeckers, the outlook could be quite different because some WP followers or fans do not necessarily buy their WP tools based on the rate of utilization.

Edit: I also came across a video a while back about a prototype saw fence that is set by pressing a button or two. Very nice if you need that kind of help in setting the fence. The only automation I use in my shop is the auto-switch for my dust collector and the auto feature of the CT15.

 

[alladd]

Thanks for this reference. I hadn't seen my  Canadian "competitor". Very interesting! Aesthetically and from impressive engineering aspects he sure does blow the Little Proteus out of the water! But it's pretty clear he's not a woodworker, or at least not a serious woodworker.  I'm pretty sure my product will outperform his for most work, and for versatility. For instance his mounting system will not allow use on wider plywood panels, as his mount will interfere. And any feeder that puts pressure against the fence will require the fence to be clamped against defection on the rear of the fence, a problem on Biesemeyer (Sawstop) type fences. A fence mounted feeder doesn't have that problem. This may be hard to believe, but it's absolutely true. And his doesn't have the height for band saw resawing. And I doubt he can produce it as cheaply as he wants to, which is still about double my price (I know, but you don't have to use your drill for his.....)

These past couple years, working on the Little Proteus, and a cross-cut sled project, the Uni-sled --https://www.etsy.com/listing/1515581231/uni-sled-table-saw-cross-cut-sled-system
I've realized that even Woodpeckers projects can be driven by an engineer's perspective, rather than the more appropriate woodworker's experience. Their equivalent to my sled (I was working on my sled before they went public with theirs), the Autoscale, they initially tried to market with no sacrificial fence tip, a huge mistake, and one that I guess came from only using absolutely brand new saw blades on easier to cut woods that didn't tear out badly without backing from the fence. They've since tacked on  a half-assed solution, but it was striking they thought they didn't need it initially. It really was a botch on the initial release.
  See the viewer responses for how badly they blew it on the lack of a fence tip.

Anyway, I truly want to thank all of you again, especially Chuck, but even the skeptics. I am going to pursue having a refined version made from materials acceptable to Festool lovers. I'm reaching out to my local University's engineering department for help....

Chuck, the beauty of the LP is that it really is as fast to mount as Jessem Clear Cut guides (if using their track, rather than the dubious magnetic mounting so adored by denizens of Youtube), which have huge acceptance in the market. So even for a cut or two it can be worth mounting. But you're right--it's highest value is for repeat work. That's why I love it.  I'm a box maker  (https://www.alladd.com/index.html) .  I can mount it in a few seconds, cut a stack of 20-100 parts (often small dados), and pull it off in another few seconds and get back to cross cutting.

I hope I can offer a prettier version at about the same price sometime in the next year or so!

 

[ChuckM]

For instance his mounting system will not allow use on wider plywood panels, as his mount will interfere.
Snip.
I hope I can offer a prettier version at about the same price sometime in the next year or so!

I was skimming, so I'm not 100% sure, but I think somewhere it says the auto-cut feeder can be mounted to the right of the fence. Because of the poor organization of the write-up, I didn't really read through the material and I could be wrong here.

Please share your updates when you're able to do so!

 

[smorgasbord]

This is kind of funny, but I had completely forgotten that years ago I retro-fitted my MiniMax FS-350 Jointer/Planer combination unit with an old Sears corded drill, a small aluminum pulley in the check, a automotive V-belt, a drill-press made wooden pulley, and a router variable speed control box to create a variable speed feeder for the thickness planer.

I was just reminded of this because the 1980's Craftsman "Sears Best" drill started crapping out. It's probably brushes, but for some reason this specific model isn't listed on any of the places that sell brushes for old tools. Replacement brushes are only about $15, but for $22 I was able to just buy another version of a similar drill.

It's a 1980's vintage brush-based drill, so it doesn't have near the torque nor speed of today's models, but it does have a 5/16" diameter threaded hole on each side meant for an auxiliary handle, which I used to bolt the drill down to a wooden platform at the back of the MiniMax. Being corded I don't have to worry about planing long boards, but Al's right that the R&D and manufacturing that's gone into today's brushless drills is actually pretty amazing and it's going to be impossible to duplicate that in trying to find motors to build into whatever device you want to sell, since your volumes will be hundreds of thousands lower (maybe tens of thousands lower for Festool). The only downside is, as Al documents, that many cordless drills time out and shutdown after several minutes of use.

Which also reminds me that I've seen home CNC machines that were retrofitted to use cordless brushless routers - and that they rigged up some kind of voltage converter to by-pass the battery, since a CNC operation could take an hour or more. That would probably be done for the cordless drills as well, but that would make things quite jury-rigged.

 

[Matchless]

Well, I've got to jump in and defend Al's hard work as an actual purchaser and user of the LP feeder.  I have all manner of feeders ranging from the large steff Maggi on my shaper to the comatic mini feeder, and I have spent many hours rigging them up to do things they were and weren't supposed to do, but one thing they all have in common that the LP improves on is ease of setup.  I can clamp the feeder on my bandsaw table in about a minute, and it easily and quickly adjusts to resaw different thicknesses of wood- a BIG deal.  Any other commercially available feeder you have to spend 5-15 minutes readjusting for any wood size discrepancies over 1/4".  I searched for years looking for a consumer grade bandsaw feeder option, and the LP was the only viable option I could find (I welcome any of you to share your bandsaw power feeder mounting solutions) and I'm very happy with its performance.  For reference, commercial resaw bandsaw feeders start at about $900, I believe.  I also use it on the tablesaw and have been very satisfied with its performance, though setting up any feeder on the saw is a finicky operation.  What puts it head and shoulders over drilling a mount for the comatic feeder, is not having to crawl under your saw with a socket wrench whilst balancing the awkward weight of the feeder with one arm above the table while you try to get four bolts, washers, and nuts tightened down or loosened.  The Autocut was the other option I was considering, but given the zero track record, made in China aspect, price, and questionable actual existence of the tool (look around the web for angry comments from all the backers that have gotten ghosted and ripped off). Anyone who actually uses their shop to make money will appreciate this tool, and understand the price it sells for.

 

[ChuckM]

Interesting read.  Then just this morning I came across this:  https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/smitool/auto-cut-2023-easy-auto-rip-cut-on-your-table-saw?ref=2h8zqv&utm_source=jellop&ja=jcf&utm_term=001.jcf&utm_content=AutoCut-CB03&utm_medium=facebook&utm_id=fb&fbclid=IwAR0VEd7BK6KIfEPVBavCUIHfbnPkjichU_VKlu1wyclJfq5uhxK0sJfFRjw

Note:  I am not endorsing.  I am not involved.  I am not an investor / backer / pledger.

Peter

The kickstarter seems to have raised:
CA$ 157,952
pledged of CA$ 12,000 goal
191
backer

480 units out of 600 are left and the expected delivery is said to be July. Maybe we'd see some user reviews later this year If and when the fundraiser does honor his promises and make deliveries.

For untested and unknown products, I'd rather pay a premium when they actually come to the market than trying to save some money as a backer. Many product developments even by established and reputed merchants can experience delays.

 

[alladd]

Thanks for the testimonial from Matchless, which I'm just now seeing! I think many Little Proteus users have been similarly happy with the little bugger. Homely as it is, it has the element of surprise in working so well.

I'm pleased to say the Little Proteus will soon be more respectable looking, with a  sleeker, more up-scale look. Aluminum extrusions and phenolic faced baltic birch plywood replace baltic birch plywood for several parts, and the gears are 3d printed ABS plastic instead of plywood. Functionally there's very little difference, though the new model is even lighter weight, has a slightly greater gear reduction (both good things!), and  looks a lot more "professional".  The drive shaft is now hex, for an easier positive grip in the drill chuck. A 3d printed plastic shell fully encloses the gears. It will include a magnetically attached dust collection hood as standard equipment. It also has some more  adjustability because of the extrusions that make it even more adaptable to odd uses.

I'll be posting a video soon of it working on a jointer, which it can do because the gear box position on its holder can be quickly moved several inches on the extrusion holder. As in other installations, it mounts on the jointer in under a minute.

I'll be either holding the price, or reducing it a bit. It will be available only as a finished machine, perhaps with some optional accessories. I hope to have units ready to ship by mid November or so. Here are some photos.

 

[smorgasbord]

Nice!

 

[ChuckM]

[thumbs up] [thumbs up]

 

[alladd]

Here's the video of the new prototype on a jointer:

Use of a power feeder on a jointer requires fairly straight stock, and thicker is better unless it's very straight. But at less than a minute to mount and light enough to mount on top of the jointer fence,  for many woodworkers the Little Proteus will be the best feeder, by far, for use on a jointer.

 

[waho6o9]

Great way to save your fingers, good job!

 

[mkasdin]

See if you can 3D print the parts. Do a cad drawing first to align the parts and then prototype. Everything has a market would probably go with a double set of smaller wheels and an auxiliary fence that sits taller for the TS. For ripping boards you would need to swap out the wheel assembly and have a feather board or a pinch roller on the back of the table. Looks viable but bringing a product to market is hard unless your established and even then not simple.

 

[Mini Me]

I sort of got involved in a project that was taken to China for manufacturing and the outcome was not nice. The owner of the IP spent a lot of money (he wasn't short of it by any means) and the Chinese told him to take a hike after the manufacturing got going as they were going to sell it themselves but they would give him a bigger discount if he wanted to buy any of the production. In Oz we have perhaps a closer insight to manufacturing in Asia/China/Taiwan and I looked at getting a product made in China myself but assembled in Oz from parts made in different factories so the manufacturer(s) did not see a complete item after that episode. I have a mate who gets camper trailers made in China and he has changed factories several times because they won't produce what he wants instead they do it the way they want. He visits China before any shipment is exported to check their work and even then he often has problems.

 

[alladd]

Thanks, sounds like good advice, --and the direction I'm headed. No sub has enough info to know what the hell they're working on.

I realize the idea could still be stolen. At least I have a head of steam associating the product with me.

 

[Mini Me]

The idea will be stolen if someone sees a market for it. I held patents for a product and we bought in an advisor who had worldwide marketing and distribution experience to advise us as we had zero ideas on that aspect of things. Despite the patents he decided that I wasn't needed so he changed the design but used the same concepts and it was sold worldwide and may still be but I have dropped out of that circle of interest and my need to know went with it. Patents at the level a single person operates at are a waste of time and money as they can't be defended without years of litigation and very deep pockets and I doubt your power feeder would not qualify for patent protection due to it being sold already.