Lot's of Domino bashing going on out there

[HowardH]

I don't know why folks bash this wonderful tool.  Some of the other forums are filled with guys who think the Domino is over-kill, over-hyped, over-priced and generally over-everything. They obviously don't own one.  It may be more than just petty jealousy but Festool gets generally bashed by those who can't afford it or are too short sighted to understand that Festool quality is cheaper in the long run.  My Dom does everything I could ask of it so far and it appears to be perfectly aligned right out of the box.  Maybe I was lucky in that regard considering the other posts around here.  My edge guide pins align my edges spot on, so close that you couldn't measure any offset.  I have a biscuit joiner and it doesn't do nearly the alignment job the Dom does.  Maybe it is overkill for face frames but I like the fact they fit so tight that it allows me to make sure everything is perfect before glue up and they don't move around.  I think I'll keep mine, thank you.  ;D

 

[clintholeman]

I don't know why folks bash this wonderful tool.  Some of the other forums are filled with guys who think the Domino is over-kill, over-hyped, over-priced and generally over-everything. They obviously don't own one.  It may be more than just petty jealousy but Festool gets generally bashed by those who can't afford it or are too short sighted to understand that Festool quality is cheaper in the long run.  My Dom does everything I could ask of it so far and it appears to be perfectly aligned right out of the box.  Maybe I was lucky in that regard considering the other posts around here.  My edge guide pins align my edges spot on, so close that you couldn't measure any offset.  I have a biscuit joiner and it doesn't do nearly the alignment job the Dom does.  Maybe it is overkill for face frames but I like the fact they fit so tight that it allows me to make sure everything is perfect before glue up and they don't move around.  I think I'll keep mine, thank you.  ;D

You know what they say - the grass is always greener, in this case FesTool green.  I've been using mine for a while now and find it makes me money every day - a lot of it in ways I didn't even think about before I had one.

I've never had a moments alignment problem.  In fact no problem at all - other than a couple of user learning curve booboos.

I really don't think it is overkill for face frames.  Using Domino one can make a m&t joint - one of the strongest known, both on the frame and also attaching the frame to the carcase.  I think there are many people out there who simply don't get it.  It is the system.  Personally, I'm glad most don't - I love competing against guys with "conventional" shops.  I get to make a living where they will go broke.  And Domino contributes to that in a big way!

Let them complain - you know what they say about not being the lead sled dog...

 

[Lou Miller]

Howard, you just have to ignore the posts on other forums when it comes to Festool. I spent a ridiculous amount of time debating Festool on other Forums. I finally realized its a lost cause. Now I'm just gonna try and answer direct questions and then move on.

I'm not one of the people that think Festool is flawless. I understand the value that some of their tools bring to the table, but I can also see some of the downsides too (albeit there really aren't many at all). However, too many people have drawn a line in the sand when it comes to Festool. People have taken sides and they won't listen at all to what the other side has to say. Both sides are guilty, but the detractors are just ridiculous with it, IMO. There are a handful of people that just start spouting off ignorant comments the moment they see a Festool post. The funniest part is that most of these people have never even picked up a Festool product and tried it out. They just bash away without taking the time to inform themselves.

Bottomline is that it'll never change. The topic of Festool brings out the worst in people on general woodworking forums. Myself included...

 

[Daviddubya]

I think Sawmill Creek has gotten past the irrational posts about Festool and the fights over Festool vs competitors.  I find that forum to be one of the best on the Internet for my interests.  And, of course, this one as well.  It took some threats of expulsion by the forum owner to get the situation under control at SMC, but it seems pretty calm there now.  There have been threads about the Domino without much in the way of nutty retorts.

I used to go to Woodnet, but the behavior of too many folks there is so out of line, I simply stopped going there.  I have also stopped posting to threads that seem to be brewing into a fight - about anything - but Festool does seem to draw a crowd.  Peace!!!

 

[Tezzer]

Spot on Howard. I have no idea why they want to rubbish something they have never see or used. Thats why i like it here ;D Good blokes and we all love our Festool ;D

I dont bother posting anything Domino related on any other board now because i cant stand the crap.

Once i posted a method of using the Domino to cut a traditional tenon on another forum and WOW was i flamed. Comments like "why on earth would you spend $1200 for a machine to cut a tenon when you could do it by hand" It was hard to get through their thick brains that it was just an experiment to show thatDomi is more versatile than whats first thought.

Anyway lets keep all the good stuff for this forum ;D ;D ;D

 

[Dan Clark]

I tend to be a bit of a fan.  (Really?!?)  But like most of you, I realize that all Festool tools aren't perfect and they don't cover all of my needs.  Some tools like the C12 are (IMO) under-appreciated.  Some, like the TS55 and the sanders, are excellent and are appreciated for their excellence.  And, then we have the Domino - a unique tool that carves its own niche.

IMO, the tone of Festool posts on other forums has changed in the last year.  A little over a year ago, I was a Festool newbie.  When I read Festool posts, I sensed a hesitency from Festool owners and a very negative attitude from non-Festool owners.  Festool posts were met with negative reactions like "overpriced", "it's not the tool", "elitist", blah, blah.   

Now, there are still some negative posts and some "uninformed" folks who think a Domino is an overpriced biscuit joiner.  But I sense the attitude changing.  Less insecurity and more, "very nice tools!".  Some people can't afford them and say it (always a good reason not to buy something), but still recognize the quality. 

Overall, I see many more posts like Lou's - realistic appraisal.  I.e., very high quality, but sometimes not perfect.  IMO, That's the way it should be.

Regards,

Dan.

 

[HowardH]

It's good to be among friends, especially those who understand the concept of value.  At the moment, I am building some Adirondack chairs and the difference in the accuracy of the cut parts before having my TS-55 and afterwards are night and day.  Having the MFT 1080 made a big difference by allowing me to clamp some parts in ways I didn't have before that make assembly much easier.  My wife appreciates not having the dust cloud in the garage that coats everything.  Let those others say what they will.  We know better... 

 

[Loren Hedahl]

I noticed the Festool and EZ booths were almost next to each other at the Puyallup fairgrounds woodworking show last weekend.

Both had interesting, informative professional demo's and there was no 'air of animosity' that I could see.

I mentioned to the EZ fellow that this was the first time I had seen the EZ stuff, but I already had invested in his competitor's system.  He congratulated me on a good choice and went on to show a couple of attributes that might be better on his system, i.e., stronger guide rails, non-use of propriatary consumables, etc.

The demo of the Domino I saw centered around a question a fellow had about joining boards up in a panel.  His present method left him with a lot of planing/sanding because of misalignment.  The domino demo got them so well aligned none of us could even feel a ridge at the joint.  Several went away as new believers.

I didn't hear any bashing at either site. 

Loren

 

[mot]

Well, I'm one of "those" guys that has the EZ system, and the Festool guides.  I have an EZ in my garage with a PC saw setup to always go with it.  I use it to knock down sheet goods.  It's a good system.  I've been playing with my MFT and TS55 and REALLY like it as well.  I have a Domino being shipped, and I own a Dowelmax.  I just like tools.  I have a healthy tool budget because this is my hobby!  I don't have a 50K motorhome in the driveway or a classic hobby car in the garage.  I like woodworking tools and Festool has been one of those tool companies that satisfies my desire.  Everything that is good has detractors.  I'm going to tell you all a little story:

I participated in a seminar on neck injuries sustained in motor vehicle accidents.  It was a continuing education seminar for family doctors.  At the beginning of the seminar everyone was asked, "How many of you are comfortable or very comfortable with assessment and treatment of neck injuries sustained in motor vehicle accidents?"  That group was asked to stand and their names were recorded.  They made up just over 90% of the room.

The seminar continued over the weekend.  At the end of it, we gave all the family docs a spelling test.  Not about terminology from the seminar.  Just spelling everyday words in English.

We asked all that felt they scored 90% or better to stand up.  Of this group, 100% of the "comfortable or very comfortable" group stood up.  There were a few new ones.  The average score in this group was 70% with nobody scoring 90% or above.  Of the group that felt that they didn't get 90%, the average mark was 90% with no mark below 80%.

The point we were trying to make is this.  The less someone knows about something, the more confident they tend to be in commenting on it.  This tends to be the general reason why there are so much discussions on forums, and coffee shops on topics that NOBODY at the table has anything more than pamphlet knowledge about.

Case in point:  Any Festool, Sawstop, Dowelmax discussions, or any other premium in both quality and price tool.  Or, for that matter, anything that is sold as a "safety device."  So, I'll leave you with a quote - "Never argue with a fool.  Someone watching may not be able to tell the difference."  ~Author Unknown

 

[mr_hockey]

Mot,

I too own both EZ & Festool saw systems. And I like both of them!

Unfortunately there are zealots on both sides (just a few) and their behavior poisons the waters.

Too often I will read a really good thread on a forum, only to find some idiot spewing flames and false information...and the thread takes a turn for the worse and intelligent discussions vanish  :'( :'( :'(

As far as the Domino, I have had mine for about 3 weeks and love it.

The biggest issue I have is the system is so precise that it requires the user to be precise as well. It's not nearly as forgiving as my biscuit joiner. Every little issues I have found (slight misalignment...) can be traced back to "pilot error" 

As far as the Domino bashers...  I just smile and continue to enjoy using my new tool. I kind of feel sorry for them, with their closed minds, they will never experience the joy of using such a great tool. 

ps Have you seen the new Bridge for the EZ??? Any thoughts on it???

 

[Ted Miller]

I hate to say it but it mostly boils done to one thing, cost. Wood guys want a tool to operate like a Porche but cost like a Yugo.

If you can't afford it then it must be bad, how dare you say that the Domi can do better joints then my hand dovetails. If I hear this one more time I am going to scream. I also heard the other day on a forum that making joints faster and better is making are furniture into IKEA like stuff. I am still trying to figure that one out. We all work in a different way so the same goes for our tools we decide to use.

I have seen guys on forums knock the Domi and a lot of Festool items, and months later after using or seeing a demo on these tools they are sorry for taking out the wrong end of their anatomy. I was at a job site and I used a few Festools and I was sold after working with them for two straight days.

I have many Festool items now and so far they have not replaced one tool in my shop. All my Festools just make my shop and my work that much better. I purchase tools as I need them for the next or current job I have underway...

 

[mot]

I looked at the bridge and I think it's an exciting addition to that system.  Frankly, for my sheet goods cutting table, it might just be the ticket.  It seems very similar to the system on the MFT, bringing the wood to the guide, rather than the guide to the wood.  It's worth taking a peak anyway.

 

[Tinker]

I had seen several adds for Festo tools in various mags for quite some time.  The adds always showed a circular saw which seemed to be constructed with this funny looking plate on the bottom.  i would look a the pics and read a little about the accuracy of the Festo tools and think how clumsey that saw looked with the rediculous attachment on the bottom.  i wondered how long i would have such a tool before i would figure out a way to get rid of that plate on the bottom..  And then, one day I walked into my toy store and saw that "rediculous looking" saw set up on an even more rediculous looking table that looked ike it had been dreamed up in a Swiss cheese factory.  i looked the whole setup over for a few minutes, asked a few questions and within minutes, i was sold.  i walked out of there the proud owner of an MFT 1080 and an order for an AFT 55.  It had taken less than 15 minutes for me to be converted and i have not regreted one of my "overpriced" purchases since. I am only a hobbyist, but my next "overpriced and over-rated" addition will be the Domino. i won't make any money as a result, but i expect to save a lot of time as well as have a lot of fun as a result.
Tinker

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Everyone,
I'm very glad someone started this discussion!

OK, we are talking about Domino bashing, but in my opinion the Domino is just the latest target in a long story of bashing these tools and the people who like them.  It gets complicated, because different people have different motivations, but they are happy to come together temporarily for the purposes of bashing someone!

I know this well, because I've been in the middle of a few scrapes in the past couple of years, where things get personal even when I try to tone it down.  I won't specify other forums here, but I'll just say that, since I created the Festool Owners Group, I've become a target.  The idealist in my tends to say, "Try try to explain your situation.  Maybe that will smooth things out."  Well, it hasn't worked so far, so I don't know why I believe it!  My goal these days is to try to remove myself from the strife, but sometimes it's not easy.

Anyway, I'm glad this discussion has come up, because I've been thinking lately about the best strategies for dealing with these attitudes (or not).

Stay in touch,
Matthew

 

[clintholeman]

Everyone,
I'm very glad someone started this discussion!

OK, we are talking about Domino bashing, but in my opinion the Domino is just the latest target in a long story of bashing these tools and the people who like them.  It gets complicated, because different people have different motivations, but they are happy to come together temporarily for the purposes of bashing someone!

I know this well, because I've been in the middle of a few scrapes in the past couple of years, where things get personal even when I try to tone it down.  I won't specify other forums here, but I'll just say that, since I created the Festool Owners Group, I've become a target.  The idealist in my tends to say, "Try try to explain your situation.  Maybe that will smooth things out."  Well, it hasn't worked so far, so I don't know why I believe it!  My goal these days is to try to remove myself from the strife, but sometimes it's not easy.

Anyway, I'm glad this discussion has come up, because I've been thinking lately about the best strategies for dealing with these attitudes (or not).

Stay in touch,
Matthew

Ignore them.  The more successful you are, the more people will want to try an drag you down - thankfully it a very small percentage.  We seem to admire success only from afar, and not in people we actually know, or can know.  As they say, the best revenge is living well.  there is little or nothing you can do Matthew.  You are doing a terrific job and if folks don't like it, then... well you know ;D

I'm not talking about constructive criticism or suggestions here - I'm sure Matthew knows the type of person to whom I am referring.  What is really cool about the way you run the forum Matthew, is how willing you are to listen to suggestions.

Non Carboirundum Illigitimae!

 

[Ted Miller]

Nothing turns me off more than someone bashing a tool when they don't own one or have never used it. 

The Festool/EZ thing really got my goat. The EZ guys were just down right angry at the Festie users...

 

[Rocker]

I have been on the receiving end of Domino bashing in another forum, where one or two members seemed to make it their life's work to snap at the heels of anyone who posted about the Domino. I think to some extent it was fuelled by xenophobia, in that the Domino is manufactured in Europe, and was launched there and in Australia about a year before its US launch. I have owned my Domino for about nine months and could not be happier with it, except for the fact that the index pins are not adjustable.

David

 

[Tezzer]

Welcome to the Forum Rocker ;D ;D

 

[Daviddubya]

...Anyway, I'm glad this discussion has come up, because I've been thinking lately about the best strategies for dealing with these attitudes (or not).

Stay in touch,
Matthew

Matthew - The very best advice is what you got from Clint - ignore them.  People get no fun from fighting if you don't fight back.  My other piece of advice is to stay out of forums with people that are not nice to each other.

 

[Dan Clark]

Matthew,

Clint's advice is excellent - ignore them.  Your success (and Festool's success) is the greatest revenge.  This forum and Festool have done extremely well in the last year.  To rephrase an old saying, "Those that can... Do.  Those that can't... Well, they just whine!"  ;D

Regards,

Dan.