Lot's of Domino bashing going on out there

[LaserGecko]

I posted a link to a picture (

Warning: you may be attacked by my security system if you view that pic.) and a few paragraphs about the wonders of Festool to the Halloween-L mailing list. There'd be a lot more space in my garage if the skeletons, pneumatics, and other Hallowe'en stuff wasn't there and that stuff was a large part of my decision to purchase.

The bottom of the post read: "WARNING: If you've ever used a biscuit joiner or dowels to join two
pieces of wood, DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES see nor read about the..."  It was funny. The people who get it were in love with the whole system. Then, there are people who post things like:

LMAO  Did you see the price on these things?  You could buy 3 or 4 Porter Cable biscuit joiners for that price!  And the price of the biscuits?!?!?

Of course, that's a guy who told me that I was wrong for telling people on another list the differences between real barbecue and grilled food (like steak).  : Four cents? Expensive? I guess if you don't know the difference between a biscuit joint and an M&T, you might think they're the same tool, but this was a prime example of "fingers in motion without brain in gear".

Never argue with an idiot. They'll pull you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

I think a couple of people are a little annoyed...because now they have a few new purchases on the horizon.

Heck, this is definitely a "what's your time worth" proposition. Anyone can make good barbecue by digging a hole in the ground, lining it with bricks, building a fire, burning it to coals, etc. I would love to try that some day...when I have that kind of time. 

 

[CloseShave]

Hello all,

I joined this forum this evening for this very reason! Kind of interesting to see a thread on the topic. I just got so tired of the nasty over the top comments, then noticed someone posted the FOG website. So, here I am!

I'm a new Domino owner, my first Festool product, and I can already see its not going to be my last! I've been been on the fence with Festool for almost 2 years, then I saw a Domino video clip and it helped me make the decision to plunge into the world of Festool. My approach toward WW'ing is the hybrid approach where I use handtools mixed w/powertools. The Domino saves me an incredible amount of time and makes excellent fitting joints. That time savings allows me to focus on areas of WW'ing I'm particularly interested in, like flattening a board top w/my Lie Nielsen's (LN) w/out compromising the quality of other parts of the piece I'm working on. WW'ing for me is a hobby and I have precious little time so I want to work on areas I get the most enjoyment from. I intend to continue to do hand mortises, but the Domino allows me to be selective about what joints to hand mortise.

I have seen the same type of negative arguments about the cost of LN planes versus a used Stanley. Quite frankly, I am very partial to the LN b/c its well made and enhances my enjoyment of WW'ing. The heated arguments about LN have subsided in the last year or two, but someone always bring up the cost or arrogance factor. I suspect the bellicose voices will eventually quite down in regards to the Domino.

So, now that I've babbled on for far to long I'll go back into the shadows. Thanks so much for this forum!

Regards, Steve

 

[clintholeman]

Never argue with an idiot.

I believe there is a saying about trying to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig ;D

 

[Dan Clark]

Steve,

Welcome to the forum!  There's a great bunch of people here (me excluded) with extensive experience and knowledge (me excluded).  And, most people have a great sense of humor (me excluded)!  ;D

Regards,

Dan.

 

[Ken Milhinch]

First post so I will try not to be too contentious. From what I have seen and read, some people react to the pricing, but most tend to get upset at the sometimes evangelical preaching that goes on about the Domino. I have a number of Festool tools, and I think the plunge cut saw is about the best thing I have used for breaking down large panels, and the Rotex sander is an undoubted leader in its field. I recently bought the 1400 router, and after using it a few times, I am very pleased with it too. The MFT  has its detractors, but so far I like that too. Having said all that, I would not consider parting with so much money for a loose tenon cutter, in fact I have just bought a Lamello because I think it will serve my needs better. I can understand that in a small production environment, the speed that the Domino offers may well be a factor in assessing cost versus return, but time saved is not an argument for hobby work.  Bottom line....criticism of the Domino is not necessarily criticism of the Festool range in its entirety, and is sometimes in response to the over the top adoration. (The Sawstop situation is somewhat similar I think.)

 

[Tezzer]

I would not consider parting with so much money for a loose tenon cutter, in fact I have just bought a Lamello because I think it will serve my needs better........

Bottom line....criticism of the Domino is not necessarily criticism of the Festool range in its entirety, and is sometimes in response to the over the top adoration.

Kenmil, depending on which Lamello you have, the top of the range isnt much cheaper than a Domino and the Domino wins "hands down" as the better and more versatile machine. And i know that because i have used both for long periods of time. No contest.

And as for the "the over the top adoration" thats why i like this forum because we know just how great this machine is and we do "Adore" it and feel comfortable in telling others with out the uninformed crap we get from other forums.

You should stop and think for a minute if all the Domino owners rave and adore the machine their must be something special about it.

My advice is to cut your losses and sell the Lamello and get a Domino. You will be thrilled and wont ever look back.

 

[Ken Milhinch]

Thank you for your thoroughly predictable response Tezzer. I wasn't criticising the Domino, I merely said the Lamello better suited my needs, and it was definitely cheaper. In other words - to each his own. Actually even on the quite heated threads elsewhere, I don't think anyone has said that the Domino does a bad job at what it was designed for. Most of the slanging involves debates about whether a Domino, or biscuit joiner or pocket hole jig is best - or some combination of those. Again, whatever suits the individual. There is also the brand loyalty (or purchase justification) which is sometimes in our subconscious. If we have bought a product, and are happy with it, anyone suggesting something else is as good or better, sort of acts like a criticism of our buying decision, so we jump to defend the product, when in fact we are defending our decision to buy it. All very psychological and boring really.

I would be interested in hearing how you find the Domino "versatile". As I understand it, (haven't used one) it cuts mortises, period. Am I missing something ?

 

[LaserGecko]

Quick question: I've never used either one other than playing around in the store.

Why does a biscuit joiner suit your needs better?

I don't think Tezzer's response was "predictable" at all. He has actually used both of them and offered an informed opinion based on his experience with both.

 

[Ken Milhinch]

Predictable because Tezzer is a fellow Aussie, and we met on another forum. It suits my needs better because if I want to edge join two or more pieces of timber, biscuits and good quality glue is more than strong enough. If I wanted to use a spline joint, my biscuit joiner is more than capable of cutting that too. If I want to join end to edge I will cut a tenon on my table saw and mortise on my mortiser. I therefore have no use for a loose tenon cutter, no matter how well made it undoubtedly is. I am a hobby woodworker, so the time saving of a Domino is of no consequence to me.

 

[Gary K]

  Ken, I have been following this thread and agree with most of what you are saying, especially the over the top adoration that is around. Although the dust is cleared and we ALL can take a down to earth look at this new tool, some of the exicitable are still hovering above.
  I think in the beginning, alot of people were "turned off" by the way the "message" was told. Therefore, it was the messenger not the message that was at fault.
  The threads on alot of forums about the Domino are actually interesting now that the hoopla is basically gone.
  It has been awhile since the posters have been telling me to throw out all my tools because the Domino is all I will need.
    There are times that I actually consider buying the Domino because I do like using great tools.....just haven't justified it yet.
    I will wait maybe a year or so and then weigh the pro's and con's of this new tool. After all, it is just a hobby, and I got plenty of time.  (I hope)  :
    Gary K.
 

 

[ROb McGilp]

Well,
Since this is a Festool forum and people do love their tools here, I guess its only reasonable that someone(s) responsible bring us down to Earth as hard as possible. I think you did the trick..can we stop now?

 

[Tezzer]

  Ken, I have been following this thread and agree with most of what you are saying, especially the over the top adoration that is around. Although the dust is cleared and we ALL can take a down to earth look at this new tool, some of the exicitable are still hovering above.
 

So what is that suppposed to mean? I love my Domino and will talk about it until the cows come home. Should i just shut my mouth and not post anything about it just to please a handfull of people. If you and Ken see the word "Domino" in a thread header, i suggest you dont open it, that way you will both save your selves the grief you are obviously going through 

 

[Brent b]

Ken, with all due respect, you claim to not wanting to not be contentious, then use phrases like 'evangelical preaching', 'over the top adoration', 'predictable response', and 'psychological and boring'.  This  wording seems contentious to me, but I'm American and am wondering about cultural differences and assumptions.
-Also, when something increases our range of possibilities, wether it be a person, tool, knowledge, skill, or experience a likely outcome is excitement, adoration, and love.  This expansion of ourselves makes us feel good.  Why step on someones good feeling?  What do you gain from that?

 

[Ray Newman]

Bashing?

We "ain't seen nothin' yet".

Wait until the KAPEX becomes available in the US....

 

[Brice Burrell]

Bashing?

We "ain't seen nothin' yet".

Wait until the KAPEX becomes available in the US....

;D ;D ;D I can't wait!

And please gentlemen, lets not bash one another.

 

[Ken Milhinch]

Ken, with all due respect, you claim to not wanting to not be contentious, then use phrases like 'evangelical preaching', 'over the top adoration', 'predictable response', and 'psychological and boring'.  This  wording seems contentious to me, but I'm American and am wondering about cultural differences and assumptions.
-Also, when something increases our range of possibilities, wether it be a person, tool, knowledge, skill, or experience a likely outcome is excitement, adoration, and love.  This expansion of ourselves makes us feel good.  Why step on someones good feeling?  What do you gain from that?

Brent,
I explained my use of the phrase "predictable response" already. Terry and I have debated some of this before elsewhere. I don't believe I am stepping on anyone's delight at owning a Domino. I addressed the OP's point about why so many people are bashing this tool, and endeavoured to point out that it was not the tool per se, but in some cases the price, and in most cases the abundant happiness (now that's not contentious is it ?: ) displayed by the devotees. This tool seems to have generated a degree of tool worship I haven't seen in anything else except perhaps the Sawstop. For my part, I am happy to be a Festool owner, but not all of their tools are to my taste.

 

[Tezzer]

Brent,
I explained my use of the phrase "predictable response" already. Terry and I have debated some of this before elsewhere.

No we havnt. I have made comment to a post of yours on smc but we have never debated anything.

 

[ROb McGilp]

Brent,
I explained my use of the phrase "predictable response" already. Terry and I have debated some of this before elsewhere. I don't believe I am stepping on anyone's delight at owning a Domino. I addressed the OP's point about why so many people are bashing this tool, and endeavoured to point out that it was not the tool per se, but in some cases the price, and in most cases the abundant happiness (now that's not contentious is it ?: ) displayed by the devotees. This tool seems to have generated a degree of tool worship I haven't seen in anything else except perhaps the Sawstop. For my part, I am happy to be a Festool owner, but not all of their tools are to my taste.
[/quote]

So, because some people either like the Domino, or can afford the Domino, or can do things with a Domino that a biscuit joiner can't do, or all of the above, this is sufficient reason for you and Mr K to rail on in the hope that:
a) you'll feel better for having been incredibly clever, avoiding getting one too early as the sheep have.
b. you'll feel happy because you've made everyone who has Domino feel unhappy and besides negativity rules OK!

You and Garry are in the wrong place and possibly the wrong time.

 

[Ken Milhinch]

Wow, where did that come from ?
Are you feeling so insecure about the purchase of your Domino that you have to attack the individual ?
Have I stumbled into a refuge for the Festool owners who feel so precious about their tools that they can't tolerate debate ?

On the subject of debate;
Terry,
On checking, I find you are correct in saying we had not debated the Domino at SMC. My recollection of that was faulty and I apologise for misrepresenting it.

 

[Llap Goch]

Let me start this by explaining that I am but a simple man who gets enormous pleasure from superbly designed, meticulously engineered tools which do exactly as it says on the tin. Not just Festools but Lamello, Fein and Metabo etc.

I also get enormous pleasure, nay delight, in spending my children’s inheritance and recall, with frightening clarity as I hand over the money on my next purchase, the times my three sons drank my Single Malt, left lights on all over the house, clogged my razor blades, brought home the most beautiful girls, left the toilet seat up and left a ring around the bath.

The fact that they are unquestionably more handsome and more intelligent than me merely adds impetus to my mission to build the highest stack of Systainers in Wales. I laugh and giggle all the way home with my tools like the demented fool I am and, when I order from Germany, I wait for the man from DHL with all the fervour and anticipation of the Circle of Wagons waiting for the 7th Cav to come to the rescue. It is pathetic I know and I do not need reminding of my disgraceful behaviour. I am at peace with my dastardly self and immune to helpful suggestions such as, “would it help Pat, if Father Crilly came around for a chat?” It would not.

So when I buy a Domino, or the latest dent into my sons comfort fund the Kapex, I do not give a fig if there are those who think that I, and others, are mad to spend so much on a tool and then speak/write enthusiastically about it. I don’t care. What I do care about is those who criticise and dismiss a tool without having ever seen one or used one. I am simple, they are unreasonable.

I had a Lamello biscuit joiner. It was, and still is, an exquisite tool. Superbly designed, meticulously assembled and absolutely fit for purpose. Then along came the Domino. I had initially considered it as a “£500 wobbly angle grinder” but that was when I was a true oik and had never seen one in action. I was however intrigued. A demo in Germany blew my preconceived ideas into the wind and I had to have one.  Systainer Mountain had a new contour.

So, once she had arrived I did back to back tests with the Lamello and for the sort of work that I do (mostly rubbish but it pleases me) there was no contest and the biscuit joiner just gathered dust and had to go. It was too good and too expensive to just sit there. I then had so many questions from folks about the Domino that I probably did become over enthusiastic about her. So what?  It is a fabulous tool. It staggers me that someone’s unbridled enthusiasm over a tool can cause so much offence or disdain.

I initially thought that it was the Green Eyed God, and that was borne out by some rather interesting emails I received, but I had a long think, half a bottle of Highland Park and realised slowly that it was reverse enthusiasm. Or the enthusiastic promotion of anything to reduce someone’s pleasure of owning a tool that the author of the post does not own themselves. So we are all enthusiasts in our own way!

So post away fellow enthusiasts. I will reserve my right to either read or dismiss a post as I wish having just realised what the delete button is for. In the meantime I will pop into the shed and lovingly feed my Domino with some Pfaff sewing machine oil and get stuck into learning about how to properly use my Kapex. And of course wait for the enthusiastic posts that will question my sanity for purchasing a Kapex when the Jinglang Crappex is only $59. No need to bother.  I know I am mad, you merely suspect it. ;D

Regards from the Valley

Pat