Mafell P1cc Jigsaw

[Job and Knock]

Yes, Fein invented the multi tool and held patents freezing out competitors til about 2010.

And it looks like they, in conjunction with Bosch, are doing it again. Since March this year all new Fein and Bosch multitools available in the UK have been supplied with the StarLock system tool mounting. To date StarLock tooling (a patented design) is only available from those two manufacturers and the new tools won't use the older tooling, so if you buy a new tool you are locked into the more expensive blades fom Fein and Bosch. Maybe not much of a problem if you are using a few blades a year but on the current project we've got 4 or 5 trades using a dozen or more multitools so it very soon adds up. I'm currently using 4 to 6 blades a month at the moment as are two other carpenters. We've already sent back one  new Fein Multimaster and requested an older/different model from the dealer (ended up with an new old-stock Bosch GOP). I don't see us being alone doing that.

 

[antss]

Yes, those two did announce a new ,cough, partnership for StarLoc.  Was announced earlier this spring.

There are some performance gains as well as practical aspects like not being able to use certain blades on lower powered tools, so it's not a total money grab. 

Though you can bet that was considered.

In fairness, Bosch makes some damn good blades.  Every independent test I've seen confirms this and if you factor in longevity vs. price against other blades they often end up being cheaper measured on a per cut basis.  For what I do, the Fein blades work better/longer than the Bosch , so it really depends on what YOU are cutting.  I've also used the chingchongchnag eBay blades as well as the dremel and cheapo blades from Harbor Freight. I think their diamond and carbide offerings are better than the Fein stuff - but I'm not using them day in and out at a stone fabrication shop, so will never wear one out.  Making the price of a premimum one not very compelling to me. 

It's like any other tooling really, you can get something that cuts for 10quid or a 100 and many in between. They all cut, but some represent better value for the money.

 

[Alec Buscemi]

[member=40772]Holmz[/member] innovation is more important than competition.

 

[Holmz]

No idea.
I thought when you changed the design slightly  then patents don't stand?

Did fein have a patent  for the multitool?
Was glad to see  them knocked of their perch with that tool. Only a matter of time before mafell is too.

Fein, Festool, Bosch, Metabo  and  Mafell. All made in  Germany afaik.

Whether you are glad to see them knocked off their perch or not. The saw is revolutionary in the pendulum action. So I do not think that the perch is in any danger.

It is not like the saw is only marketed good, it is actually a danged good good saw.

 

[peter halle]

I see the potential for this thread to go personal so I will jump it and add:

"Let's not make this personal.  We are only talking about tools."

Peter

 

[Holmz]

Thanks, but I have not been personally offended yet [member=1674]Peter Halle[/member] .

[member=52048]Alec Buscemi[/member]  to be sure, Innovation is good. Putting an LED strobe and D handle on it are not the same "innovative" as the pendulum mechanism and blade clamp mechanism.

 

[peter halle]

Thanks, but I have not been personally offended yet [member=1674]Peter Halle[/member] .

[member=52048]Alec Buscemi[/member]  to be sure, Innovation is good. Putting an LED strobe and D handle on it are not the same "innovative" as the pendulum mechanism and blade clamp mechanism.

Thank you for your notice.  I worry about the entire community at whole and also those outside the community who read posts.

Peter

 

[Alec Buscemi]

Not sure about your post [member=40772]Holmz[/member]. Perhaps you can link it logically to your comment about competition being good for the consumer and to my reply that innovation is more important.

 

[McNally Family]

[member=3437]dovetail[/member] wrote; "The Mafell may cut deep and square, that's great, but the Bosch is near as good and for the majority of everything else(actually everything else), in my hand the Bosch is king".

Never heard of a tool being described as superior, by calling it "near as good", as it's competitor.

Bosch is a good jigsaw.  Heck, they essentially owned the category for years (my first jigsaw was a Bosch "D" handled version).  But for me, superior engineering is like tool porn, and in this category, IMO, Mafell wears the crown.

Perhaps someday Mafell will bring this model back;
http://www.toolstop.co.uk/mafell-stab65e-900w-oscillating-jigsaw-with-built-in-light-p5787

 

[Cheese]

Competition and innovation are both good...competition without innovation would mean we would still be driving around in Model T's, innovation without competition would mean we would still be trying to afford a Mercedes...the original automobile.

 

[Rip Van Winkle]

Yes, Fein invented the multi tool and held patents freezing out competitors til about 2010.

And it looks like they, in conjunction with Bosch, are doing it again. Since March this year all new Fein and Bosch multitools available in the UK have been supplied with the StarLock system tool mounting. To date StarLock tooling (a patented design) is only available from those two manufacturers and the new tools won't use the older tooling, so if you buy a new tool you are locked into the more expensive blades fom Fein and Bosch. Maybe not much of a problem if you are using a few blades a year but on the current project we've got 4 or 5 trades using a dozen or more multitools so it very soon adds up. I'm currently using 4 to 6 blades a month at the moment as are two other carpenters. We've already sent back one  new Fein Multimaster and requested an older/different model from the dealer (ended up with an new old-stock Bosch GOP). I don't see us being alone doing that.

The multimaster blades may be or seem expensive when compared to reciprocating or jigsaw blades, but the current cost is far less than it used to be.

My first Multimaster was a MSX636-2 model, which at the time had a list price of $250, and a street price between $150 and $200.  I purchased it before the multimasters were being sold thru major stores like Home Depot. At the time you had to purchase Fein blades, and the basic round "regular" steel blades were around $25 each. I'm not sure whether the Fein "high speed steel, hss" blades were even available yet, but I recall a price of about $50 each for the hss when they were. I remmember the offset hss steel blades were even more expensive, and according to an old price list I have had a list price of atound $80, and I don't recall a discount on those of more than 25% ffom retailers. The Fein E-cut blades when they were introduced had a price around $40 or up.

The current cost of the Fein oscillating blades according to The Toolnut website, is mostly $16 or less per blade, with many around $12. Bosch oscillating blades are even more affordable. The Bosch blades seem to be about $10 each or less, with the carbide toothed ones being $16, or less each if you buy a multi pack.

Prices in the UK seem to be about the same.

Meanwhile, good jigsaw and reciprocating saw blades have been getting more expensive, with the possible exception of the newer carbide tipped ones which in some cases have gotten more affordable.

 

[antss]

Stab 65 - what a horrible name, and an even worse looking profile.  [scared]

Bet it cuts like a dream though.

 

[Rip Van Winkle]

Stab 65 - what a horrible name, and an even worse looking profile.  [scared]

Bet it cuts like a dream though.

I don't know how it cuts, but the older Mafell jigsaw did win a design award.

 

[Holmz]

Not sure about your post [member=40772]Holmz[/member]. Perhaps you can link it logically to your comment about competition being good for the consumer and to my reply that innovation is more important.

Yes Alec...
The Festo track saw came out some decades ago, and ~10 years ago the patents ran out, and the Bosch/Mafell and Makita and deWalt all came out.

If there is a 25 year patent on the Mafell mechanism then at least we have a better jig saw now, and in 25 years we may have an update. And there could be some other clever update from another manufacturer before then.

Just putting a strobe or a handle on a saw is not the sort of innovation update I believe we are focussed on.

However from the perspective of the manufacturer they likely want to hold patents and prevent competition, or at least protect their R&D investment. So it is not like innovation gets shared around quickly.

So while we likely both concur that we like both innovation and competition, the manufacturer prefers their own innovation and less competition.

 

[Lbob131]

No idea.
I thought when you changed the design slightly  then patents don't stand?

Did fein have a patent  for the multitool?
Was glad to see  them knocked of their perch with that tool. Only a matter of time before mafell is too.

Fein, Festool, Bosch, Metabo  and  Mafell. All made in  Germany afaik.

Whether you are glad to see them knocked off their perch or not. The saw is revolutionary in the pendulum action. So I do not think that the perch is in any danger.

It is not like the saw is only marketed good, it is actually a danged good good saw.

Are the pendulum actions  on the competitors  not as good? I have an older fein  multi tool.
But my next  purchase will be the metabo cordless  multitool.

 

[Holmz]

There is no roller or guides. And the blade is not held in with an Allen head or Phillips head screw. So it is a departure from the origional sewing machine based design from Bosch.

The Metabo gear generally seems good for multi tool as well as grinders and batteries.

 

[Lbob131]

I was referring to fein being knocked off the perch  with the OMT.
But I agree  mafell  with the  current  p1cc  offering  will likely be dominating the perch for some time  with their revolutionary design.

 

[Holmz]

I see now why Alec was scratching his chin...

 

[bobfog]

I have the latest Bosch 160 jigsaw and it's an absolutely brilliant saw. I trialled it side-by-side with the Carvex and it beats it hands down for power, quality of cut and the more personal and less quantifiable "quality feel". I've also used the Mafell at a local college where I did a guest lecture/workshop on using sheet materials.

The Bosch is 95% of the tool that the Mafell is for 50% of the price. For me the Bosch is overkill for the amount of times I use a jigsaw and the low-medium accuracy of the end results I often only require of it. But if I needed the absolute last word in perfromance from a jigsaw, the Mafell would win out hands down.

 

[Job and Knock]

If I cant control the speed with the trigger and if I cant get my hand around the thing and if I can't stop the blade from moving with the one hand I am holding the jig(meaning my trigger finger) it's an 800.00 piece of metal sitting on my bench.

As a quick rebuttal of that comment:

[attachimg=1]

I've never seen the need to change the speed mid-flight. I can reiterate that the orbit action only commences when the blade is pushed in contact with the work and as you can clearly see, above, my thumb can operate the on-off switch whilst I am holding the tool normally (although I am right handed, for sinister folk it could be a lot less handy). The 3/4 grip is sufficiently good to use the tool in every circumstance I've come across to date - it just requires a slightly different approach